having some wierd bike issues

[tinkerinWstuff]

Hey guy, here's your bike in Illinios for $700

1986 HONDA VF500 F INTERCEPTOR (Decatur)

Not sure if that's feasible with your budget but that's almost parts bike price....

[JamieDaugherty]

Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff

I think this thread is starting to sound amazingly like the F2 rear wheel thread where Jamie wished everyone would butt-out and let him troubleshoot his own product....

Seems odd that Squirrel isn't being given the same courtesy....

So, by telling Matt to go search for an electrical problem, is that what he was doing?

I want Matt's bike to get back running correctly again.

[matt1986vf500f]

i've made up my mind, i'll send the carbs back to squirrel to have him check it out but i will be swapping the carbs over to the 84-85 VF500 carbs but i want these 86 carbs to be in perfect work order, i will try to forget about the crap that was said behind closed doors ( in this case PM's) squirrel fair enough?

[matt1986vf500f]

squirrel are you willing to take them back to work on them again?

[tinkerinWstuff]

Signs & Symptoms of Bad Spark Plug Wires | eHow.com

Engine Miss
An engine miss, which normally occurs as the result of erratic or incomplete engine combustion, is another common symptom of bad spark plug wires. Many times, bad spark plug wires cause the flow of electrical current to the engine spark plugs to become erratic, alternating between brief periods of normal flow and brief periods of abnormal, erratic flow. The end result of this are periods of erratic and incomplete engine combustion, which can manifest itself as an engine miss.

Engine Surging
A common symptom of a vehicle electrical problem is engine surging, a condition that happens when a vehicle experiences brief spurts of adequate electrical flow to its spark plugs, interspersed with brief periods where electrical flow is reduced or non-existent. Engine surging is a common symptom of bad spark plug wires, especially if the wires have cracks or breaks in their outside insulation, a condition that can create significant electrical resistance and lead to abnormal or completely stopped electrical flow to a vehicle's spark plugs.

I'm pretty sure my problem is ignition. Mine runs too well for about 10 or 15 minutes and then starts surging. Feels like a cylinder kicks in and drops out. I've had my carbs apart 3 times and I know there is nothing plugged so at this point I'm going with either a heat saturated ignition coil or plug wires.

[DKC'sVFR]

Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff

I think this thread is starting to sound amazingly like the F2 rear wheel thread where Jamie wished everyone would butt-out and let him troubleshoot his own product....

Seems odd that Squirrel isn't being given the same courtesy....



Because the carbs are the most complicated and difficult system to troubleshoot. That's the point, for example, it's way easier to swap a plug wire than yank a carb set. It takes 1 minute but sending the carbs back probably costs a person a week.

I've been busy and I have come down with the flu, so I missed the last 4 or 5 days of exchange on this thread. First thing I want to point out is that I never got on line with any congratulations or pats on the back. You may think that was because the only thing I cared about was the gas mileage issue. But you would be wrong. The real reason I did not jump on the congratulation bandwagon was because I thought that doing mechanical repairs by email and US parcel post for a "weird bike issue" was fraught with peril in the first place.

I was not in at the beginning of this thread. But it appeared to me, coming in when I did that there was a lot of pressure to get on with rebuilding the carburetors in the beginning and not much interest placed on troubleshooting the electrical system or the ignition system. The need to do something, anything, seemed to push things forward and the main focus was "Carb problems". The answer was to shotgun the carbs with a complete rebuild. I have reread the thread from the beginning. And there is an automatic jump into fuel related problems from the beginning.

So, I think TinkerinWstuff has been cool headed about the situation while the central players have let emotion take over. I believe that Squirrelman did a superior job of rebuilding Matt’s carburetors. He has the most to lose if he doesn’t do a superior job in the way of loss of reputation. So I tend to trust that the carb’s were done right. The apparent automatic decision that the problem had to be fuel related seems very much like a big stone left unturned and left there to be tripped over. I also feel that there is a sort of unwritten contract in this sort of “help” by email that requires that the receiver of help must do 'due diligence'.

What do I mean by “due diligence”. I mean the person receiving the help has to give the person who provided the help the benefit of the doubt. If the provider asks for electrical checks than they need to be provided.

