Ding Dong, the red light cameras are dead!!

[Joey_Dude]

Near my work there are intersections that have red light cameras and while I was idling at a red light I noticed that the cameras aren't there anymore. I figured they're probably doing maintenance and it'll be back up again. Well, several weeks ago by and they're not there anymore.

So I did a google on the red light cameras and found this source: http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/27/2720.asp

Specifically there is this text:
Of these, Duluth, Lilburn, Norcross, Snellville and Suwanee put the brakes on their red light camera programs after the data made it clear that the programs would no longer make money.

Plus there is this:
"Since most of these cities have stated that safety was the primary reason they installed red light cameras, they should be thrilled that citations have been significantly reduced; however, many are pulling the cameras out because they are no longer making a profit."

All I got to say is that I'm happy that they're starting to go away. In that source there's a law requiring an extra second for the yellow light and I even wrote to the city about the red light intersection saying that the yellow light is too short. You got to have the reaction time of a fly to brake in time.

Karma is a bitch ain't it. Now excuse me while I run a red light again.

[derstuka]

Just the opposite around here Joseph....Red light cameras are going up all around....however, they did it shut down for a couple of years because all of the tickets had to be thrown out as they were off timed (to maximize profit) and had to go thru lots of legal stuff before they were allowed again. Now with different timing.

[powerslave]

Not only do we have red light cameras, but we also have douchebags with cameras mounted on the front bumper.
They tell the public that these mobile camera units are for our own safety, as they are only to be deployed to school zones, playgrounds, and construction zones.
Well, they set up near playgrounds when it is -30c and there have not been any kids there all winter, as there are no footprints in the snow.
They snap pics at school zones on Saturday and Sunday.
They rake in the cash at construciton zones after the workers have left, and the warning signs clearly say: MAX 60kph WHEN WORKERS PRESENT
Nothing but a shameless tax grab!!!
(IMHO....of course)

[Cyborg]

I for one, am for red light cameras because I am so damned sick and tired of dodging idiot cagers who, for the Holy Love of God, just can't wait a minute or two to get where they're going. I almost got nailed just last week by one asshole who apparently had to have something from a chik-Fi-La. Wasn't one of us clipped by a light runner just a few months ago? It may not have happened if there'd been a camera at that intersection. Some places are gonna have them for honest safety reasons, others for the money, what does it matter? Anyone who doesn't wanna pay into the "shameless tax grab" should try this wild, out-of-the-box, revolutionary idea: DON'T RUN THE DAMNED RED LIGHT!

[VifferDude]

Do you guys have a demerit points system in the US and Canada?

[mello dude]

In Ohio we have cameras in various citys. The maker of the camera "leases" them to citys for 50% of the fines that come in. Bastards! Hell I'll buy the cameras if I could get half the money from them too.

MD

[VFRShorty]

Originally Posted by Cyborg

Anyone who doesn't wanna pay into the "shameless tax grab" should try this wild, out-of-the-box, revolutionary idea: DON'T RUN THE DAMNED RED LIGHT!

There has been MANY cases all over the country where lights are timed illegally, people are ticketed when they did not even run the light (ie their bumper is an inch or two over the crosswalk line), etc. I personally know someone who got a ticket for making a right hand turn on a red which is legal.

I am glad you support that

[soundmaster31]

Originally Posted by VifferDude

Do you guys have a demerit points system in the US and Canada?

In the U.S. yes, but it is logged by the state (not the fed -unless you're a commercial driver) and the severity of the infraction varies from county to county in each state.

[Joey_Dude]

Originally Posted by VFRShorty

There has been MANY cases all over the country where lights are timed illegally, people are ticketed when they did not even run the light (ie their bumper is an inch or two over the crosswalk line), etc.

I got a red light ticket and on it said the light had been red for .24 seconds, yes POINT TWO FOUR seconds. From that I had to make a habit of slamming the brakes when the light turned yellow. At the intersections where I see them there's been an increase in rear-end collisions.

IMO it's better to just extend the yellow light time to some reasonable time.

