having some wierd bike issues

[JamieDaugherty]

Hmmmm.

What happened to the carb adjustment springs that Jamie sent you at the last moment? What did you do with the springs? Where did they go? I don't understand how your carbs were rebuilt, set up and sent back to you without the springs being installed? How is it that Jamie sent you the springs after the fact of the carburetors being sent back? I assume that the carbs were sent back to you assembled on the plenum. Or were the carbs sent back to you and you had to assemble them on the plenum?

Squirrelman was supposed to wait for the springs I was sending, but instead cobbled up something and sent the carbs back to Matt. I believe Matt replaced the springs before he put them back on.

[DKC'sVFR]

Hmmmm.

What happened to the carb adjustment springs that Jamie sent you at the last moment? What did you do with the springs? Where did they go? I don't understand how your carbs were rebuilt, set up and sent back to you without the springs being installed? How is it that Jamie sent you the springs after the fact of the carburetors being sent back? I assume that the carbs were sent back to you assembled on the plenum. Or were the carbs sent back to you and you had to assemble them on the plenum?

Regarding the issue of removing the ECS (Evaporative Control System). I am including this quote from another thread on removing the ECS. Please note that the only difference between CA and 49 State carburetors appears to be in the addition of the ECS ports on the 59's. Keitin 58's have the same float bowl vents as the 59's, but if you look at where the ECS ports are on a Keitin 58 you will only see the dimple in the boss where a 59 would have its 90degree bent brass fitting for the ECS line to connect to. It is very doubtful that your Keitin VD31 is that much different from the Keitin VD59. I think I have a set of 31's but I don't have them available at this moment.

"On page 167 of the Clymer manual there is a diagram of the Evaporation Control System (ECS). The ECS is merely a system for recirculating the vapor collected from the tank. The drawing (#62) is a bit confusing because of some modifications in the drawing related to its simplification of the real thing. At the bottom of page 167 is another drawing (#63). This is a better representation of the PCV valve. In #62 they write out the name of the valve "Purge Control Valve". This valve has 3 lines running into it. The drawing below it shows the "hocky puck" looking thing as having 4 lines running into it. The ‘PCV’ is the purge control valve, is the “hocky puck”. They are all the same things. The #62 representation shows the line out of the PCV as one single line that subsequently splits into two lines going into the cylinder head inlets downstream of the carburetors. Actually it should show the outlet splitting into 4 lines, one for each carburetor. The drawings leave something to be desired. The representation of the carburetors is as diaphragm housing with a spring extending into the inlet of the carburetors. The drawing was obviously done by someone who knows next to nothing about the carburetors or how they look in cross section.

Here is the low down. The charcoal can is merely a receptacle for storing vapor overnight or during the time the cycle is parked. The PCV valve is operated by a vacuum diaphragm that utilized the low pressure of the #3 inlet port by tapping into the #3 intake port at the same threaded hole used for installing a carburetor balancing line. When you start the cycle the vacuum in the #3 intake port down stream of the carburetor, opens the PCV valve by creating suction on the diaphragm in the PCV valve. The low pressure in the general manifold of both the 1-3 bank and the 2-4 bank would suck the vapor in the charcoal canister into the downstream side of the manifold. The #62 drawing calls the vacuum line going to the #3 intake port the "p.c. port". It appears that the outlet side of the PCV valve goes to the side opposite the p.c. port. That is another part of the confusion of drawing #62. ( Note: if you look back at drawing #61 and you will see them pointing to the diaphragm-spring things and calling them carburetors.)

I have looked at my Keitin 59’s and they have the suction ends of the outlets coming from the PCV “hockey puck” going to brass tubes that fit right above the throttle rod drill holes. Each of the 4 carburetors is fitted with a small 90 degree bent brass fitting that ports to the low pressure side of it's respective carburetor's closed butterfly valve. When the motorcycle is started and throttle plates (butterfly valves) are closed, the low pressure builds up to just behind the closed plates. With the plates closed the manifold pressure is at a minimum (lowest pressure) at each inlet port. This is when the #3 tap for the vacuum line that operates the PCV diaphragm is at its maximum suction power. The PCV diaphragm is wide open at idle and the evaporated gas trapped in the charcoal canister is sucked into the cylinder head inlets behind the closed butterfly valves along with the idle mixture. In the early morning when the walls of the inlets are cold the vapor sucked in actually helps to start the cold engine.

