Insurance Woes, uh Rates

[crustyrider]

I hope the rejoinder is not going to try to convince anyone that the California Vehicle Code is different in Ventura. Then again, maybe somebody moved Ventura three miles South of San Diego. If a bike cop stops you and he talks funny and is riding a HD Knucklehead, I say blame Arnie.

BB you are about the trollingest person around... I never got the ticket..All I posted was what I was told.....

I have recieved a photo ticket in the mail before.. I was speeding 15 over I payed the ticket.

SCUBA I didn't know that they aren't any points on your record...

[mrich12000]

Just got my renewal for the VFR.

WARNING: Rant Mode initiated, failsafes to standby.

Among the other fun and games Geico added $300 for a BS 08 red light, $100 for lost of my Mature Rider discount because of the ticket and best of all, $74 because I live in this pisshole shitstacked abortion of a state for an increase from $544 to $1030! Any constructive suggestions?

Move to Calgary 308.00 full coverage.

[Badbilly]

BB you are about the trollingest person around... I never got the ticket..All I posted was what I was told.....

I have recieved a photo ticket in the mail before.. I was speeding 15 over I payed the ticket.

SCUBA I didn't know that they aren't any points on your record...

So the message then is:

A: Believe everything you hear and post it for the world to see as fact, with no verification.

B:Somehow think the because you get a citation you are guilty as charged.

C: Think that any insurance company is not going to know about traffic citations as long as five years back in some states and use that data to raise rates.

D: Toss out strings of figures that don't even add up and not expect some flack.

E. Yep, guess your're right.

[vfourbear]

Badbilly you have forgotten the first rule of VFRW

Any topic of true importance or involving money on VFRW inevitably turns into a shitstorm.

This is because the demographic for this website is mainly 30 to 50 yr old caucasian males that ride motorcycles.

And I looked that demographic statistic up so dont be giving me any shit about it, just accept the fact that I know what I'm talking about since I fit this demographic and move on.

[Cyborg]

So the message then is:

A: Believe everything you hear and post it for the world to see as fact, with no verification.

B:Somehow think the because you get a citation you are guilty as charged.

C: Think that any insurance company is not going to know about traffic citations as long as five years back in some states and use that data to raise rates.

D: Toss out strings of figures that don't even add up and not expect some flack.

E. Yep, guess your're right.

A: Believe what you like, all I did was post my problem, which also now includes thread highjackers. This thread is about an (IMO unfair) insurance rate jump due to a ticket and what to do about it, not the ticket itself or any of the ways and reasons to get one.

B: While there are BS tickets written (cops are human and some do abuse the badge), I was guilty of my ticket and paid and paid the $164. My problem is paying a 90% jump for insurance costing an additional $1500+ until it drops out my report in 2011, with no promise my rates will drop back as quickly, incrementally or at all.

C: I told Geico about the ticket 9 months before the 08 renewal and was told no problem because it was on my car, not the bike (got both with Geico).

D: I tossed only what I'd been given.

E: Yep, I am.

[tris1948]

My VFR in the UK costs me £350 ($550 ish) fully comprehensive.

I was talking to an Israeli the other day who is in his late 50s and rides a 250 scooter.

He pays $750 for third party and personal injury - NO BIKE cover



Now thats expensive

[Badbilly]

A: Believe what you like, all I did was post my problem, which also now includes thread highjackers. This thread is about an (IMO unfair) insurance rate jump due to a ticket and what to do about it, not the ticket itself or any of the ways and reasons to get one.

B: While there are BS tickets written (cops are human and some do abuse the badge), I was guilty of my ticket and paid and paid the $164. My problem is paying a 90% jump for insurance costing an additional $1500+ until it drops out my report in 2011, with no promise my rates will drop back as quickly, incrementally or at all.

C: I told Geico about the ticket 9 months before the 08 renewal and was told no problem because it was on my car, not the bike (got both with Geico).

D: I tossed only what I'd been given.

E: Yep, I am.

Tried to turn you on to Ball Insurance in Texas. They even advertise in some of the bike mags. Not those one or two agents with the fake tats and headrags usually plopped on a chopper. I guess since it was a solution I am guilty of hijacking. BTW, the response was to Krusty if you will read the whole thing again.

If you want to do guilt trips. Go for it. Do you think now it just might have been in your own interests to go to court on this alleged infraction? Costing you a bundle aint it?