Despite that, you got to wonder when the cities are stopping the red light programs because they realize they can't make money off them. Think about that one. If they truly cared about safety they'd keep them on even if it's not profitable and they'd tap into other funds to keep the cameras running.

If you look at speeding tickets, parking tickets, etc... they claim it's all about our safety but how come they won't do them if it doesn't make money?

[RWB25]

Originally Posted by Joey_Dude

Specifically there is this text:
Of these, Duluth, Lilburn, Norcross, Snellville and Suwanee put the brakes on their red light camera programs after the data made it clear that the programs would no longer make money.

Plus there is this:
"Since most of these cities have stated that safety was the primary reason they installed red light cameras, they should be thrilled that citations have been significantly reduced; however, many are pulling the cameras out because they are no longer making a profit."

"No longer make money"

"No long making a profit"

There's your proof right there. It has NOTHING to do with safety. It's all about making the state/county/city money. Bottom line. $$$$. They play the "safety" card to the public so they get "support" for them.

I personally support the intersection cameras to catch the idiots running the red light to get to where ever they have to be, in such a hurry. Especially the idiot cagers cutting us bikers off or running us bikers over.


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[steven113]

If the state was truly concerned about safty and not revenue they would make it mandatory to spend a day or two in the pokey for such an offence instead of a fine. Its sad that we accept such tyrany and control over us in my opinion.

[Action]

We’ve been going round and round about red light camera’s here in ABQ for a few years. Here they issue speeding tickets and/or red light tickets. I have a couple of problems with them:

1. In every case I’ve heard about, they are about making money, NOT safety. As an example, here in ABQ the fine for the camera, first time, was over twice as much as getting a ticket from an officer. Now that the fines have been lowered the cameras are going to cost the taxpayer money.

2. I don’t like remote control law enforcement. If the behavior is egregious enough for a fine it needs to be corrected on the spot, not weeks later by mail. Using this logic you could fit all vehicles with a GPS and fine them by mail any time they exceed the speed limit.

3. The data locally does not support the fact that they increase safety. Some intersections actually had an increase in accidents, mainly rear end collisions.

4. Here in ABQ you don’t get due process if you choose to contest the citation. The actual citation is for a nuisance violation (no points) because the whole system would be too costly to defend in a real court. If you want to contest your citation you have to go before a three person panel and argue your case. I’ve won both I’ve been issued; one the light was taking pictures on yellow and the other the cameras had the wrong lanes assigned. The person next to me was speeding and it clicked me for the ticket. It took a white board and 20 minutes to explain it to the three geniuses who were on the panel. Who knows how innocent many people paid for that or if it’s even been fixed.

Action

[Rev]

Originally Posted by Action

Using this logic you could fit all vehicles with a GPS and fine by mail them any time they exceed the speed limit.

This is coming.

[H.C.D.]

As long as they are for safety, IE, they don't take them down when they stop making money, and as long as they use them fairly, I am for them. We have lots of stupid fu#$ing idiots here in Little Rock who think that running thru an intersection a few seconds after the light turns red is an OK thing to do. If you are first in line to go thru an intersection after the light turns green around here, you better look both ways if you value your life!

They can also be used as evidence in the event of an accident. Somebody hits me because they ran a light, and I or my suvivors will see them in civil court. Stupid Hurt$.

Regards,
H.C.D.

[Kevin_70]

Originally Posted by Cyborg

Anyone who doesn't wanna pay into the "shameless tax grab" should try this wild, out-of-the-box, revolutionary idea: DON'T RUN THE DAMNED RED LIGHT!

But then people can't whine as victims about how it's all rigged. I coulnd't agree more with you Cyborg.

[Nungboy]

My 2 cents
Most important is:
for the roads to be safe for everyone...
no one should run red lights..
no one should speed excessively in neighborhoods and congested areas...
BUT red light cameras and speed cameras are all about making money...
>>>there seems to be a disconnect between the legitimate safety issues and enforcement meant to produce revenue

This is unfair.

There is an article today on MSN (From Car & Driver) mentioning that in states all through the nation police deptartments are stepping up their ticketing efforts (of all kinds) in order to increase revenue. They mention how a large amount of these are speed infractions for going just 5mph over the limit. They even quote percentages of tickets given. The public is the cash cow. YOU are the bail out.