There may be another issue that is not being discussed in the open. That is the exchange of money. I know nothing about any sort of exchange, but my understanding would be that any exchange should take place after the fact of a repair. I want to point out that I did not send any congratulations prior to hearing that Matt was completely satisfied after a lot of riding and after checking his mileage. But the real issue is in the idea that the answers given here are supposed to be for free. So sending carburetors through the mail seems like it breaks the rules. While Squirrelman may have been wrong in soliciting for the work, I believe that Matt shares in the responsibility for agreeing to allow someone other than himself to do the work. The advice given on this site is to help those who ask for help to do the job themselves, and thereby learn from taking matters into their own hands.

The second issue here is in the assessment of the problem in the first place. Before I even chimed in about the balance springs issue on the third page of the thread at least 10 different people had gone for the fuel option without any nod to the electrical option. So some blame has to be spread around there as well.

I agree with TinkerinWstuff. Squirrelman deserves a chance to vindicate his carb rebuild job as not being the cause of Matts disappointment. Matt needs to give Squirrelman his due and take on partial responsibility. There is no one of us with the ability to see into the future and to thereby predict an absolutely correct answer to every question. Nor is is proper to expect the same. The rest of us need to back off or help Matt to satisfy the search for an electrical origin of the problem to Squirrelman’s satisfaction.

DKC

[matt1986vf500f]

ok you guys are so hung up on plug wires fine i have some accel 8mm wire out in the shop i'll install it and we will see.. squirrel i havent heard a word from you is that a no your not going to work on them again? need to know soming man gotta get this shit going

[matt1986vf500f]

Originally Posted by DKC'sVFR

I've been busy and I have come down with the flu, so I missed the last 4 or 5 days of exchange on this thread. First thing I want to point out is that I never got on line with any congratulations or pats on the back. You may think that was because the only thing I cared about was the gas mileage issue. But you would be wrong. The real reason I did not jump on the congratulation bandwagon was because I thought that doing mechanical repairs by email and US parcel post for a "weird bike issue" was fraught with peril in the first place.

I was not in at the beginning of this thread. But it appeared to me, coming in when I did that there was a lot of pressure to get on with rebuilding the carburetors in the beginning and not much interest placed on troubleshooting the electrical system or the ignition system. The need to do something, anything, seemed to push things forward and the main focus was "Carb problems". The answer was to shotgun the carbs with a complete rebuild. I have reread the thread from the beginning. And there is an automatic jump into fuel related problems from the beginning.

So, I think TinkerinWstuff has been cool headed about the situation while the central players have let emotion take over. I believe that Squirrelman did a superior job of rebuilding Matt’s carburetors. He has the most to lose if he doesn’t do a superior job in the way of loss of reputation. So I tend to trust that the carb’s were done right. The apparent automatic decision that the problem had to be fuel related seems very much like a big stone left unturned and left there to be tripped over. I also feel that there is a sort of unwritten contract in this sort of “help” by email that requires that the receiver of help must do 'due diligence'.

What do I mean by “due diligence”. I mean the person receiving the help has to give the person who provided the help the benefit of the doubt. If the provider asks for electrical checks than they need to be provided.

There may be another issue that is not being discussed in the open. That is the exchange of money. I know nothing about any sort of exchange, but my understanding would be that any exchange should take place after the fact of a repair. I want to point out that I did not send any congratulations prior to hearing that Matt was completely satisfied after a lot of riding and after checking his mileage. But the real issue is in the idea that the answers given here are supposed to be for free. So sending carburetors through the mail seems like it breaks the rules. While Squirrelman may have been wrong in soliciting for the work, I believe that Matt shares in the responsibility for agreeing to allow someone other than himself to do the work. The advice given on this site is to help those who ask for help to do the job themselves, and thereby learn from taking matters into their own hands.

The second issue here is in the assessment of the problem in the first place. Before I even chimed in about the balance springs issue on the third page of the thread at least 10 different people had gone for the fuel option without any nod to the electrical option. So some blame has to be spread around there as well.

I agree with TinkerinWstuff. Squirrelman deserves a chance to vindicate his carb rebuild job as not being the cause of Matts disappointment. Matt needs to give Squirrelman his due and take on partial responsibility. There is no one of us with the ability to see into the future and to thereby predict an absolutely correct answer to every question. Nor is is proper to expect the same. The rest of us need to back off or help Matt to satisfy the search for an electrical origin of the problem to Squirrelman’s satisfaction.