I do so hope by deflection you are not trying to establish that a citation for a moving violation is viewed by the legal system or your insurer as somehow different because the vehicle is different. Come on dude, save that for the mullets. Also it sounds like if your agent told you that story, and you went for it, some of this hijacking might be useful after you pay that 1k tab to ride your bike.

Bottom line is ya still got the problem.

[GoForARide]

Esurance Auto Insurance – Online Auto Insurance Quotes, Comparisons, & Car Insurance Resources

[Badbilly]

Badbilly you have forgotten the first rule of VFRW

Any topic of true importance or involving money on VFRW inevitably turns into a shitstorm.

This is because the demographic for this website is mainly 30 to 50 yr old caucasian males that ride motorcycles.

And I looked that demographic statistic up so dont be giving me any shit about it, just accept the fact that I know what I'm talking about since I fit this demographic and move on.

I guess I need to see the rules all except rule #1. Thanks..

Those demographics are almost a dead match for Harley buyers except of course for maybe Harleydudes in places like Tokyo and East LA.

I am considering moving to Bend, OR. Got any hot tips for me about it other than how many white guys live there? Got that one already..;)

[Pliskin]

There's lots of talk here about tickets or driving records affecting rates. There are others, to name a few:

Age
Where/How the bike is garaged (i.e city or burbs, indoor or out, alarm, locks, etc.)
Multi vehicle discount
As well as your limit.

I'm curious to know what people mean by when they say I have full coverage? OK, so your bike is insured for $5K, $10K whatever if you wrack it up (please don't)! But what is your liability limit? Uninsured Motorist? Underinsured Motorist? Do you have PIP coverage? Verbal Tort threshold? If you own a home, and have a personal umbrella, do you have sufficient limits on your bike that your umbrella will cover you?

Ala Jeff Foxworthy: "If you don't know this stuff, you might wanna get an agent".

[Badbilly]

There's lots of talk here about tickets or driving records affecting rates. There are others, to name a few:

Age
Where/How the bike is garaged (i.e city or burbs, indoor or out, alarm, locks, etc.)
Multi vehicle discount
As well as your limit.

I'm curious to know what people mean by when they say I have full coverage? OK, so your bike is insured for $5K, $10K whatever if you wrack it up (please don't)! But what is your liability limit? Uninsured Motorist? Underinsured Motorist? Do you have PIP coverage? Verbal Tort threshold? If you own a home, and have a personal umbrella, do you have sufficient limits on your bike that your umbrella will cover you?

Ala Jeff Foxworthy: "If you don't know this stuff, you might wanna get an agent".

So is Jeff selling insurance now or being an agent for agents? I bet if he has a routine doing an insurance sales pitch it's funny as hell.

I would also bet if he includes tort thresholds in his routine, his writers had a heck of a time turning case law into boffo biker jokes.

Auto Accident Claims Under The Revised No-Fault Law And Verbal Threshold Standard In New Jersey ~ New Jersey Law in Review

[motorhead1977]

An additional item that affects the rate you pay for insurance is your credit rating. Seems the actuary folks have decided that if you have bad credit you are more likely to have accidents. I think it is absolute BS, but hey, there are reasons I no longer work for the Evil Insurance Empire!

[Badbilly]

An additional item that affects the rate you pay for insurance is your credit rating. Seems the actuary folks have decided that if you have bad credit you are more likely to have accidents. I think it is absolute BS, but hey, there are reasons I no longer work for the Evil Insurance Empire!

They "do" just like anyone else, whatever they can get away with. There was a time when the color of your car was taken into account to up the rates. Other colors too like your skin color. Sure like to see em pull that now. LOL

[Cyborg]

Tried to turn you on to Ball Insurance in Texas. They even advertise in some of the bike mags. Not those one or two agents with the fake tats and headrags usually plopped on a chopper. I guess since it was a solution I am guilty of hijacking. BTW, the response was to Krusty if you will read the whole thing again.

I tried Ball Insurance and while the rates are good, State Farm won out. BTW, I did read the whole thing, know you were responding to Crusty and chose to respond. Deal with it.

If you want to do guilt trips. Go for it. Do you think now it just might have been in your own interests to go to court on this alleged infraction? Costing you a bundle aint it?