[Action]

Originally Posted by Cyborg

Anyone who doesn't wanna pay into the "shameless tax grab" should try this wild, out-of-the-box, revolutionary idea: DON'T RUN THE DAMNED RED LIGHT!

That’s fine until you start getting citations when you don't run a red light or get a speeding ticket for the car next to you (most red light cam's have a speed measuring component). It’s all good until you are unfairly tagged and discover your "rights" don't apply because of the way they issue the ticket. Don't worry about that "safe" driver who absolutely locks up his brakes at the hint of a yellow light because he's worried about a red light cam. Keep telling yourself as long as you follow the rules you won't have any problems.

A little light reading if you're courious - Red Light Camera Study @ sciencedaily.com

Action

[namaishi]

They put one up near my place (Mira Mesa Blvd. and Black Mountain Rd. for you San Diegans) and it is annoying as hell. It seems to just go off sporadically when I'm sitting there at the intersection. I just hope they don't start putting them up at intercections that don't recognize a motorcycle is there. There was one by my old place and near a class I was taking that I had to run every time because it would not recognize you were there.

[RWB25]

Personally, I think the cure for these idiot cagers it to put them on a bike for a day. Full ATAGATT, bike training...the whole 9 yards. Send them out on the road and I think they will quickly realize how dangerous our roads are and how some people's actions are reckless and irresponsible. I think they will realize too how vulnerable bike riders are while out on our roads. Then maybe, just maybe they'll realize how their carelessness can dramatically effect bike riders. I know. Wishful thinking.

The money they make off any fines, would then fund this bike training and bike rental for the offender to use during his/her "bike awareness training".

Today's cars are too well built with crash crumple zones, air bags, ABS etc. etc. The common cager, who only drives cages, are too insulated from the rest of the world while in their vehicles. The feel invincible.

And I won't even get on my soapbox about people trying to do 11 different things while driving instead of just DRIVING THE DAMN CAR.


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[soundmaster31]

Originally Posted by RWB25

Today's cars are too well built with crash crumple zones, air bags, ABS etc. etc. The common cager, who only drives cages, are too insulated from the rest of the world while in their vehicles. The feel invincible.

And I won't even get on my soapbox about people trying to do 11 different things while driving instead of just DRIVING THE DAMN CAR.


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It'd be nice if all the cagers had manual transmissions. I think it'd help weed out SOME of the 11 different things they absolutely HAVE to do while driving...

[RWB25]

Good point. That would keep both hands busy. Well, busier than the cagers with auto trannies.


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[Joey_Dude]

Some excellent points all. Action, I had to laugh at "if you think if you just follow rules you'll be all right".

Here's an article from a newspaper confirming that red light cameras INCREASE accidents: http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/10/1050.asp

[Cyborg]

Originally Posted by VFRShorty

There has been MANY cases all over the country where lights are timed illegally, people are ticketed when they did not even run the light (ie their bumper is an inch or two over the crosswalk line), etc. I personally know someone who got a ticket for making a right hand turn on a red which is legal.

I am glad you support that

You got a yellow, you got time to stop. If the light's illegally timed, a few minutes of video can go a long way in court to proving that. As I recall, crosswalks normally have stop lines to either side at which surprise, surprise, vehicles are supposed to stop. Right turns on red is legal in some areas, not in others and in any case have conditions like "when clear" and "full stop" attached. I repeat, too damned many idiots run the reds for stupid reasons like "I'm hungry" to "didn't feel like waiting" to less that that. Red light cams, for watever the reason they are there, cause a major drop in runners and the danger to others runners present.I watched a light go red, 15 seconds later an asshole ran it and t-boned a van, killing 3 of the 7 in it. His excuse? "I didn't see the fuckers." I'm sad that you are ok with that.

Oh, by the way, I will thank you to speak for yourself pal, not for me.

[RWB25]

It's all about generating $$$ for the cities under the falsehood of safety. $Millions!!! I would love to know where the $$$ is spent? Safety?

