Being robbed

[Jaymz]

For one when I bought my truck gas was less than $2 a gallon. Anyone can voice a different view of things and make it look like they know everything. But unless you actually live it you don't have a clue.

I would like to see you plow with a lawn tractor. It may be ok for Joe Blow that owns a yard the size of a postage stamp but it just doesn't work up here.

I don't live on a private road I live on a state operated road and thats just the way things operate.

As far as a choice of where I live. Last I checked I didn't really have much choice on where I was born and raised. I wouldn't really complain to much but a few years ago I had a good job working at a paper mill making about $70k a year which is alot here in Maine. Due to something called the free trade agreement our mill (that was turning a profit) as well as severall other mills in the state where closed. I It took over a year to get a full time job with benifits. at a rate of $7 an hour, I lost $50k a year. but thats a story for another time.
I just wanted to point out that elected officials screw the little guy in more ways than just high gas prices.

The Maine motto should be: Maine The Highest Taxed Lowest Paid.

sorry for getting upset but it's a sore subject.

[dlman]

I think a better way to beat the gas stations is to change driving habits. Don't drive unless you have to. That should work for the short term to save money.

[John451]

Originally Posted by Spike

Plus rear wheel drive, for those that do face snow on a regular basis might be tricky.

Hate to play devils advocate but take those that need a 4*4's for snow or true off road out of the equation, would their be any oversized 4*4's left driving around in the areas that don't need them. ?

Used to work for a US company that required me to work in the Atlanta office from time to time, the manager of the section there used to do a 2 hour each way single person commute from Alabama in a (to me) gigantic Chev Silverado 3500, funny when GAS prices started to rise was when he started to complain about his weekly commmute costs, obviously its not his fault but the GAS companys.

While my private judgment was that above is a worst case example of unnesessary Petrolium usage, an old guy in the same office would take me around weekends to see the quite beautiful Georgian country side in an old Dodge Ram. Could see his need as he would go hunting in it regularly, mind he also went out of his to say it was a RWD and with common sense, LSD and his winch had never had problems getting stuck anywhere.

The USA is not isolated in the area of large / Medium redundant SUV's running around, the amount of mums that turn up to my kids school in Land Cruisers, Jeep Cherokees and our locally made 4*4 Ford Terratorys is mind boggeling, with one particularly aggressive lady in a Black Mercedes 5 Litre M class with " Godzilla " number plates making it her mission to tail gate anyone in front of her.

The point being that to most people a large SUV is not a useful tool used to overcome environmental challenge's rather a 100% city based ego extension with no other purpose but to feel powerful, one that I'm sorry to say steals oil recklessly from our childrens future.

[Jaymz]

On a bit of a side note high gas prices don't just hit us at the pump. Think about all the 18 wheelers out there that haul our goods from place to place or the plane that flies your family here and there. prices for goods and alternate transportation are also rising. I'm not sure what it cost to ride the bus but I bet that if the price hasn't risen it will soon. So it doesn't matter if you drive Big Foot or ride a tricycle gas prices affect everyone.

[PorscheBob]

Originally Posted by dlman

Bubba,
I missed it where you called him a name and I have read your post many times. However, if he is talking about socialism like its the only thing to save us from ourselves than I can see where he deserves the moniker of liberal. But conservation to socialist mindsets only comes into play when they are talking about the less equal animal then themselves. And to save the forests from human interaction like removing the fuel so one little spark will light up a whole forest. And stopping hunting deer because its more humane to let them over populate and starve since there is no other predators around. If you was calling him a liberal then you should be ashamed its not their fault. Liberals feel they owe a great debt to their fellow man, a debt they plan to repay with your money. They didn't think about if their feel good ideas would work in the real world. It just looked good to them at the time. Give people with government jobs power over something and they will do as little as they can stretching their muscles ever chance they get. Don't believe me go to the DMV sometime. They are bastards.

When he called me porscheCastro (Cuba) I took that as an insult. I know my suggestion would probably sound socialistic, but it seems to be the only thing that might pull in the reins on runaway gas prices. But, me socialistic...hah!
My politics are a little right of Atilla-the-hun. The real problem here is that we are preaching-to-the-choir. We need to hammer the politicians not ourselves.
My 3 cents (inflation).

