Regulator/Rectifier

[85vf1000r]

Well, after having put 700-800 miles on my '85 VF1000R I've had my first breakdown!

The charging system isn't working on the bike and going by the FSM it appears that the diodes in the regulator/rectifier are shot. With the bike running and revving I'm only getting 12-12.5 volts, which obviously isn't going to keep the battery charged when the system is supposed to put out 13.5-15 volts.

The previous owner did a repair to the wires coming from the stator. I guess the plastic plug that joins the stator wiring to the reg/rec wiring had deteriorated so he just cut the plug off and replaced it with spade connectors. When I was checking things over I found one of the wires pulled right out of the spade connector which was not crimped hard enough to hold it securely. Could this loose wire have caused my regulator to fail? And on that note, does it matter which of the 3 yellow wires coming from the stator goes to which yellow wire coming from the reg/rec?

Finally, should I go with an OEM replacement (or used unit?) or should I spring for the $99 eBay unit: HONDA VF1000R Regulator Rectifier 84-86:eBay Motors (item 290317605716 end time Jun-14-09 13:14:39 PDT)

Also, any other areas I should double check before replacing the reg/rec to ensure the new one will not fail?

Thanks in advance for your help!!

-Paul

[gunnarf06]

Hey

The current from the stator are ac current so it doesn´t matter how they are plugged together.Are you sure that your diode are shorted in your regulator.At 5000 rpm you should get the max voltage 15V and then when you give it more gas the amps will just rise not the voltage.Mesure the stator (that is mesuring between the yellow wires you should get below 10 ohm and then mesure from yellow wires to boddy then you should get a full restience).If that loose wire was on the stator side then it could short circuit the stator but on the other side (regulator) don´t think so.Your regulator has just gone like all the others did vibration and heat.Could also be the voltage sensor that is damaged the black wire coming from the regulator.Hope this helps.

Best regards

Gunnar

[gunnarf06]

Hey

I would buy aftermarket unit.Has bigger cooling plates and does better against vibration.

Best regards

Gunnar

[85vf1000r]

Thanks! That pretty much re-affirms what my thoughts on the situation were. Revving the bike never gets the voltage even as high as 13 volts, never mind up to 15 volts! Also just running it for a very short period of time the regulator gets warm to the touch. Guess I'll jump on eBay and grab a new one!

-Paul

[85vf1000r]

One other quick question before I buy my new regulator. Has anybody had good/bad experiences with the different brands of aftermarket unit that are available? I looked at Dennis Kirk just for the heck of it and they show two different brands available with a $10-20 price difference between them, then there's the one on eBay, which is the least expensive.

Any recommendations on this would be much appreciated, thanks!

-Paul

[jay956]

i just got one from ricks motorsports, havent used it yet but it looks good and if you do a search you will find nothing but positive review about it.

[eleman]

I have replaced mine on the 4th gen 3 times. This last time I decided to use a RR from a GSXR after seeing it used on this and other forums. It is bigger and has larger fins for cooling. Haven't been running it that long but it checked OK after installation.

[85vf1000r]

Hmmm...Now I'm second guessing myself. Do I go with a r/r made for my bike for upwards of $100 or should I grab one from an '08 GSXR off eBay for $25??

I'm really thinking about trying the GSXR one. Worst case I'm out $25 plus shipping. Best case I save almost $100!!!

edit: Just bit the bullet and grabbed the Gixxer unit. Will let you know how it works out!!

[Ghost]

All my experiences for voltage regulation, and rectify conversion from AC to DC have been rather consistent. I have always seen R/R’s work or not work. You either get voltage across the output or zero. The Rectifier Diodes limit voltage, but only one half of the AC full sine wave. The sine image on an oscilloscope looks something like leapfrog. Suppose one of those three diodes goes out, the leaping is stopped. It doesn’t just skip that frog and keep going.