What power does the Evaporative Control System (ECS) rob from the motor? Essentially nothing. The only work being done is the opening and closing of the PCV diaphragm. The small ports that allow trapped evaporated gasoline to be recirculated into the cylinders to be burned is not an added burden on the fuel system. If you think about how the Evaporative Control System (ECS) works you will realize that as you open your throttles and the pressure differential between the outside air and the air in your intake manifold becomes nearly equal, that essentially no air or evaporated gas will enter via the taps down stream of the throttle butterflies.

The fact that your Vf 500 had 2 "hockey pucks" is an indication that someone who did not want to take the tank off and mess with the split outlet lines messed with the ECS. They got a second PCV (hockey puck) so they only had to pull the line that went to either of the cylinder banks in order to close off the ECS ports. Why? Because when the PCV is not hooked to a inlet port (vacuum source) the valve is closed and no vapor/air will enter via the ECS ports.

Since you don't have a charcoal canister you need only plug each of the little 90 degree turned brass fittings that are above the throttle shafts on each carburetor to disable what was essentially an innocuous piece of emission control.

The remaining bit of emission control is, as I said elsewhere, built into your carburetors. It is a vent that allows vapors that arise from inside the float bowls of all Keitin VD 58-59 carburetors to vent to the air plenum."

[DKC'sVFR]

You can't be far from getting it right, so now is not the time to give up on the problem.

I want to know what you did about those springs? I want to know how you set up the carbs for balance if you did not change out to the correct springs. Finally, I want you to look for the little 90 degree brass fittings that act as the hose connections on your Keitin VD 32A carbs. My Clymer manual has a diagram of the ECS for the 1986 model vf500f on pages 328-9 (Drawings 41,42 and 43). Your Keitin VD 32A's probably have the same sort of 90 degree brass fittings that were described re the Keitiin vd59 A's in the previous reply. You need to block each of those off individually. They port into the venturi of each carburetor downstream of the throttle plates. If you have one that is leaking air it might contribute to some of the surging etc. Block them all off and try again. That does not mean that you have to keep them blocked off. You can reinstall the ECS if you want. But for purposes of eliminating all possible sources of surge or carb unbalance block them all off for the time being.

At the same time, while running the motor with the ECS ports plugged try spraying WD40 or some other light weight oil on the rubber seals that connect the carburetor outlets to the cylinder head inlets and see if there is any up tick in idle speed when you get the fluid down into a possible vacuum leak at the base of that individual carbs body (or the seal at the cylinder head inlet). If there is a change in engine speed when you wet down one or more of the rubber seals you have a vacuum leak at that seal. Fix it and try the bike out again.

As for the balance adjustment springs, they must be to factory spec. I went into a long discussion on the problem you run into if you do not have the correct length springs and screws on the balance adjustment portions of the assembly. It's the assembly of the carburetors on to the plenum that is crutial. If the wrong parts are in the balance adjustment area then you will not be able to balance the carburetors. It has to do with the small distance that you can compress the standard carb adjust springs, and the interference of the screws with the adjustment flats if they are too long. I'll try to go back and find that long reply I sent.

[matt1986vf500f]

Hmmmm.

What happened to the carb adjustment springs that Jamie sent you at the last moment? What did you do with the springs? Where did they go? I don't understand how your carbs were rebuilt, set up and sent back to you without the springs being installed? How is it that Jamie sent you the springs after the fact of the carburetors being sent back? I assume that the carbs were sent back to you assembled on the plenum. Or were the carbs sent back to you and you had to assemble them on the plenum?

the carb adjusment springs are on there squirrel sent the carbs back full assembled im very unsure the problem but i do think its carb related

[matt1986vf500f]

Squirrelman was supposed to wait for the springs I was sending, but instead cobbled up something and sent the carbs back to Matt. I believe Matt replaced the springs before he put them back on.

BINGO

[matt1986vf500f]

by the way i would like to buy some 84-85 good complete carbs with nothing missing and no stripped holes or screws

[slowbird]

by the way i would like to buy some 84-85 good complete carbs with nothing missing and no stripped holes or screws

I keep seeing sets on Ebay but they always end up waaaaay over $100

[tinkerinWstuff]

complete carbs with nothing missing and no stripped holes or screws

that's the struggle isn't it? Either my #2 or 3 carb (don't remember which) has the head stripped off the pilot screw. I've given everything I can short of one chance at an easy-out to remove it. I don't have high hopes for the easy-out so it would likely take machining to repair it.

