Being robbed

[derstuka]

Originally Posted by Knife

How about removing some of the enormous taxes on gasoline, or at least dropping them temporarily until we can once again drill for our own oil, refine our own gasoline, and build nuclear facilities? We've gotten silly, and now we're paying for it. It's our own fault.

Hey! Gasoline tax is what pays for (supposed to at least) our twisty roads! I doubt all of it goes to that though...

I do agree with others that we have shot ourselves in the foot. Too many restrictions on new refineries to be built. And of course nobody wants them in their backyard as well as the 20 years of environmental litigation they must go thru. We have the oil coming in, but cannot refine it fast enough for demand. Not to mention us greedy americans using our gas-guzzling Hummer H2's to go pick up the kids from soccer and get some groceries. Nobody wants to use mass transit in socal. Everybody is too in love with their cars. I would use mass transit to work if it was feasible and I didn't have to take 3 different buses and spend 1.5 hours each way to go 10 miles.

Think about how "you" would survive for one month...ok, more doable to start....let's make it one weekend, without a car. Only using mass transit, your two feet, and/or bicycle.

If everybody that could afford to got a more fuel efficient vehicle instead of a lifted F150 on 44 inch mudders for their daily drivers, and/or used more mass transit, and/or car-pooled, we would be in a much greater position as far as reducing demand. Too bad the big three are too stupid to realize that. They have the philosophy that "as long as it is selling why change?" Now they are stuck in a pickle. They were too used to having the upper hand, and now Toyota and Honda are laughing all the way to the bank. If they only would have looked towards the future like toyota and honda do and not just keep kicking out 300hp 15mpg cars.

[derstuka]

oh, I don't think we will ever really know we have reached peak ok...more oil is out there, it is just much harder to find and much more expensive to extract. It starts to lose out on the profitability of extracting and refining it for sale.

That crown prince in Dubai (the one who is building all of those palm tree islands and the world's tallest building) knows that oil will not last forever, and that is why he is building all of that real estate and business empire before it runs out.

[Spike]

Originally Posted by alexi

Dude you get 50000 miles out of your car tires and better mileage out of it than your bike. What kind of car do you drive? There is no way my car is cheaper to run than my bike, not even close!!

It is easy to find car tires with warranty ratings of 40-000 to 60,000 miles. Not performance tires for a 911, but all season, name brand, radials for the "family sedan" is a piece of cake.

The VFR sucks as far as gas mileage really, when you compare it to other bikes.

[Nungboy]

DerSTuka is right...it is hard to find a more secretive business than the Big Oil. They don't WANT you to know. Misinformation abounds. But trust me (and my BS degree in Geology), they are every day perfecting new methods to find, extract, process, and mostly, PROFIT from what is left in the ground.

[Spike]

Originally Posted by Nungboy

DerSTuka is right...it is hard to find a more secretive business than the Big Oil. They don't WANT you to know. Misinformation abounds. But trust me (and my BS degree in Geology), they are every day perfecting new methods to find, extract, process, and mostly, PROFIT from what is left in the ground.

But that is what business does, make a profit, otherwise the business goes out of business. That is what capitalism is all about.

[Nungboy]

Spike is right, of course. When the business being discussed is the stereo company, or the bike company or the pool table company, I think we all completely understand. But here is the question for society: when it is your water company your food company, and your energy companies...is it OK for THEM to be intensely secretive?

I am not sure.

[Spike]

The utility companies are I think highly regulated and tightly monitored everywhere. I know they are in the 4 states I have lived in, and I would guess nearly everywhere else.

is the burning of gas really for the "good of society"
does it matter the vehicle? the reason for the trip? whether public transit could have been used?
where do you draw the line? it is tough, cause we won't all agree

are, and I am actually asking, I don't know, the major gas companies really that much more secretive than say Coca Cola? or Charles Schwab?

Originally Posted by Nungboy

Spike is right, of course. When the business being discussed is the stereo company, or the bike company or the pool table company, I think we all completely understand. But here is the question for society: when it is your water company your food company, and your energy companies...is it OK for THEM to be intensely secretive?

I am not sure.

[Spike]

interesting...

http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/13/news...ex.htm?cnn=yes

[Nungboy]

My opinion is that, fundamentally speaking, all businesses (big businesses) are similar. They want to make the most profit they can. Not just A profit but the MOST profit. Is that wrong? No. It IS capitalism. But, if I choose to pay too high for a non-essential product (say, a Harley Davidson), that is my choice. But, is it right when something essential costs me much more than it "should?" You say regulated...well, ever hear of the scandals to rock the rate commissions in many states? How about the California electric scandals a few years back? If you assume that governments and rate commisions are all above board and without graft, I suggest that is too simple of a view. I WANT them to be...I just don't think many are honest and have the interests of the common man in mind.

Ultimately my responsibility, as a consumer, is to buy into the "system" or not. If we all banded together and voted with our money, we COULD change things. Most of us are too busy and make enough money to just pay the bill.

(P.S. don't forget, oil goes into much more than your fuel tank...so many essential products are derived from oil)

[Kevin_70]

Originally Posted by Spike

are, and I am actually asking, I don't know, the major gas companies really that much more secretive than say Coca Cola? or Charles Schwab?