The ONLY problem I have with those numbers is how do they know the TRUE # of accidents at those intersections before the cameras were installed. Those are only the accidents that are actually reported to the police. I bet a good number of accidents were kept "off the books" to prevent having to use insurance. "My fault, I'll pay to have your car fixed, let's not involve our insurance companies". It happens a lot. With the cameras installed, NO accidents will go unnoticed and the insurance companies would always be involved.


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[Joey_Dude]

Originally Posted by Cyborg

I watched a light go red, 15 seconds later an asshole ran it and t-boned a van, killing 3 of the 7 in it. His excuse? "I didn't see the fuckers."

I got to add a clarification here, I would be ok with red light cameras as long as they are reasonable. If the light has been read for 15 seconds then yeah, that warrants a ticket, buuuuuut..... how about a guy just riding along not even in a hurry and sees yellow light and can't stop in time and gets ticketed for running a light when it was red for fractions of a second?

That is my issue with them. In my original post if you look at the article referenced georga introduced a new law to extend the yellow light by an extra second. You would think the cities are going to figure that's going to provide a much safer intersection and that the red light cameras will catch the real idiots intentionally running red lights well after it's been red. Nope, they canceled the red light cameras because they wouldn't make any money for them.

Taking this on a tangent, with this kind of logic why doesn't the city might as well focus only on the profitable crimes and ignore murders, rapes, etc.. Someone's getting shot at? Who cares, there's a speeder that's easy money.

[Kevin_70]

I think there are two debates going on here. I'm all for a discussion on the scientific validity concerning their safety effectiveness, even better if someone backs up statements with actual data. But if your contention is based upon the fact you got caught running a red light by camera and are now whining about it then it’s your bad, not the system Our society as whole needs a helluva a lot more personal responsibility in my opinion.

[Scubalong]

Originally Posted by Joey_Dude

I got a red light ticket and on it said the light had been red for .24 seconds, yes POINT TWO FOUR seconds. From that I had to make a habit of slamming the brakes when the light turned yellow. At the intersections where I see them there's been an increase in rear-end collisions.

IMO it's better to just extend the yellow light time to some reasonable time.

Despite that, you got to wonder when the cities are stopping the red light programs because they realize they can't make money off them. Think about that one. If they truly cared about safety they'd keep them on even if it's not profitable and they'd tap into other funds to keep the cameras running.

If you look at speeding tickets, parking tickets, etc... they claim it's all about our safety but how come they won't do them if it doesn't make money?

The POPO could not catch up with you that why they set up camera so they can issue you a ticket brader........

[Action]

Originally Posted by Kevin_70

I think there are two debates going on here. I'm all for a discussion on the scientific validity concerning their safety effectiveness, even better if someone backs up statements with actual data.

You can find studies pointing either way. This one seems to be one of the more valid (LINK). Here in ABQ some of the intersections with the Cam's have gone down, some up. The problem is overall, the cameras have made no difference city wide. As you could tell I'm not a fan of the cameras and I like the auto speed detection even less.

Action

[ianjoub]

Originally Posted by Joey_Dude

I got to add a clarification here, I would be ok with red light cameras as long as they are reasonable. If the light has been read for 15 seconds then yeah, that warrants a ticket, buuuuuut..... how about a guy just riding along not even in a hurry and sees yellow light and can't stop in time and gets ticketed for running a light when it was red for fractions of a second?

That is my issue with them. In my original post if you look at the article referenced georga introduced a new law to extend the yellow light by an extra second. You would think the cities are going to figure that's going to provide a much safer intersection and that the red light cameras will catch the real idiots intentionally running red lights well after it's been red. Nope, they canceled the red light cameras because they wouldn't make any money for them.

Taking this on a tangent, with this kind of logic why doesn't the city might as well focus only on the profitable crimes and ignore murders, rapes, etc.. Someone's getting shot at? Who cares, there's a speeder that's easy money.

[Threadjack] Joey dude, check out Bloke's Sportbike Forum - Powered by vBulletin for local Atlanta/GA stuff [/Threadjack]