It had the tamper resistant caps covering the adjuster screws when I got my hands on it so I'm sure it is still at the factory setting. It idles fine and I've been able to blow carb cleaner thru the idle mixture passages so I'm living with it. I only wanted to remove them for cleaning purposes.

[matt1986vf500f]

here y'all go need a place to put a updated picture of my son jacob

[tinkerinWstuff]

congratz!! Now I see why your bike issues are not the highest priority!

I think the wife and I have come to an agreement: If she gets preggers here in the next couple months, then she won't want to ride bike. I can keep the VF500 instead of getting a cruiser. For now.

[JamieDaugherty]

here y'all go need a place to put a updated picture of my son jacob

My God your head is ugly.

[JamieDaugherty]

Hey DKC: don't your fingers ever get tired? E-gads man!

[DKC'sVFR]

But I'm a damn typin' fool when I gits a taste a 'splainin thing's.. I's tired now. Spent the whole day in the heat in Whittier taking care a' load o' big pumps. Gots to go back dare t' marro'. They wants me t' field balance the 3 worst o' those suckers. Ther 's a big brush fire next to da 60 freeway and I was stuck in traffic fer 2 hours trying ta git home. I's still buzzing from creeping 2 to 3 mph for 10 miles on the freeway in 88 degrees a heat. I do belibe I's gittin' sick.

[matt1986vf500f]

My God your head is ugly.

wow you know how to make a guy feel good about him self

[tinkerinWstuff]

wow you know how to make a guy feel good about him self

Good thing then that life is no longer about "you" eh?

We wouldn't want ya cryin, poutin, and needing a hug just to get your self esteem back up.

[Rollin_Again]

My God your head is ugly.

Jamie,

It's not just the head it's the whole package

Let's pray that those kids have their mother's looks

Rollin

[JamieDaugherty]

wow you know how to make a guy feel good about him self

No problem man, I do what I can.

[matt1986vf500f]

No problem man, I do what I can.

i always knew you cared

[matt1986vf500f]

ok class heres what i've learned about the problems that keeps affecting my bike one of my cylinders keeps getting loaded up on fuel and causeing the plugs to miss fire resulting in a dead cylinder but heres the kicker when you pin the throttle to clear it out she takes a few sec's and clears out and runs like a two dollar whore! what causes this float height and pliot, jet, pliot ccurcit, etc... so what have we learn today class

[JamieDaugherty]

OH OH OH!!! ME ME ME!!!

I'd say we've learned to focus our efforts on where the problem is coming from and not to bother checking something else just because it's easy to do. If the clues are telling you that it's carburation related, then most likely checking the electrical system is a waste of time.

Am I right?

[squirrelman]

Ok, Matt, glad you're making progress !

Float heights were VERY carefully SET to specs for '86 bike and CHECKED:

I filled the carbs with fuel to test for leaks, then used bubble levels to set carbs evenly side to side, forward and back then used an external clear line from the float bowl to actually observe the fuel levels in all carbs.

fuel level was the same in all carbs + or - 1/2mm

as you know, there's a small, spring-loaded plunger on the end of the needle where it contacts the float, and that plunger is a common failure item, usually sticking in the shortest position, fully collapsed, and that will raise fuel level in carb .

i KNOW the pilot circuits were clear when i tested the carbs.....the pilot jets especially were very clean and open, so i don't know, Matt, maybe that one time i filled the carbs for testing and then emptyed them maybe some gas dried up and blocked a passage??

Since you narrowed the problem to the front left cylinder, concentrate your trouble shooting there.

Electrical tests are a simple precaution in order to positively RULE OUT faults in that system, and once testing is done then carb problems are the next logical suspect.

[JamieDaugherty]

as you know, there's a small, spring-loaded plunger on the end of the needle where it contacts the float, and that plunger is a common failure item, usually sticking in the shortest position, fully collapsed, and that will raise fuel level in carb .

My understanding is that plunger always compresses fully when the floats are full. If the needle/seat was cleaned well enough it should be working just fine, I would think.

i KNOW the pilot circuits were clear when i tested the carbs.....the pilot jets especially were very clean and open, so i

I think that could be part of the problem. It seems to me that Matt needs to pull those carbs down and perform a thorough inspection on them. More than likely some parts will need to be replaced. Just my guess though!