What guilt trip? I merely stated the facts, which included my screwup and Geico's attempt to bend me over, which if you had read my posts, not only failed but is going to cost them all my business. To remove any cluelessness, here's the costs for one year:

Geico ('08)
Car (liability) $680
VFR (full) $544
TOTAL= $1224

State Farm ('09)
Car (liability) $276
VFR (full) $482
Renter's(20k) $141
TOTAL= $899

Now, given it costs about $800 advertising and related expenses to replace a customer (per policy), it sure looks Geico cost themselves a bundle, no?

I do so hope by deflection you are not trying to establish that a citation for a moving violation is viewed by the legal system or your insurer as somehow different because the vehicle is different. Come on dude, save that for the mullets. Also it sounds like if your agent told you that story, and you went for it, some of this hijacking might be useful after you pay that 1k tab to ride your bike.

Geico's policy is that if they insure multiple vehicles, any claim on one policy affects the rates of that policy, not the others. It's my option that policy ought to apply to at least a single ticket. It does not and such is life. FTR, your highjacking has been of no use whatsoever other than to demonstrate how useful you are.

Bottom line is ya still got the problem.

Again, read what I already posted or at least have someone explain the numbers to you.

[Badbilly]

I tried Ball Insurance and while the rates are good, State Farm won out. BTW, I did read the whole thing, know you were responding to Krusty and chose to respond. Deal with it.



What guilt trip? I merely stated the facts, which included my screwup and Geico's attempt to bend me over, which if you had read my posts, not only failed but is going to cost them all my business. To remove any cluelessness, here's the costs for one year:

Geico ('08)
Car (liability) $680
VFR (full) $544
TOTAL= $1224

State Farm ('09)
Car (liability) $276
VFR (full) $482
Renter's(20k) $141
TOTAL= $899

Now, given it costs about $800 advertising and related expenses to replace a customer (per policy), it sure looks Geico cost themselves a bundle, no?



Geico's policy is that if they insure multiple vehicles, any claim on one policy affects the rates of that policy, not the others. It's my option that policy ought to apply to at least a single ticket. It does not and such is life. FTR, your highjacking has been of no use whatsoever other than to demonstrate how useful you are.



Again, read what I already posted or at least have someone explain the numbers to you.

So how much did that one ticket really cost you? For less than that kind of money you could have bought probably a couple of hair shirts or fifteen minutes with one of those Harleydood chicas with the black leather whips and matching bustiers.

Skipping right to the bottom line, the numbers tell me you got one too many.

[Cyborg]

So how much did that one ticket really cost you? For less than that kind of money you could have bought probably a couple of hair shirts or fifteen minutes with one of those Harleydood chicas with the black leather whips and matching bustiers.

Skipping right to the bottom line, the numbers tell me you got one too many.

Ok, how about you have someone read my posts to you and explain the big words along with the numbers? Skipping right to the bottom line, you are a trolling idiot and I'm done with you.

PS: It's "ain't", not "aint"

[Badbilly]

Ok, how about you have someone read my posts to you and explain the big words along with the numbers? Skipping right to the bottom line, you are a trolling idiot and I'm done with you.

PS: It's "ain't", not "aint"

LOL, you are rite I done did it rong. BTW, ya might want to check out how to use the abbreviation of Post Scriptum. It is written P.S. However, if you still wish to be the spelling, punctuation and grammar Nazi as well as the guru of all things insurable and citationable, the job is yours. Those hijacks by English teachers can be a bitch though.

So how many movings did you really get? Does Ball sell auto and HO insurance in your state? They don't in mine. Just Progressive bike insurance. Rates are great, if ya don't have string of guilty cop outs.

[soundmaster31]

The big hikes come with age, locale, points, and CREDIT RATING. The difference between rates for someone with 500-600ish credit vs high 700 ratings is more than 30% often.

[Badbilly]

The big hikes come with age, locale, points, and CREDIT RATING. The difference between rates for someone with 500-600ish credit vs high 700 ratings is more than 30% often.

That and if they could, would up the rates for having holes in your sox, missing brushing your teeth and not patting your dog on the head every day. Do not be surprised if they start asking about smoking, religious preferences, and how many times a month you eat fast food. They are into medical records bigtime.

[KC-10 FE]

Just got my renewal for the VFR.

WARNING: Rant Mode initiated, failsafes to standby.