Sounds to me more like the connection from your generator just needs to be fixed. Note: it is… stress IS possible to get them wired incorrectly. The power from the AC generator operates like a clock. It hits 1 o clock, then 11 o clock, then 6 o clock, and continues the cycle. If its incorrectly wired, and you hit 1 o clock, then 6 o clock, then 11 o clock, and so on, your bike will have diminished voltage output, and the sine wave will be short with long spikes. The power difference isn’t huge, as noted above, its from 16 to 13V.. really not a big deal, but could mean the difference in charging or under charging.

Also note: motorcycle R/R’s will get hot. No if’s, and’s or but’s about it. Electricity produces resistance, and that resistance produces heat. There is no fan built into a R/R, nor do you need one. The internal solder melts at about 190 degrees C. ~ 250 for Fahrenheit people. At that temperature, your plugs, and wire insulation will be soft and the plastic material will begin to break down. After about 36 hrs of this, the plastic will be so brittle it will break with a flick of the finger. Also the outside metal at 250 will begin to illuminate. Not so much you will see a “glow” but the metal will turn color. R/R’s are designed to do so. Making them cool, may actually hurt them. So, to summarize again, they will get hot, its ok. Granted the newer R/R’s have bigger and better engineered fins to dissipate the heat, yet, even the original ones work just fine.

I suggest a meter, new wiring connections and retest before you spend the money.

[85vf1000r]

Thank you sir, for the insight!

I've got a R/R off an '08 GSXR 750 on the way. It was $40 shipped so it's not too much to loose. I have checked most of the wiring and done diode tests on the R/R according the the procedure outlined in the factory service manual. According to those tests the R/R is bad. I am going to verify that there are no shorts or opens in the stator & its wiring before hooking up the new R/R and I did already repair the wire that I found loose coming from the stator.

Now my question is, how should I determine the proper connections from the stator to my new R/R since it is from a different machine? Should I just try each different possibility until I get the highest measured voltage possible? If the stator is "out of phase" so to speak will it damage the R/R or will I just have low charging voltage?

Thanks again for all the help!

-Paul

[gunnarf06]

Originally Posted by Ghost

All my experiences for voltage regulation, and rectify conversion from AC to DC have been rather consistent. I have always seen R/R’s work or not work. You either get voltage across the output or zero. The Rectifier Diodes limit voltage, but only one half of the AC full sine wave. The sine image on an oscilloscope looks something like leapfrog. Suppose one of those three diodes goes out, the leaping is stopped. It doesn’t just skip that frog and keep going.

Sounds to me more like the connection from your generator just needs to be fixed. Note: it is… stress IS possible to get them wired incorrectly. The power from the AC generator operates like a clock. It hits 1 o clock, then 11 o clock, then 6 o clock, and continues the cycle. If its incorrectly wired, and you hit 1 o clock, then 6 o clock, then 11 o clock, and so on, your bike will have diminished voltage output, and the sine wave will be short with long spikes. The power difference isn’t huge, as noted above, its from 16 to 13V.. really not a big deal, but could mean the difference in charging or under charging.

Also note: motorcycle R/R’s will get hot. No if’s, and’s or but’s about it. Electricity produces resistance, and that resistance produces heat. There is no fan built into a R/R, nor do you need one. The internal solder melts at about 190 degrees C. ~ 250 for Fahrenheit people. At that temperature, your plugs, and wire insulation will be soft and the plastic material will begin to break down. After about 36 hrs of this, the plastic will be so brittle it will break with a flick of the finger. Also the outside metal at 250 will begin to illuminate. Not so much you will see a “glow” but the metal will turn color. R/R’s are designed to do so. Making them cool, may actually hurt them. So, to summarize again, they will get hot, its ok. Granted the newer R/R’s have bigger and better engineered fins to dissipate the heat, yet, even the original ones work just fine.

I suggest a meter, new wiring connections and retest before you spend the money.

