Hot stator wires

[blackbuell]

I have posted this problem on VFRD, so some of you might have heard this story before; sorry for the redundancy.

I own two '98 VFR800FI's; bought both within the last 12 months. One is a salvage job that I bought as a project bike with 10K miles, the other was in great shape with 20K miles when I bought it. Over the past year I have put about 3K miles on each bike. Both developed the same problem--the connector between the stator and the R/R melted. In the salvaged bike I replaced both the R/R and the stator with after-market (supposedly better) parts. In the good bike I only replaced the R/R. In both bikes all tests of the charging system suggest that everything is fine, but the wires between the stator and the R/R get very hot, so hot that I assume that the connectors will melt again very quickly. In the salvaged bike I tried eliminating the connector, but the wires still got so hot that I didn't feel confident riding it any distance--I soldered the connector back in.

I assume that for some reason there is too much current flowing through the thin little stator wires, but a test of the current flow at various RPM's shows the values to be within specs.

Some responders to my VFRD post suggest that there is a problem with a ground on the other side of the R/R. However, I have tried to add additional grounds to the frame with no apparent effect.

Any suggestions to help me remedy this problem?

Thanks,

Jon

[Echo3Niner]

Glad you came over, I'll let someone more edumicated than I answer your question...

[steven113]

First, get the VFRnes from Wire My Bike that takes care of your rr and grounding issues. If your connectors to the stator from the rr are browned it is more than likely from the issues the vfrness have already solved but you will still have to replace the connecters(wire my bike sells these also). Be sure to pack all connections with dialectric gel to keep down heat and prohibit corrosion and you should be fine!

[blackbuell]

steven,

Both bikes already have the VFRness installed and new connectors are in place with the connections coated with dielectric grease.

Jon

[Echo3Niner]

Speaking of edumication, can someone tell me for sure if by the 2007's the upgraded R/R's were in place? I thought so, but now I'm not so sure.

Also, since I also read there are several other issues (e.g. wiring, etc.) does the 'upgrades' Honda did solve the issue?

[pserve]

Speaking of edumication, can someone tell me for sure if by the 2007's the upgraded R/R's were in place?

According to the fiche, 2004-2008 have the same one, OEM# 31600-MCW-D61 which is a SHINDINGEN# SH689FA. Is there supposed to be a new one?

[Echo3Niner]

I had read on various posts, that they did a recall, and had an 'upgraded' R/R. I had also read that at somepoint, I thought as of 2006 model year, the 'upgraded' R/R was stock, but then I've read conflicting info...

[pserve]

There seems to have been a change between 2002/2003 and 2004-on, but I haven't heard of anything further. The part # (SH689FA) should be stamped right on the top of it and is easy to check. Some have independently gotten FET-based R/R's (#FHXXX) from other bikes and fitted them. Maybe that's what you heard.

[Echo3Niner]

Sorry to sidetrack your thread Jon.

I've created a new one for my questions: http://vfrworld.com/forums/sixth-gen...w-oem-r-r.html

Everyone please resume your normal programming on this thread...

[pserve]

Jon, I know you're looking for answers, and not questions, but...

I assume that for some reason there is too much current flowing through the thin little stator wires, but a test of the current flow at various RPM's shows the values to be within specs.

Would you mind clarifying what you did for this current test, just to satisfy the curious cat in me?

I'm also interested in which aftermarket parts you used on the second bike? I have heard it recommended elsewhere to always replace the stator and R/R together. So, I would have figured that the problem would be solved on that machine. I'm rather puzzled as to why that didn't take care of it, and the only things left to look at are the components involved.

[blackbuell]

pserve,

I used a multimeter to test the current flow through each stator wire at various RPM's, and all values were the same for each wire at any given RPM, and they were within specs---I forgot exactly where I got the spec numbers (VFRD, I think), but I recall it was about 65 VAC at 5 K RPM, don't remember the other values.

In the 2nd (the good) bike I only replaced the R/R, but I did that twice. The first time was with one from Rick's. Actually, the bike had been running fine, but stupid me decided to be proactive and replace the stock R/R with what I thought was an improved part--I had hoped to take a long trip on the bike, and I didn't want to be stranded by an R/R failure (I learned from VFRD how common the failures were). A few months after I put in Rick's R/R, the connector fried. I then decided to try the new and improved Honda R/R for
5th gen VFR's. With the 2nd new R/R installed, the bike runs fine, all checks out fine according to the ElectroSport Industries fault finding flow chart for motorcycle charging systems, but the damn wires between the stator and the R/R get too hot to touch.

It was in the salvaged bike that I replaced both the R/R and the stator. However, I did not replace them simultaneously. I replaced the R/R first (with one from Rick's); the stator replacement (also from Rick's) came later.

As I am tired of dealing with this issue, I will probably take the salvaged bike into a dealership to see if they can figure out what is wrong. Then maybe I can make the same changes myself on the other bike.

Jon

[pserve]

I see. Thanks for the clarification.

I was wondering how you tested the current flow, since excessive current could easily cause heat to build up within the wires. What you tested, however, was voltage, and that's altogether different. A good test, but not what I thought.

I'm under the impression that Rick's stuff is good, but if you didn't replace them at the same time, that would leave a window for the one to damage the other. For instance, I've heard that a bad stator can damage a good R/R, and I'm wondering how true that is.

I'm sure you're not the only one who is tired of such electrical problems, and I hope you'll let us know what it was if your dealer can sort it out.

[blackbuell]

Pserve,

Sorry for the misstatement; I didn't directly measure current flow, but I did measure the resistance of the stator wires and the voltage generated at various RMP's by the stator, and all checked out. Consequently, following Ohm's law I assumed that the current flow rate was OK.