Among the other fun and games Geico added $300 for a BS 08 red light, $100 for lost of my Mature Rider discount because of the ticket and best of all, $74 because I live in this pisshole shitstacked abortion of a state for an increase from $544 to $1030! Any constructive suggestions?

You live in NJ too?

KC-10 FE out...

[Cyborg]

LOL, you are rite I done did it rong. BTW, ya might want to check out how to use the abbreviation of Post Scriptum. It is written P.S. However, if you still wish to be the spelling, punctuation and grammar Nazi as well as the guru of all things insurable and citationable, the job is yours. Those hijacks by English teachers can be a bitch though.

So how many movings did you really get? Does Ball sell auto and HO insurance in your state? They don't in mine. Just Progressive bike insurance. Rates are great, if ya don't have string of guilty cop outs.

I don't know how much simpler I can put it to you but here goes. I've got the one ticket, that's one, numero uno, a single ticket, individual and alone, the only ticket of any kind I've had since 1997. Geico is wanting to raise my rates for the one single running-a-red-light ticket, and nothing else. They have specifically said the parking lot at-fault in 2007 (no ticket) was not a factor because the pay-out was less than $500. Get it now? As to your Nazi crack, fuck you asshole.

Soundmaster, you have a point about credit ratings, having gone Dave RAMSEY a few years back, I have no credit line of any kind so my rating must be pretty low...

KC-10, Alabama is Hell, NJ is just Purgatory...

[crustyrider]

So the message then is:



B:Somehow think the because you get a citation you are guilty as charged.

Not even going to reply to the others, just this one.

Yeah, I was wrong and I knew it. So why wouldn't I pay the citation? If I am wrongly cited, believe that I am the first one to be waiting at the courthouse to have the ticket dismissed...

And Spell it right, its C-R-U-S-T-Y ... or crustyrider, or CR. Just not with a K.

Cyborg, sorry to hear about your insurance hikes, I'm guessing your under 30 YO? Not gonna give you any advice on how to handle it. Did you already use your one "freebie"? ie... the DMV class? not sure what that costs in AL but it usually was about the same as the ticket but nothing is reported/recorded.

[Cyborg]

Not even going to reply to the others, just this one.

Yeah, I was wrong and I knew it. So why wouldn't I pay the citation? If I am wrongly cited, believe that I am the first one to be waiting at the courthouse to have the ticket dismissed...

And Spell it right, its C-R-U-S-T-Y ... or crustyrider, or CR. Just not with a K.

Cyborg, sorry to hear about your insurance hikes, I'm guessing your under 30 YO? Not gonna give you any advice on how to handle it. Did you already use your one "freebie"? ie... the DMV class? not sure what that costs in AL but it usually was about the same as the ticket but nothing is reported/recorded.

Nope, I'm 45. I've decided to switch to SF, Geico can eat their rate increase with a side order of raw shit. As for my freebie, I had a deal with the county attorney where I'd pay the fine, take the DMV course and the ticket would be wiped from my record. Unfortunately for me someone's asshole lawyer, who wouldn't take 20 minutes of "no" from the judge for an answer, pissed her off big time. So, when my turn came I was told no deal and given 2 choices: Guilty and pay the ticket or Not guilty and bail out in a day or two.

[Badbilly]

Not even going to reply to the others, just this one.

Yeah, I was wrong and I knew it. So why wouldn't I pay the citation? If I am wrongly cited, believe that I am the first one to be waiting at the courthouse to have the ticket dismissed...

And Spell it right, its C-R-U-S-T-Y ... or crustyrider, or CR. Just not with a K.

Cyborg, sorry to hear about your insurance hikes, I'm guessing your under 30 YO? Not gonna give you any advice on how to handle it. Did you already use your one "freebie"? ie... the DMV class? not sure what that costs in AL but it usually was about the same as the ticket but nothing is reported/recorded.

I am always happy to learn from someone who knows the law and knows when they are wrong. They are darned hard to find. None in the slammer from most accounts, not many in lawyers offices and darned few in traffic court.

Different states have different laws concerning insurance rates and traffic citations. They also change from time to time. If allowed to run with the ball these insurance companies would find reason to add bloody parking tickets to anyone's queue to get more bucks in the till. Some states allow the insurance companies as many a five years of accumulated paid citations allowing them to raise rates. Bend over dude.