DKC

DKC, i agree with some of what you wrote i am willing to give squirrel man another chance to fix this he's hurting himself right now, and again! i've check the electrical and its all fine everybody is hung up on the damn electrical system it check out good, now where back to the carbs

[NorcalBoy]

wow this is ugly. if I was you squirrel, I would send matt his money back and wash my hands of the whole mess. This is what happens to old, wore out, junk. it isn't worth the effort, your reputation, or being slandered in public. do yourself a favor, send him his money back, it isn't worth it.

[DKC'sVFR]

Personally I would have gone to the ignition system first. But thatwas water under the bridge many weeks ago. You are going to have to satisfy Squirrelman that you have a sufficient electrical/ignition system to cause his warrantee to kick in. His argument is that he has rebuilt so many carburetors that he is certain that his work was done properly. So he is putting the blame on you and the fault(s) on the bike. These "weird issues" have a way of making clowns of the smartest and most circumspect mechanics. But the sign of a great mechanic is that they can't stand not to know why or how. They can't sleep at night for thinking and trying to understand what went wrong? That bit of information that they are lacking drives them nuts. But enough of my . What does Squirrelman want you to do to make sure that its not a fault in the bike? . This is not what I want you to do or any group out here in the 'World' with any particular agenda. If I have an agenda its to find out what the real cause of the "surge" is. Then I can look there if it ever happens to me or to someone whose bike I am helping to fix.

I commend you,Matt, for showing some flexibility. Now we want to hear the position of the other side of the argument and what if any sort of compromise might be forthcoming from Squirrel.

[matt1986vf500f]

Originally Posted by NorcalBoy

wow this is ugly. if I was you squirrel, I would send matt his money back and wash my hands of the whole mess. This is what happens to old, wore out, junk. it isn't worth the effort, your reputation, or being slandered in public. do yourself a favor, send him his money back, it isn't worth it.

NCB i've always though alot about you i like the way you speak your mind and dont beat around the bush but dude slaming other peoples bikes whats the deal with that? i'm sure you would like it one bit if i did the same..

[matt1986vf500f]

with squirrel silence i take it he's doesnt want to deal with this problem so squirrel next time you come to look at this thread i dont want my money back you keep..i paid for a service you did it and i had a few problems i'll get the bike back running again i'm not worried about it i just figured we could be adults and handle this. good luck to you sir and i wish you the best!

[tinkerinWstuff]

I'm curious, what method/process did you use to figure out what cylinder was loading up?

[NorcalBoy]

Originally Posted by matt1986vf500f

NCB i've always though alot about you i like the way you speak your mind and dont beat around the bush but dude slaming other peoples bikes whats the deal with that? i'm sure you would like it one bit if i did the same..

I stand by what I said, feel free to slam my bike all you want. it won't hurt my feelings one bit.

The truth of the matter is that you did not do your homework, you thought you knew what was causing your problem, so you sent him your rust filled, wore out, junk carbs, having already come to the conclusion that the carbs were the problem...or at least Mr. Daugherty did, anyway. Well, you got the carbs back and it didn't fix your problem...so all of a sudden you and your pal Mr. Daugherty decide that it's S-mans fault. The way you and Mr. Daugherty have handled it from there is questionable. Just because he rebuilt your carbs doesn't mean that he has any assumed ownership of your initial problems to begin with, although it would seem that you and Mr. Daugherty would like to somehow link the two things together.

I had this discussion with Squirrelman many moons ago, when he decided to offer carb services to this forum, and told him that this very thing was going to happen. Guess what, it has. Completely predictable. If it was me, which it never would be, until I knew exactly what is causing the problem, I'd shut the hell up until I knew what the hell I was talking about. As for the acting like adults comment in your last post....it's a little past that point in my opinion.

[matt1986vf500f]

Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff

I'm curious, what method/process did you use to figure out what cylinder was loading up?

ha..funny you should ask the exhaust note! then i rode it tested check and found the the front left cylinder was gettign loaded up on fuel when maintaning a throttle. funny huh

[matt1986vf500f]

Originally Posted by NorcalBoy

I stand by what I said, feel free to slam my bike all you want. it won't hurt my feelings one bit.

The truth of the matter is that you did not do your homework, you thought you knew what was causing your problem, so you sent him your rust filled, wore out, junk carbs, having already come to the conclusion that the carbs were the problem...or at least Mr. Daugherty did, anyway. Well, you got the carbs back and it didn't fix your problem...so all of a sudden you and your pal Mr. Daugherty decide that it's S-mans fault. The way you and Mr. Daugherty have handled it from there is questionable. Just because he rebuilt your carbs doesn't mean that he has any assumed ownership of your initial problems to begin with, although it would seem that you and Mr. Daugherty would like to somehow link the two things together.