I have also heard good things about Rick's products and I am not blaming them. However, in both bikes the problem showed up after I installed one of their R/R's. Who knows, maybe I screwed up the installation.

I'll post what the dealership finds.

Jon

[pserve]

No worries. The deal here is that we are working with 3-phase AC voltage and current on that side of the R/R, and that makes the measurement of things more complicated than anything straight DC. I wish I had the knowledge and equipment to do it properly and get to the bottom of this, but I don't. For all our sakes, I do hope your shop has enough expertise to do more than keep replacing things until it works right, especially since that seems to be a temporary condition.

[jobvfr]

I gotta throw in my 2cents:
3 different r/rs in two different vfrs ('92 and '01)
vfrness and better grounds as well as extra heat sink behind the r/r ('01)

Finally installed a digital v meter and now the bike is fine!
22k since and all is well
I think it won't act up if it knows I'm watching!!!!

[steven113]

This whole situation pisses me off! This RR situation should be a factory recall!!! They did it for the 6th gens, the 5th gens have the same charging system as them so why not???

[blackbuell]

I brought the salvage bike to a dealership that specializes in vintage Hondas; their service department has a good reputation. I should find out in a day or two what they think is causing the stator wires to get so hot. I will post the verdict, as a few of you might be impacted by the result.

I have been riding the other bike after installing the modified factory R/R; it has larger cooling fin surface area and an aluminum heat-sink backing. I replaced the connector with Tightwad's repair kit. I also added an additional ground to the frame. The VFRness remains in place. The stator wires get pretty damn warm, but not too hot to touch like they do in the salvaged bike. I will continue to ride it for now, but will make changes based on what the dealership finds with the salvaged bike.

[pserve]

Looking forward to hearing what they find...

[blackbuell]

This really sucks....the dealership has had the bike for 2 weeks now. A few folks warned me that dealerships in general simply forge ahead and plug in new parts without doing proper evaluation; that's what seems to be happening. I'm disappointed, as I thought this dealership was different. What bothers me most is that they have ignored things I told them about the history of the problem. For example, I had taken the upgraded Honda R/R from my good bike and put it on the bad bike to see if that would solve the heat problem--it did not. I told them that I had done this, but the first thing they did to the bike was to put on a new R/R. and, guess what---it didn't solve the problem!

I'm thinking of just picking up the bike today (even though it hasn't been fixed) and cutting my losses.

Are electrical problems always so difficult to solve? Anybody know a good mechanic in the Cincinnati area?

Jon

[Echo3Niner]

Unfortunately electrical/electronic problems are VERY hard to solve (I'm having one with my Pathfinder right now). Additionally, the dealer's have to start at the obvious issue and work from there, even if the user says they did it already, cause they can't be sure you're telling the truth, or know what you're doing (not that you aren't or don't, just that many users lie and don't).

I know it sucks, but they have to work thru the issue methodically.

[jobvfr]

I can see your problem from both sides. I work in a honda service dept. (cars) and I see all kinds of wacky stuff. You would be surprised how many problems are created by the customers and aftermarket parts. I'm not saying products like the VFRness are no good, but it doesn't surprise me that the dealer would be leery of non-honda repairs.
Is your problem the heating wires, or does the bike not charge?
I do all my own bike work and I moonlight at a cycle shop at night. I have seen some wacky charging issues with these bikes, but never one that I couldn't fix. Are you sure your battery is ok? I was told by an field engineer that most of these reg problems result from excessive resitance in the charging system circuit or poor ballasting by the battery. My '01 charges well, but the reg and wires do get hot. The reg is usually too hot to touch after I get home from a ride. I do keep the bike on a charger when it's parked, but not all the time.
I'm sure there are lots of ideas out there about the r/r issues, but I would stick with the basics. All connections clean and tight, all ground and power connections tight, good battery (should be able to start the bike after leaving the lights on for 1/2 hr) etc,etc...
Good luck

[blackbuell]

Yes, I realize I shouldn't be so critical of the dealership mechanics....I just lost my cool...have been dealing with this problem for several months now, and my frustration got the better of me.

I do understand that I might have created the issue myself by plugging in all those after-market parts, and that the mechanic at the dealership probably has to go back to ground zero in order to figure out why the stator wires get hot enough to burn you (this can't be normal).

After I thought about it a while, I talked to the service manager and discussed his plan to resolve the problem. His next step is to replace the after-market stator with a factory part. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

On a happier note, my other 5th gen seems fine now that I did replace the after-market R/R with the up-graded factory version. I do have the vfrness in place plus an additional ground from the battery to the frame. Also checked/cleaned all connectors that were easy to access.

Jon

[NorcalBoy]

This whole situation pisses me off! This RR situation should be a factory recall!!! They did it for the 6th gens, the 5th gens have the same charging system as them so why not???

Because the gear driven 5g is far superior to the VTEC 6g in all respects, it was deemed unnecessary.

[vfr sam]

Ihad the same problem with my 99. A local bike shop told me to sauder the wire's together(at the connections) so I did it, that was over a year ago.One tip I can provide is to keep track of your wires.

[blackbuell]

The problem bike is back from the shop. They replaced the after-market parts with a Honda up-graded R/R and a Honda stator. The VFRness remains in place. I checked out the wires this morning--they do get warm, but, even after running it a 5K RPM's for a while, the wires do not get hot any more. The charging voltages at the battery are also normal. I am curious why these highly recommended after-market parts, which apparently work fine on other 5th gen VFR's, did not work right on my bikes. This was an expensive lesson in electrical systems.

Jon

[Echo3Niner]

Great news.

[jobvfr]

I'm glad all is well with your 5th gen!!
Now time to ride!