Accounting is an art, not a science. Enron ring any bells? If you're a CEO or CFO and already know the end result you're wanting, the accounting can, and often is, adjusted accordingly, GAAP principles be damned.

[PuCaudata]

Originally Posted by Nungboy

Ultimately my responsibility, as a consumer, is to buy into the "system" or not. If we all banded together and voted with our money, we COULD change things. Most of us are too busy and make enough money to just pay the bill.

I agree...capitalism is directly supported by people putting money into the system (READ: spending money). However, I don't think people have to be lied to by the government and corporations to want to put money into the system. If good products and services were offered to the country, "funding" the system wouldn't be a problem. The issue takes form when these companies want to maximize their profit by offering sub-par services and products or constantly increase the price of something that hasn't changed from our benefit of new technology. If you think about it, technological advancement should make things easier and more efficient to produce and, therefore, cheaper. Just my thoughts on the subject.

[Nungboy]

Yes, the Plutonium Salamander has a good point. When the system works, a good product or service at a good price point is available it sells well. When junk is produced it becomes clear eventually and the product goes away because people wise up and do not buy. But when a critical/essential product goes up in price not for legitimate reasons but for profiteering, we all are relatively helpless...either pay the price or do without. The latter choice may be very difficult. That is what the business entity is planning on...that we will just "put up" and pay the price. Increasingly, many companies feel it is only right for them to jump on the bandwagon and charge excessively. But, then we end up in a crisis where everyone is charging huge amounts for every product and service. Things go from bad to worse in that case. I hope we are not moving towards that but I sense we are.

[nozzle]

is it me, or does it seem like elf start the exact same thread over again?

oh, stay on topic...

You can call them oil companies, but I think they are run by folks that are savy enough to have them being our energy companies in the future. When the irreplaceable fossil fuels run out, the Exxon, Shells, and others will be offering Hydrogen or whatever is the next fuel source.

[00vfr]

Just remember folks that we(Amercicans) voted these lardpots into office and the beauty of it is.....we can vote them out.Although I am a firm beleiver that you only go into politics when you are incapapble of making an honest living.Everybody does their part somehow,the Hippies put a "rare" frog up on a hill in a valley in California:The government comes back and says it's now a protected area.No oil drilling allowed. Meanwhile the Hippies do more damage while driving their Volkswagon bus down the hill leaking oil the entire way.
The middle class:We keep buying SUV's instead of motorcycles. I am guilty of my big 4wd trucks and my muscle cars too,but I suck it up and gripe every time I have to fill up anything.The reason,I like my big old stuff because the cost of owning it is less than a car payment by a greedy big company that will fold up next week.It's all about greed,all the way from the top to the bottom.When the feds finally have their b@ll@ drop and realize that it's the big companies that are driving the prices of everything through the roof and decides to act........we will be free,free at last.

Now lets go for a ride!

[cjk]

1. I would think the profit on a gallon of gas is pretty small. Its just when you multiply it by the millions(billions ?) of gallons it generates big money. This is America after all.

2. The government, if involved with the oil industry, would cause the price of gas to skyrocket. The people involved just to oversee it would cost millions. Then add all the waste that happens when .gov gets its hands into anything. Have you ever seen an efficient government program? Anyone heard of $17000. hammers or toilet seats?

3. The only way to reduce your fuel cost is to USE LESS. If you are driving 160 miles a day to work and back, thats your decision. Moving closer could possibly save a ton of money. Personally, my commute is 8 miles round trip, reduced from 50 several years ago.

4. There are ways to eliminate buying gas. Most people wont tolerate the inconveniences. We are spoiled.

[johnnyb]

the government makes an average of 50 cents on a gallon of gas through taxes.

the big bad companies make 3-8 cents profit.

who is the crook? we need more oil and more gas. its not he companies fault.

where is the outrage on the "profits" the government is making?

[cjk]

But .gov works for us right? They are just doing what "we" ask them to do. If we ask them to do more, they need more $$$ to do it with.

There is always someone asking them to do something. Not enough of us asking them to do less.

[Knife]

Oil is the life blood of this country, the engine that drives everything. It isn't evil, it's good. We need to drill our asses off to get more, now, immediately. The greater the supply, the lower the cost. And we don't have to "destroy" the environment to do it; that's a myth, just like global warming.

[BLUE_MKIV]

Originally Posted by Spike

Uhhh, yeaupp, compared to most of the world that is cheap.

Also, what was a quart of drinking water in the same stop? Typically 0.99 or more, which puts bottled water at over $4 a gallon. And an awful lot of that stuff comes out of the tap.

But think about it. The oil field has to be found, lot of exploration, lot of drilling dry wells. Then you have to get it out of the ground -- not cheap or easy. Then you have to ship it, halfway around the world. Maintain a system of docks to do the offload, and secure them. Again, not cheap. Now you have to refine it, expensive and dangerous. Now send it thru a pipeline in many cases to a local distributership, how much does it cost to build and maintain something like that? Now truck it to your local stand, while abiding by all the hazardous waste over the highway rules.

$4 is nothing. Percentage wise, the gas companies certainly aren't making what the water companies are making, I am sure. Or perfume, or possibly even milk.

I have no idea that massive amounts of people will hop on public transportation, they won't, but certainly some will. But more likely it will change what people choose to buy & drive. And where and how they choose to dr