I had this discussion with Squirrelman many moons ago, when he decided to offer carb services to this forum, and told him that this very thing was going to happen. Guess what, it has. Completely predictable. If it was me, which it never would be, until I knew exactly what is causing the problem, I'd shut the hell up until I knew what the hell I was talking about. As for the acting like adults comment in your last post....it's a little past that point in my opinion.

ha if you only knew i'll let you think whatever man i can see this is just going to turn into a bitch fest, by the way homework has been done long time ago

[tinkerinWstuff]

Originally Posted by matt1986vf500f

ha..funny you should ask the exhaust note! then i rode it tested check and found the the front left cylinder was gettign loaded up on fuel when maintaning a throttle. funny huh

I'm still not following you. You told me what you found, not the method used to find it. Did you measure exhaust temperature on each header pipe? Did this fuel that was loading up work its way into the exhaust and cause a backfire? Unburned fuel has to go somewhere and would light in a hot collection pipe wouldn't it?

I suspect the cylinder I'm having trouble with is #1 but I've been unable to confirm it.

[matt1986vf500f]

Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff

I'm still not following you. You told me what you found, not the method used to find it. Did you measure exhaust temperature on each header pipe? Did this fuel that was loading up work its way into the exhaust and cause a backfire? Unburned fuel has to go somewhere and would light in a hot collection pipe wouldn't it?

I suspect the cylinder I'm having trouble with is #1 but I've been unable to confirm it.

sorry your right i didnt i first check each header pipe for temp, then checked the plugs tested for weak spark.

[NorcalBoy]

Originally Posted by matt1986vf500f

ha if you only knew i'll let you think whatever man i can see this is just going to turn into a bitch fest, by the way homework has been done long time ago

No bitchfest, matt. I said my piece and that's all the time i'm willing to devote to this ridiculous situation. I wish you future success with your troubleshooting.

[tinkerinWstuff]

So am I to understand that with the bike idling, you have a cold header pipe on the #2 cylinder?

At idle, the cylinder isn't firing at all, you shut the bike off and find a wet plug?

And after that, no adjustment of the pilot screw at idle gets the cylinder firing?

At what throttle position/rpm does the cylinder come back online?

[matt1986vf500f]

Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff

So am I to understand that with the bike idling, you have a cold header pipe on the #2 cylinder?

At idle, the cylinder isn't firing at all, you shut the bike off and find a wet plug?

And after that, no adjustment of the pilot screw at idle gets the cylinder firing?

At what throttle position/rpm does the cylinder come back online?

YES,YES,NO & WOT

[tinkerinWstuff]

Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff

So am I to understand that with the bike idling, you have a cold header pipe on the #2 cylinder?

At idle, the cylinder isn't firing at all, you shut the bike off and find a wet plug?

And after that, no adjustment of the pilot screw at idle gets the cylinder firing?

At what throttle position/rpm does the cylinder come back online?

Originally Posted by matt1986vf500f

YES,YES,NO & WOT

So based on these tests and what you found, you are convinced that the idle circuit (pilot jet), low speed jet (idle to about 1/4 throttle), and any combination of the main and needle jet (1/4 to 3/4 throttle) are flooding out the cylinder? The only circuit of the one carb working properly is the main jet?

Were you able to run the bike without the fuel tank and air box to see if the vacuum slider behaves like the other three cylinders?

[matt1986vf500f]

Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff

So based on these tests and what you found, you are convinced that the idle circuit (pilot jet), low speed jet (idle to about 1/4 throttle), and any combination of the main and needle jet (1/4 to 3/4 throttle) are flooding out the cylinder? The only circuit of the one carb working properly is the main jet?

Were you able to run the bike without the fuel tank and air box to see if the vacuum slider behaves like the other three cylinders?

no i havent been able to run the bike with out a tank my time has gotten so limited with having a baby now that i had to really push the wife to let me have some time to play with the bike, i would really like to do that but it would take me another week or so to get the time to do it, oh by the way i've put 107 miles on this tank of fuel and she has less then half gallon left

[tinkerinWstuff]

the wife and I are planning and starting the family after the new year so I'm enjoying my freedom while I have it!

If I get a chance, I'll get a photo of the fuel can I rigged up for running without the tank and airbox. It's a little hoaky but it works. Unfortunately, new fuel cans don't have the small vent at the back of the can that used to work great for connecting fuel lines.