[tbones86]

All right time to jump on board, I own two SUV's currently a 00' Ford Expedition that was purchased out of neccesity because it accomadates transporting the entire family in one vehicle; 6 kids 2 adults. The Ford is 4wd w/ the small displacement 4.6 ltr V8 & gets 18 Mpg, the 4wd is nice as my wife & myself both have long commutes & neither has the luxury of calling in because of bad weather(Neonatal ICU Nurse & glorified diesel mechanic w/ a $10 job title for a major trucking fleet). I also own a 1995 Isuzu Trooper which was my daily driver until about two months ago, also 4wd 5 passenger 3.2 ltr V6 that got @ best 18 mpg. This comparison is mainly to point out that I filled a family requirement by getting a larger vehicle that acheives the same fuel usage as my now semi retired Trooper which required taking two vehicles if the "whole fam damily" needed to go somewhere. In essence it is more economic to have the big SUV than to take 2 smaller supposedly more economic vehicles. I also own 2 small sedans a 04' Chevy Cavelier which gets 32 mpg consistantly(my 03' sport coupe w/ 5spd got 40) that is now my daily driver & a 95' VW jetta which also gets around 32 mpg. The therory behind the two sedans & two SUV's was simple, I'd have my hunting vehicle & emergency 4X4 vehicle by keeping the 'zuzu' but I have now opted to put the old girl up for sale. The wife would also have a kid hauler & 4x4 for her use & we would have two sedans to run back & forth to work with. Then reality hits when you have to maintain that many vehicles, the VW is an untrustworthy money pit & therefore has been demoted to driveway orniment & rust manufacture. The Chevy even being a wrench I have to take it into the dealer to read the cryptic & extremely vague fault codes & hope I can con someone into telling me what I need to fix so I can do it myself(easier said than done). The Ford, knock on wood has been trouble free but will also suffer the same fate. So from an out of pocket expense perspective it makes more sence for some to have the big gas guzzling SUV as there soul source of transport. Then I have my toys the VFR, the hot rod Ford P/U & a snowmobile; none of which I really care about how good of mileage they get because those are the things that bring joy & recreation to my life. But gas prices do curtail my useage of those items(except the bike).
That brings up another interesting point seeing as how I live in an area where a lot of peoples livelyhoods depend on recreational ORV's such as ATV's, Dirt bikes & snowmobiles. The high prices of gasoline have curtailed useage of these items & have had huge economic impacts business are closing(taverns, hotels, gas stations, mom & pop stores), manufactures are laying off workers because of decreased demands( polaris's snowmobile division ) & on down the line to effect the camping industry, theme parks & other tourist attractions, realistically it will even put a damper on going out for dinner & a movie. The impact is & will be very far reaching & is effecting people far beyond the price paid @ the pump. There are towns in northern WI that are quite literally dying. I agree w/ Mrs. Zanetti that this will not be the collapse of the US or the world we will survive. But all these little things will add up to much higher costs for everything we need & do. Taxes will also increase dramatically as more people reach out for goverment aid due to loss of income/livelyhood. We will all pay dearly & it won't even matter if alternate power sources are derived & widely used as someone or group will figure out how to drive the market shares for what ever those items may be through the roof as well. Figure electric cars will need batteries, if every one switches to those whats to stop battery manufactures from charging you a $1000 dollars a peice to buy a replacement battery & they will have several that will need to be replaced all at the same time or you won't get the max. life out of the new ones. Any kind of alternate fuel will suffer the same way, someone mentioned the price of water per gallon, can you imagine how much that would go up if it was used as a viable fuel source. The point is now matter what it is not going to get any cheaper to live in the world we have created for ourselves unless there is a complete socioeconomic breakdown & everyone has to start from nothing again. Even that would be short lived as it would build to the same point its in our nature we are flawed creatures & will ultimatly be the cause of our own demise.

[John451]

Originally Posted by tbones86

was purchased out of neccesity because it accomadates transporting the entire family in one vehicle; 6 kids 2 adults.
...
The point is now matter what it is not going to get any cheaper to live in the world we have created for ourselves unless there is a complete socioeconomic breakdown & everyone has to start from nothing again. Even that would be short lived as it would build to the same point its in our nature we are flawed creatures & will ultimatly be the cause of our own demise.

You raise many valid points especially about no current alternate replacment to oil and obviously have a genuine need for a large vehicle to transport a large family through variable conditions.