Hey

If we take a welding machine 400V AC and look into it there we have big regulator three phase and dc current on the other side.Now if this would be right with you Chost then it should matter how the phase go into the machine that is L1,L2 and L3.But it doesn´t because it you can put the phase into the machine anyway you want just if the regulator gets all three phases it sends out the voltage that he should but if it just gets 2 phases then you will get a output but less.
Just like a engine just 3 cylinder if it lost one it gets powerless.If the regulator is heating that much it is taking more amps thruw itself than it should.And when you loose voltage or phase the amps go up.The regulator has 6 diodes and 3 tyristor witch are controlled by a voltage sensor.First to phases (yellow wires) go into the diode brigde and the third goes thruw the tyristors.When the voltage reaches 15V the tyristors open and then the one phase looses.And like before when you loose a phase the voltage goes down or keeps in same possition but the amps go up. Then you can buy a new one regulator that don´t have voltage sensor but have diode that opens or closes after how much voltage go thruw them.It is not enough to check the volts you should also check the amps they should be 11 amps at 1000 rpm and 25 or higher at 5000 rpm.

Hope this helps

Best regards

Gunnar

[Ghost]

Very true Gunnar, but that’s also why there are three different types of diodes, signal, Rectifier, and Soft/Fast recovery diodes. For a simple rectifier of AC to DC, (and a welder is a beautiful example btw, good call!) There are many many many different manufacturers of diodes for many different electrical applications. I will explain why your welder is similar yet different in a second, below, but for now, the simple reason is, the diodes in a charging system are not the same as in a welder.

Some manufacturers specialize in the type of material within each diode, and the type of cathode material inside. I’ll just use two for my example. Zener diodes will allow flow in both directions. When the voltage is passed through forward, it will only go, once it hits a certain minimum requirement. (Here’s where it gets crazy), with the material in the anode, the voltage flowing in the reverse direction gets close or equals the voltage of the forward direction, sorta like a dam, and in lemans terms, “builds up”. No current will flow across the entire diode, until this happens… but once it does a large amount of current can be sustained without blowing the diode. Just like a welder. Welders use LOTS of voltage. There is a product produced called an Avalanche diode. Its basically the exact same as a Zener, except it can handle voltages above 280 volts. Welding has always fascinated me, via the means of a “controlled arc”. So there are diodes which are perfect (Zener and Avalanche) for that application. By no means do we want an arc anywhere near a 12V battery. = POP!

Clearly! This is NOT what is needed to convert AC produced around 50volts per leg, and knock it down per leg to produce 16V to charge a 12V battery. The diodes in a small R/R are just simple silicone diodes. They are smaller and more efficient down to 0.7V crossover.

Gunnar is 100% right on the mark about how the R/R works. First wire goes to bridge, third wire goes to the pass-over. And he is also 100% right that if you drop one of the wires, of the three, before the R/R you will loose your V output. 85vf1000r stated that at one point he noticed one of the wires pulled right out of the spade connector, and wasn’t crimped hard enough to hold it securely. This would lead to both Gunnar’s and my comments. Please make no mistake about my comments. Gunnar is very much correct. We were just talking Granny smith apples vs Sweet red apples.

[gunnarf06]

Hey Chost

It is just half full glass and half empty glass.I just sent out my comments beacause so he wouldn´t misunderstand about Chost comment.I know when I sometime start to talk or write I forget that these things aren´t as simple as I think.If I were you 85vf1000r I would have mesured the AC legs before I had bought the rectifier.I had I problem with my bike it started just to produce 13-13,5V max and I checked the rectifier and mesured the stator and eveything was ok.So I changed the batteri it ran like a champ for 15min the died.Finally I changed the only thing that cannot be mesured.Rotor was damaged didn´t magnetism right.Changed it and my bike still runs and produce 15 V max now.