Paying "it" is just (pardon the cliche') the tip of the iceberg. The paper trail is now computerized and the insurance folks have computers like Crays. They have stuff on most of us that we forgot twenty years ago. If you want to have some fun, go see your "friendly" agent and tell him or her that under The Freedom Of Information Act, you wish to see any and all data collected by your insurer from outside sources.



If the citing officer does not appear in court, the idea being that cross examining a piece of paper is impossible, you walk. Many times if the proper subpoenas are filed the hassle of bringing a bunch of electronic equipment, a certified pile of paperwork the citing officer and the certified technician who calibrated said equipment is so much trouble,the heat doesn't show and you walk.

Under your philosophy it looks like that balance scale the symbol of justice holds is weighted with a heavy guilt trip.



Sorry bout the mispelt nom de plume. Guess I have seen too many Krustys on The Simpsons or cops eating Krusty Krispy Kremes.

[TimRav]

Stepping away from the flames above...

There are a ton of factors that determine your insurance premiums - and again, no two companies seem to compute them the same way.

Factors include, but are not limited to:
Your age
Driving history, including citations and accidents/claims
Your education level
Your marital status
# of dependents
Homeowner or renter
Your credit rating
Your income level
Where you live
Your occupation
Where you work (location)
Where you park the bike at night (street, driveway, garage, etc)
How far you ride to work
Primary type of riding done on the bike (commuting, recreational, etc)
Coverage levels (liability only vs. full coverage)
Deductible amounts
Coverage bought from an agent or online
# of years insured with the same company
Own outright or make payments on the bike
Make, model and year of bike
Style of bike (cruiser, sportbike, tourer, standard, etc)
Purchase price of bike
Added coverage for mods
How many other bikes you own/insure w/the same company
How high a theft target the bike is
How everyone else rides said bike (squids/crashes)
MSF or other safety course completed
How long you've been riding
Fully licensed or temp permit holder
Mandatory helmet law or not

As always when it comes to insurance, YMMV.

[crustyrider]

I am always happy to learn from someone who knows the law and knows when they are wrong. They are darned hard to find. None in the slammer from most accounts, not many in lawyers offices and darned few in traffic court.

Different states have different laws concerning insurance rates and traffic citations. They also change from time to time. If allowed to run with the ball these insurance companies would find reason to add bloody parking tickets to anyone's queue to get more bucks in the till. Some states allow the insurance companies as many a five years of accumulated paid citations allowing them to raise rates. Bend over dude.

Paying "it" is just (pardon the cliche') the tip of the iceberg. The paper trail is now computerized and the insurance folks have computers like Crays. They have stuff on most of us that we forgot twenty years ago. If you want to have some fun, go see your "friendly" agent and tell him or her that under The Freedom Of Information Act, you wish to see any and all data collected by your insurer from outside sources.



If the citing officer does not appear in court, the idea being that cross examining a piece of paper is impossible, you walk. Many times if the proper subpoenas are filed the hassle of bringing a bunch of electronic equipment, a certified pile of paperwork the citing officer and the certified technician who calibrated said equipment is so much trouble,the heat doesn't show and you walk.

Under your philosophy it looks like that balance scale the symbol of justice holds is weighted with a heavy guilt trip.



Sorry bout the mispelt nom de plume. Guess I have seen too many Krustys on The Simpsons or cops eating Krusty Krispy Kremes.

I don't need you to tell me how traffic court works....I spent a few days attendind traffic court as an LEO.

I seriously doubt that my insurance company has anything on me from 20 years ago. like I said before if I'm wrong I'll pay the fine there is no guilt involved in that.

as far as a mountain of paperwork for the records on the radar instrument ..nah its really not it should be at least for me it was a folder that had all the proper documentation in it.. really easy to keep up to date.

[Badbilly]

I don't need you to tell me how traffic court works....I spent a few days attendind traffic court as an LEO.

I seriously doubt that my insurance company has anything on me from 20 years ago. like I said before if I'm wrong I'll pay the fine there is no guilt involved in that.

as far as a mountain of paperwork for the records on the radar instrument ..nah its really not it should be at least for me it was a folder that had all the proper documentation in it.. really easy to keep up to date.