Being no Greenie and no wish to give up my VFR used 85% of the time for fun but a realist means I can see fuel prices will continue to rise naturally no matter what as oil runs out, the big rises will come once "Peak Oil" hits which is sooner than later.

Who's old enough here to remember the Oil supply crisies of the 1973 where people were rationed to only small amounts, whats to happen if this was caused not artificially by the Arab league mad at the West for supporting Israel but by the worlds oil fields actually running dry ?

As rightfully stated their is no magic solution that still allows for the current freedom of personal transport, I'm hoping for one to make itself known as I want my cake and eat it too, the problem is how to stretch the current supply last as long as possible until technology supplies a viable answer.

"Peak Oil" Linky:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

[JRotten]

Originally Posted by ZonaMan

I don't think "greenies" or anyone else for that matter applaud rises in gas
prices. We all know the ramifications of expensive fuels, whether it's gasoline, diesel, or methane.

If you were versed in global affairs, Porshebob, you would then know that we do have it pretty good here right now.

Netherlands Amsterdam $6.48
Norway Oslo $6.27
Italy Milan $5.96
Denmark Copenhagen $5.93
Belgium Brussels $5.91
Sweden Stockholm $5.80
United Kingdom London $5.79
Germany Frankfurt $5.57
France Paris $5.54
Portugal Lisbon $5.35
Hungary Budapest $4.94
Luxembourg $4.82
Croatia Zagreb $4.81
Ireland Dublin $4.78
Switzerland Geneva $4.74
Spain Madrid $4.55
Japan Tokyo $4.24
Czech Republic Prague $4.19
Romania Bucharest $4.09
Andorra $4.08
Estonia Tallinn $3.62
Bulgaria Sofia $3.52
Brazil Brasilia $3.12
Cuba Havana $3.03

Last, if your screen-name implies what I think it does, with your impressive stable of bikes, and living in CA, you of all people should not be complaining about gas prices and telling other people that their facts are crap.

I would have to say that those countires list their gas prices by the liter, not the gallon. Correct if I am wrong, but there are 3.8 liters to a gallon which would about quadruple the price.

If you are looking for someone to blame for high oil prices, look at OPEC and world trade commision. Each state has their own taxes per gas and so does federal take their chunk of revenue from the local pumps.

[Jaymz]

A few stations around here post the taxes per gallon on the pump so you can see just how much the Gov't leaches from you everytime you fill up.
I also think that even if we had an alternative fuel they would base the price on the current price of the only fuel source that we know. (oil) And then the Gov't would tax the crap out of it.

[chesthing]

Originally Posted by Bubba Zanetti

Chesthing,

Economical collapse? No, America and the rest of the world have moved to a global economy. I forsee a economical pinch that may affect many countries, mainly the developed world (US and Europe) with China and India using so much fossil fuel technology. These two countires will become the dominent cutomers of the middle east and I think this will cause our prices on fossil fuel technologies to skyrocket. What I question in all this is we live in a very innovative market driven society, so you think our market would be adapting to this, but my husband Dan (I guess you know him as Bubba Zanetti) and I recently watched the documentry "Who Killed The Electric Car". I felt it really encapsulated the mentality of our government and car industry in its reluctance to accept new technologies that appear to have a market and could spawn a whole new industrial base in this country, but are pushed to the wayside for current profits. So my prediction is be prepared to spend more on all products that are based in fossil fuel technologies. Our society will adapt to it like we always have...remember the Great Depression.

Global collapse? Again, probabley not. Us scientists have really only been tracking the weather patterns for about the last 150 years. However, we do have the ability to see into the past weather patterns with oceanic and Antartic ice core samples. So I DO believe global warming is a fact and it will continue to cause "extreme" weather behavior and patterns. But I don't think it will wipe us out. The human species is very very adaptive. We are almost like whitetail deer. Humans come in and develope an area and although the forest is gone, the deer stay around. I am sure many of you have seen this phenomina. Humans are not much different.

Everybody is all doom and gloom. My husband grew up during the cold war so he likes movies about 'the end of the world'. The cold war ended as I was coming of age, so I don't have the same outlook and don't always relate to that thinking.

Time will tell as the data is collected and the weather changes.

I hope I answered your questions.