Best regards

Gunnar

[85vf1000r]

It probably would have been a good idea Gunnar, but at the time I was "doing things by the book" and the FSM does not have a procedure for measuring the AC output of the stator (granted it is a simple measurement to take). The rectifier I got was not expensive so if mine is OK I'm not out much money and I will have a spare in case I need it. I actually also have a used stator and rotor on the way from someone I am buying several parts for my bike from. So if it is either the stator or the rotor I'll be covered there. I'll let you all know what the problem turns out to be, but from my testing the rectifier is bad, but that's not to say there isn't something else bad also!

-Paul

[85vf1000r]

I wired up my new '08 GSX-R 750 R/R tonight and the ole 1000R is charging on her own again! 13.8-14 volts at idle on up to 15-15.1 volts at high RPM! When I pulled the original R/R off I found the back of it cracked open and its "guts" oozing out! I will snap a picture and post it up. As soon as I pulled it off and saw that/smelled the burnt electronics smell I was pretty sure that was the culprit. Testing resistance on the stator confirmed that things were okay internally there.

Thanks again for all the insight!!

-Paul

[gunnarf06]

Originally Posted by 85vf1000r

I wired up my new '08 GSX-R 750 R/R tonight and the ole 1000R is charging on her own again! 13.8-14 volts at idle on up to 15-15.1 volts at high RPM! When I pulled the original R/R off I found the back of it cracked open and its "guts" oozing out! I will snap a picture and post it up. As soon as I pulled it off and saw that/smelled the burnt electronics smell I was pretty sure that was the culprit. Testing resistance on the stator confirmed that things were okay internally there.

Thanks again for all the insight!!

-Paul

Hey

If it that bad I would keep mine eyes at the rotor,stator or the wirings.Regulator doesn´t just go like that (blown appart) there must be something that happened in the alternator.Just so you know

Best regards

Gunnar

[85vf1000r]

It could be, I just bought a spare stator and rotor, so I've got them if I need them. I was wondering if the bad/loose connection that I found from the stator to the R/R could have been the cause?

Being an automotive technician I see regulators and alternators go bad for "no reason" on cars frequently, the system on this bike isn't all that different and it's pretty darn old, so failures are to be expected :) Just fix 'em as they come and ride on!!

-Paul

P.S. I tried all combinations of connections from the stator to the regulator to make sure they were "in phase" with each other. No combination provided any more or less charging voltage than any other combination, FWIW.

[tris1948]

Originally Posted by 85vf1000r

I wired up my new '08 GSX-R 750 R/R tonight and the ole 1000R is charging on her own again! 13.8-14 volts at idle on up to 15-15.1 volts at high RPM! When I pulled the original R/R off I found the back of it cracked open and its "guts" oozing out! I will snap a picture and post it up. As soon as I pulled it off and saw that/smelled the burnt electronics smell I was pretty sure that was the culprit. Testing resistance on the stator confirmed that things were okay internally there.

Thanks again for all the insight!!

-Paul

I had a SV650S previously and they have a reputation for the regulators failing. The solution for those is to fit a Honda one?

Come to Honda and now it appears I need to fit a Suzuki one

I guess the conclusion is that all RRs are Carp

I had one of these http://http://www.aoservices.co.uk/data/bsm.htm on the SV and will fit one on the VFR. It doesn't stop the RR failing but at least you know its gone stupid

[gunnarf06]

Originally Posted by 85vf1000r

It could be, I just bought a spare stator and rotor, so I've got them if I need them. I was wondering if the bad/loose connection that I found from the stator to the R/R could have been the cause?

Being an automotive technician I see regulators and alternators go bad for "no reason" on cars frequently, the system on this bike isn't all that different and it's pretty darn old, so failures are to be expected :) Just fix 'em as they come and ride on!!

-Paul

P.S. I tried all combinations of connections from the stator to the regulator to make sure they were "in phase" with each other. No combination provided any more or less charging voltage than any other combination, FWIW.

Hey

Yeaaahh sure regulator can go because they are old sure but they don´t blow up.It could be because like I and Chost talked about when you lose a fase and the volts go down the amps go up.Could be that it had overloaded that way.I am not sure hard to say when I ain´t there to mesure and check everything.But somewhere there has been a short curcuit.The question is where and why.