[tinkerinWstuff]

could the choke circuit/plunger be stuck open on that cylinder/carb?

The way the choke system is designed on these carbs, it wouldn't affect WOT operation but would run rich at 1/4 and under throttle positions.

I agree with squirrel, after years of doing plant maintenance, it pays to check and illiminate the easy stuff. And then, when I think I know what the problem is, I prove why it can't be anything else before spending money.

[matt1986vf500f]

you know i am sorry but electrical system is working fine when you have a igntion problem what happens most of the time theres no power on the top end i've delt with alot of bike that have had cobbled up electrical systems this bike has carbs issues,


my next question is what to do, squirrel man if i send the carbs back to you are you going to replace the hosed pilot jets? re-sync the carbs with the right springs? look man i am not trying to bash you or trying ruin your sale's or whatever i have my own business and i understand how important customer service is as i deal with them every day and i screw up to but i will fix the problem right then...i want this to be fixed i want all the new guys out there with Vf bikes to know how to fix there bikes if the problem should occour and even have you rebuild there carbs for them.... i think we could come to some kinda deal here but please i've checked this bike up and down and the electrical system is working at 100%.


business is business

[JamieDaugherty]

could the choke circuit/plunger be stuck open on that cylinder/carb?

I doubt it. If one was sticking open that much it would be affecting the idle quality when cold or warm.

I agree with squirrel, after years of doing plant maintenance, it pays to check and illiminate the easy stuff. And then, when I think I know what the problem is, I prove why it can't be anything else before spending money.

So, if there was a puddle of water laying on the floor you would go check the circuit breaker? Or would you instead start looking for a leak in a pipe? The circuit breaker is easier to check.

[tinkerinWstuff]

So, if there was a puddle of water laying on the floor you would go check the circuit breaker? Or would you instead start looking for a leak in a pipe? The circuit breaker is easier to check.

Get serious

Sure I would if there was an electricaly operated roof vent above the pipe.

[tinkerinWstuff]

It sounds like there have been other conversations that haven't been posted so I don't know what has or hasn't been done.

But in this example, I most certainly would swap a plug wire, plug, everything I could that is relatively easy, in an effort to see if the problem remains at the one cylinder.

[squirrelman]

I apologized if there was a problem and immediately offered to go through Matt's carbs again without delay,
but i asked for a few simple electrical tests first while the carbs were still on the bike in order to RULE OUT a bad sparkplug wire, fouled plug, failing coil, or any electrical fault that could maybecontribute to poor running.........just seemed routine.


Matt's carbs were so fouled up when i got them with rust flakes and dust and water from a half-rotted tank that fuel flow inside carbs was partially blocked, incapable of proper running in that condition.
But there could have been another unsolved problem with Matt's bike????? NO way, you say??

THIS will get sorted, and Matt's wings will FLY again!

[JamieDaugherty]

Get serious

Sure I would if there was an electricaly operated roof vent above the pipe.

I kind of thought you were going to say something like that.

It sounds like there have been other conversations that haven't been posted so I don't know what has or hasn't been done.

But in this example, I most certainly would swap a plug wire, plug, everything I could that is relatively easy, in an effort to see if the problem remains at the one cylinder.

The point being that all of the evidence was indicating a problem with the carbs. The problem was surging when hot and one cylinder fouling. I've never known either of those to be caused by something electrical.

Ruling out something is a great way to troubleshoot, however if you have no reason to believe that it's the problem then it sure sounds like wasted effort to me. Why not rule out the carbs first?

I honestly do not know what the problem is. I've had similar issues with a VF500 of mine and it was carbs, specifically the sync. The only difference is that mine wasn't loading up one cylinder. My guess is that Matt has more than one thing going on, but I still think the carbs are the first place to look.

[tinkerinWstuff]

I think this thread is starting to sound amazingly like the F2 rear wheel thread where Jamie wished everyone would butt-out and let him troubleshoot his own product....

Seems odd that Squirrel isn't being given the same courtesy....

Ruling out something is a great way to troubleshoot, however if you have no reason to believe that it's the problem then it sure sounds like wasted effort to me. Why not rule out the carbs first?

Because the carbs are the most complicated and difficult system to troubleshoot. That's the point, for example, it's way easier to swap a plug wire than yank a carb set. It takes 1 minute but sending the carbs back probably costs a person a week.