Jen or Ms. Zanetti

That's an optimistic view of the near future, but I think in the next couple hundred years our world will look like Mad Max's. If you look at where civilization was 150 years ago and again today, the gargantuan steps we have taken are due 100% to fossil fuel. Electricity, transportation, etc. has all been powered by it. Running out of fossil fuel is much much different than a cold war between 2 superpowers or the depression. Thanks for your input though, I just can't see anything that's going to change the innevitable.

[dlman]

I don't see us going into a colapse because we run low on fossil fuel. Just those with old mustangs and jet powered ATV's like Mad Max will fail to adapt. These things are just not meant to run on anything but gasoline. But you forget in Mad Max 2 the thunderdome they used methane to power barter town. We will adjust just like they did.

[Kevin_70]

To me, common sense begs the question: If oil companies are reporting record profits and we're also seeing record prices at the pump, is this not a direct relationship?

Ever notice how gas prices spike almost every year just before summer? It's completely artificial, supply hasn't changed, what's the coincidence that summer is also the highest driving period for most people?

I'm usually the first to balk at any kind of government regulation, but I gotta side with PorscheBob here, it's an industry wrought with too much greed that needs guidelines.

[Zerosum]

It is getting crazy... I filled my VFR up the other day, and it cost me close to $20! Ouch! I could fill my *car* up for that 7 or 8 years ago.

[VaRollOn]

We are only done for if we fail to innovate. Hydrogen fuel cells are the future my bretheren, or something akin to it. Solar is too wasteful in the process. Perhaps a crap-mobile that converts to methane.

A good historical example of how innovators get squeezed was the tire manufacturers/oil companies putting the trolly trains in San Fran out of business through political and business pressure. Until the market forces these companies to shift why should they? What scares me is the cover up aspect. How many patents owned by Exxon etc.. are in deep vaults to never see light of day.

Remember the movie "The Saint" w/ Val Kilmer. Cold fusion baby, that and nuclear are our real only hope of mass electricity, this other issue of petrol effects not only business but transit, and every other thing we buy or use. I feel more fearful than ever of where we are headed, government buying Co2 credits to offset carbon emmisions "oh my god" its snake oil only you don't get the oil. Add in the new immigration bill and we are in for some real problems up the road for our poor kids. Bury the cash and ammunition, well maybe only the ammo, the cash might be kindling.

[Bubba Zanetti]

Originally Posted by chesthing

That's an optimistic view of the near future, but I think in the next couple hundred years our world will look like Mad Max's. If you look at where civilization was 150 years ago and again today, the gargantuan steps we have taken are due 100% to fossil fuel. Electricity, transportation, etc. has all been powered by it. Running out of fossil fuel is much much different than a cold war between 2 superpowers or the depression. Thanks for your input though, I just can't see anything that's going to change the innevitable.

My wife is an optimistic person!

I never thought she would be typing something on VFR world.

This thread is the strangest one I think I have been a part of! People are all worked up with no place to go LOL!

BZ

[tbones86]

Originally Posted by VaRollOn

We are only done for if we fail to innovate. Hydrogen fuel cells are the future my bretheren, or something akin to it. Solar is too wasteful in the process. Perhaps a crap-mobile that converts to methane.

A good historical example of how innovators get squeezed was the tire manufacturers/oil companies putting the trolly trains in San Fran out of business through political and business pressure. Until the market forces these companies to shift why should they? What scares me is the cover up aspect. How many patents owned by Exxon etc.. are in deep vaults to never see light of day.

Remember the movie "The Saint" w/ Val Kilmer. Cold fusion baby, that and nuclear are our real only hope of mass electricity, this other issue of petrol effects not only business but transit, and every other thing we buy or use. I feel more fearful than ever of where we are headed, government buying Co2 credits to offset carbon emmisions "oh my god" its snake oil only you don't get the oil. Add in the new immigration bill and we are in for some real problems up the road for our poor kids. Bury the cash and ammunition, well maybe only the ammo, the cash might be kindling.

What ever they come up with to replace fossil fuels they will still find a way to screw us all with it. Invest in gold & silver or get your hands on a piece of that 500 million worth of gold & silver they hauled off the bottom of the ocean off the coast of Florida. They say history repeats itself & I've always wanted to be a "pyrat", think we could get away w/ comendeering oil tankers & selling the loot to the highest bidder. It would be kinda nice to be on the receiving end of record profits wouldn't it