Best regards

Gunnar

[85vf1000r]

Got her all put back together today. Everything seems to be OK, but I will keep a close eye on the charging system for a while!

Thanks again (for the millionth time ) for all the help, input, and advice. It is much appreciated!

I attached a couple pictures of the old regulator/rectifier, as well as a shot of the new one installed. I had to drill a couple new holes due to the new unit's larger footprint, but I did get it to fit in the factory location!

-Paul

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by 85vf1000r

Got her all put back together today. Everything seems to be OK, but I will keep a close eye on the charging system for a while!

Thanks again (for the millionth time ) for all the help, input, and advice. It is much appreciated!

I attached a couple pictures of the old regulator/rectifier, as well as a shot of the new one installed. I had to drill a couple new holes due to the new unit's larger footprint, but I did get it to fit in the factory location!

-Paul

Good Job.

This is a good time for everyone to learn a valuable lesson here. #1 rule in Technical Engineering and or troubleshooting ... "walk around the (in this case), bike or component."

You'd be surprised at how often a problem can be properly diagnosed by simply taking a good physical look, and noting what is out of place. Not even touching anything. Here, we could have fore-gone alot and gotten back on the road a lot faster if we'd had take the suspected RR off, and just look at it. We knew the connection was faulty. We should have suspected an arc from one phase to the frame. Thats what you see there... its an arc flash burn. I.e. Gunner and Ghost says, "you drop one phase, Amps go up, resistance is high, the unit arcs, blows, and you're done.

Originally Posted by tris1948

I guess the conclusion is that all RRs are Carp

Now, thats just unfair to fish.

I would like to make one last comment on this subject. When stated a comparison to automotive diagnosis..

see regulators and alternators go bad for "no reason" on cars frequently, the system on this bike isn't all that different

I agree and disagree. Yes, as Gunnar and I have bantered on the same side, we both illustrate, although some items are slightly different, the same basic mechanics and electronics to power a bike is relatively similar as a car. Really, if you want to get even more basic about it, remove the frame from each, and just put the components on the ground, you still have an engine, AC generator, battery, exhaust, sparking units, engine cooling system, and air intake.... everything else is cosmetic as far as im concerned. Where I disagree, components do not go bad for no reason... there is a reason. its just whether its in any interest or benifit to understand it, or how much effort is spent on determining root cause. I.e. a single 12g, twisted wire doesnt just blow... it built up too much resistance, and arc'd across, causing the individual wires to break. Root cause: The bundle was supposed to have 16 strands, however the machine that pulled the wire wasnt set up correctly, and it only pulled 14 wires.... too much resistance, too little capacity.

Ghost out.

Gooj job on the fix. Great work puting it in a pre-engineered location.

[85vf1000r]

Thanks Ghost! And I agree that there is always a reason for a component failure, but as you said, the question is whether it is worth investigating the reason or not. Hence the reason for me saying "no reason" in quotes ;)

I imagine my R/R started its downhill slide the first time the previous owner had an issue with the stator connections, then things just got worse as time went on, especially with the loose connection I found, then you get "the big bang" and a hole in the back of it!

Bike is running 100% better than it has since I bought it. Top end is CRAZY powerful compared to what it was...almost "scary" fast...and I LOVE IT!

Thanks again everyone!!

-Paul

[Tighe]

So did just end up randomly connecting the yellow wires? Is there any particular order to connecting them???

thanks

[85vf1000r]

Before I finalized the connections I tried all possible combinations of connections with the 3 yellow stator wires. With each combination I checked voltage output at idle and at higher RPM (unfortunately I didn't have a way to check amperage output). I found that all combinations yielded the same levels of output, so I just picked one and went with it. The charging system has been working fantastically since! I would say the overall condition of the entire electrical system is very good since I just went out and started the bike after it had sat for nearly 2 months. Cranked over and fired up just fine, despite my expectation of a dead battery!

-Paul