Since "attendind traffic court as an LEO" It might be well to dispense with corrections of other's spelling, grammar and punctuation. This is germane to the conversation in that mispelt street names on a citation does not apprise the court of the specific location of the alleged incident. I will look on a handy-dandy map site and see if I can find a Krusty street somewhere and send any corrections to the proper authority in your behalf.

Were you a LEO in California or elsewhere? Nice to have an expert on the California Vehicle Code on board if this is so.


You should be aware that in court a folder with "documentation" carries with the court the same weight as an attmpt to cross examine any other piece of paper. The citing officer has documentation only to the extent of same being records. Rare is the case where the citing officer is the electronic or calibration technician.

Dude, this stuff is so basic in even a paperback "how to beat a ticket in court" that anybody with a dimes worth of sense can spot holes where they exist.

You are welcome to your own guilt trips of course. A little scary but I do understand.

[Badbilly]

[QUOTE=Cyborg;219878]I don't know how much simpler I can put it to you but here goes. I've got the one ticket, that's one, numero uno, a single ticket, individual and alone, the only ticket of any kind I've had since 1997. Geico is wanting to raise my rates for the one single running-a-red-light ticket, and nothing else. They have specifically said the parking lot at-fault in 2007 (no ticket) was not a factor because the pay-out was less than $500. Get it now? As to your Nazi crack, fuck you asshole

Is this parking lot thing something that should be included in your difficulty? All factors that are reason for raising your rates almost 100% should be taken into account. One single guilty citation surely is not the hingepoint. Knowing your credit rating is something you should know since it's a factor. Any other legal battles going on? Divorce, Failure to pay child support, arrests, Emails you fired off in anger, letters to officials, somebody you tangled with who is nailing you? Were you with Geico in 1997 or was that the last ticket you got and pled guilty to?

Have you spoken with any Giego official above agent level or inquired at the Alabama State level Insurance Regulator Dept?

I hope you were more forthcoming to State Farm. These companies swap info. I would submit that since you put your foot in Geico's figurative ass you have been getting solictations in your mailbox for purchasing new insurance.

Thanks for the offer of the sexual favor but I am into women. If you don't want to be the Obergruppefuherer of syntax, How does Grand Kleagle sound?

Still saying that one ticket sure has got you paying off like a rigged slot machine. My advice is to go to NOLO Press and get yourself a book on how to win in traffic court. About 15-20 bucks if you can't find a copy in your public library.

Almost forgot. If that judge being "pissed off " at some lawyer affected the decision regarding your case that is grounds for an appeal.

[Cyborg]

Is this parking lot thing something that should be included in your difficulty? All factors that are reason for raising your rates almost 100% should be taken into account. One single guilty citation surely is not the hingepoint. Knowing your credit rating is something you should know since it's a factor. Any other legal battles going on? Divorce, Failure to pay child support, arrests, Emails you fired off in anger, letters to officials, somebody you tangled with who is nailing you? Were you with Geico in 1997 or was that the last ticket you got and pled guilty to?

Again, Geico specifically said the parking lot accident was not a factor and yes they knew about it because they paid off on it. Again, the ticket was the sole and single reason for the rate change. NOTHING ELSE.

Have you spoken with any Giego official above agent level or inquired at the Alabama State level Insurance Regulator Dept?

With Geico, I talked to the agent, the agent's supervisor and a "Customer Retention Specialist", with no positive results. The State regulator said Geico was within their rights.

I hope you were more forthcoming to State Farm. These companies swap info. I would submit that since you put your foot in Geico's figurative ass you have been getting solictations in your mailbox for purchasing new insurance.

I told them everything. As I posted before, SF doesn't care about the parking lot because it was less than $500. As for the foot in ass observation, you got something right, amazing given I posted several times doing just that.

Thanks for the offer of the sexual favor but I am into women. If you don't want to be the Obergruppefuherer of syntax, How does Grand Kleagle sound?

I would dearly like for you to call me that to my face.

Still saying that one ticket sure has got you paying off like a rigged slot machine. My advice is to go to NOLO Press and get yourself a book on how to win in traffic court. About 15-20 bucks if you can't find a copy in your public library.

Sorry, unlike you, I don't dodge out like that. I ran the light, I paid the fine.

Almost forgot. If that judge being "pissed off " at some lawyer affected the decision regarding your case that is grounds for an appeal.

For once, we agree but the appeal would have cost me way more cash and time than I had to spare back then.