[DKC'sVFR]

Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff

So based on these tests and what you found, you are convinced that the idle circuit (pilot jet), low speed jet (idle to about 1/4 throttle), and any combination of the main and needle jet (1/4 to 3/4 throttle) are flooding out the cylinder? The only circuit of the one carb working properly is the main jet?

Were you able to run the bike without the fuel tank and air box to see if the vacuum slider behaves like the other three cylinders?

Great job tinkerinWstuff, of tip toeing around the . Try to remember that "no good deed goes unpunished", so mind where you step or what you are stepping in. There is another thread that might be useful to refer to going on right next door to the "wierd stuff" thread. Its the thread about another Vf 500f with a problem that keeps it from reving up by 1983Bob.

Matt, I am sorry that Squirrel has chosen to remain silent. He'll let TinkerinWstuff work out the problem and then when you two finally figure out if there is a problem with the electrical/ignition system I suppose he'll be able to say "I told you so". I, however, will have dropped some of my respect for him. I hope you will follow through regarding what TinkerinWstuff asks you to try out. I know you have other responsibilities to deal with besides your cycle. I know that wives with little babies to deal with have (almost) no tolerance for motorcycle shenanigans I think this problem has taken so much time thus far that to hang on for another few months is not that big a deal. I'll stick it out and try to help if I can offer more than what Tinkerin is doing.

As for the fact that you got 107 miles out of the 1st tank of fuel is more an indication of your problems than an indication of your mileage. Hold off on mileage until you get the cycle debugged. Hang in there. I hope you have a VOM, ammeter and timing light. I hope you can get ahold of known good CDI units if you pass all the electrical/ignition tests. Since you have a 1986 model
you don't have a fuel pump system. I suppose that if you follow the test procedure for checking fuel volume on the 84-85 model Vf 500f models, that you can assume you are not suffering fuel starvation. I think you need to consider that if you change to the early carburetors that they might require you install a fuel pump system. So I'd stick it out with the Keitin 32's until you exhaust all tests.

nuff said

DKC

[squirrelman]

PM sent.

I needed to walk away from this issue for a couple days while the smoke and fire died down a little.

When you're done bashin' send me the carbs, now i know exactly where to look for the problem.

[matt1986vf500f]

Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff

the wife and I are planning and starting the family after the new year so I'm enjoying my freedom while I have it!

If I get a chance, I'll get a photo of the fuel can I rigged up for running without the tank and airbox. It's a little hoaky but it works. Unfortunately, new fuel cans don't have the small vent at the back of the can that used to work great for connecting fuel lines.

at first i was like man what did i get my self into but they are 7 weeks old and man i'm loving every minute of it!

[squirrelman]

I usually try to reuse as many parts as possible since money is always an issue, but in this case, Matt, i'd rather not.

So please send along with your carbs 4 new needle and seat sets, 4 new slow jets, 4 new float bowl gaskets, and also consider sending me 4 new vacuum slides with brand new diaphrams to replace your 23 year old components. And floats, how about new floats too??

I'm NOT saying that you actually need any of these parts now to make your bike run better, but i'm trying to make you see what a favor i was doing you by NOT insisting these parts be replaced initially.

Whatever bits are not replaced means that you must be willing to accept a risk of their future failure.

[matt1986vf500f]

Originally Posted by squirrelman

I usually try to reuse as many parts as possible since money is always an issue, but in this case, Matt, i'd rather not.

So please send along with your carbs 4 new needle and seat sets, 4 new slow jets, 4 new float bowl gaskets, and also consider sending me 4 new vacuum slides with brand new diaphrams to replace your 23 year old components.

some of that will be hard to get the slide's for one i dont know of any one that still sell them, the needles are almost brand new they came with the jet kit do you think they need replacing? i think bikebandit still sells the float bowl gaskets, the slow jet i think bikebandit still sells aswell let me dig alittle deeper into this i'll let you know what i find.

[JamieDaugherty]

It's about time for S-man to come clean with the real story. He's sent several PM's to me and Matt (that's why I got involved in the first place). There is a WHOLE BUNCH of info that's not been stated in this thread. I'll let S-man post that himself, which I think he should. It's unfair to accuse me a "smearing" or "slamming" when I'm not stating anything that isn't true. It just seems that way because S-man appears to have gotten some amnesia about it.

Again, I'll let him speak for himself. As you can tell, I don't take too kindly to being dragged into something then pointed a finger at.