Low tech vs high tech

[jasonsmith]

Originally Posted by Lgn001

Hey, that's six generations to develop highly complex problems! None of those low-level sissy problems for us, pal!

Originally Posted by squirrelman

the more i read on this site about FI sensors, fuel maps, thermostats, wiring issues, etc, the HAPPIER I am with my low-tech '97 carbed 750 VFR or my '86 700s !!!!!

Reliability and ease of maintenance seem to have both drastically declined with the years!!

from here

So who really thinks low tech is "better" than high tech.

I agree, the days of the old were simpler... but were they really. Some would argue that things are much more simpler now. Hard to believe with computers running the show. ECU, ICM whatever CU's. I hated carbs, and still do. They were a pain the rear. I guess the computers have taken them over. Now instead of fiddling with this and that and regular cleaning and so on you just have to replace an insanely expensive part. Seems pretty simple to me. I must admit though, if I had all the diagnostic computers and so on I would feel more comfortable and less at the mercy of those who do. I have managed to get a pgm or two that would plug into a computer for a car, but even the end result would be replacing a sensor.

It's all just moved from "repair" to "replace" now thats all.

[squirrelman]

it's a generational thing, too: younger folks think computer-controlled everything is better, while older, more seasoned (geezer) riders might rather use a screwdriver to fix a problem than a new data map and info downloads....

Riders who started with FI bikes are computer guys, while those who started with carbs and know how to repair them are older......

IMO, carbs are dirt-simple and do the job, can be repaired without computer codes or expensive sensors and are easier to troubleshoot with fewer variables.

Seems like the number of possible component failures on FI is FAR greater than carbs.

Thermostat: i can change it on an '86 after loosening 8 fasteners in under 10 minutes. Also, my wires are fatter than yours!

[Lgn001]

The beauty of low tech is that it is relatively easy to diagnose and fix, which puts it in the realm of most gearhead types. It was/is possible to fix a problem by the side of the road and continue the trip. The downside is frequent maintenance if you want maximum performance (and that would include easier starting, for those of us from the pre-electric start days). Earlier ignition systems tend to be on the weak side, so you really had to stay after them to keep things reliable.

The beauty of high tech is the absolutely astonishing and reliable power output from the modern motorcycle engine. FI and microprocessor control of fuel mapping and ignition, along with metal technology and lubricant advancement, have really transformed the modern motorcycle. And modern suspension and tires are incredibly good. The downside is when things stop working correctly. For most of us, even those who have been wrenching on things for a long time and are accustomed to diagnosing some fairly subtle problems, it can be frustrating and expensive.

I guess my biggest gripe/concern is knowing that there is the possibility of having to let a shop do the work, or spend a lot of money on tools. I have seldom been satisfied when I have trusted a shop, and it has always been expensive. It really frosts me when I go to work on something after a shop has had there fingers on it, and find stripped or missing fasteners, missing lockwashers, missing clamps or strain reliefs, etc.

I tend to get long-winded; I apologize for that. To summarize, the modern bike, when everything is working right, is much better than the older bikes. For me, older bikes are easier to repair because, as you have both pointed out, that's what I am more familiar with. Oh, one other thing: older bikes are easier because you can actually get to things to work on them.

[Jimtt]

Well fuel injection systems and their associated computers and sensors do add complexity and ‘dialing’ in fuel mapping is no easy task especially if you are starting from scratch. It is impossible to out do the factories basic set ups for drivability even if you can get more power. I do a lot of work on Audi cars and fuel systems and have VAG-Com computer diagnostics which make working on the cars fairly easy. It is also easy to chip tune a turbo charged Audi and regulate boost. But all my Motorcycle experience is with carburetors and all the bikes I own have carbs even the newest (a 99 VTR1000). I understand carburetors but it has taken many years to really learn them. I think all mechanical systems have complexities which can lead to advantages or disadvantages. One reason I am a Honda owner is their reliable and through engineering. I am not a Honda car fan so much but their bikes are the best in my opinion. The new VFRs are complex with V-Tech and fuel injection and since I have not ridden one I can’t make any objective judgments. I have a 94 VFR which as you know has carburetors, cast Iron cylinder liners ( 4<SUP>th</SUP> generation on do not) and no V-tech and no linked brakes. The only thing that my VFR really needs is more power and while it is in no way underpowered it begs the question ‘why is there no VFR1100’. I really have to believe that Honda has a big bore VFR in development and actually thought we would see it in 2008. There is no question that it will be fuel injected but I would like to see gear driven cams return and V-tech dropped. But I will say the new VFRs are beautiful bikes, the red white and blue model being the best looking.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

[Action]

I think Squirrelman is right on the idea that your more comfortable working on what your used to . I grew up working on cars with carbs and less than half a dozen wires under the hood so now if its anything more than routine stuff I'll take the cage to the dealer. On the other hand I got into motorcycles about 5 years ago and really like the fuel injected bikes. I've replaced the tstat on mine and it was a pain but like anything else you learn. I helped a friend do his 2 weeks ago and we had it done in a couple of hours. One advantage you see here in ABQ (about 5600' above sea level) is that carbed bikes tend to run badly when we go up in the mountains (some up to 10K'). I also like the way I fire mine up and just let it idle for a few while I get my gear on. No messing with chokes or revving it just to keep it running. I'll take the more complex design and modern improvements over simpler and possibly easier to maintain.

Action

[Lgn001]

After looking at the "Recent Posts", something else did occur to me; there never used to be "recall letters", and I really don't remember anything catastrophic coming about because of bad wiring or other engineering oversights (on Japanese bikes, anyway; English bikes/cars don't count...). Anybody remember differently?

[jasonsmith]

The other issue.. unless you have all the diagnostic equip and you know what the actual problem is, your kinda left at the mercy of whoever does. Kinda like taking your car in for an electrical glitch... scary.

[two4one]

I personally think low-tech is better in every walk of life and I work in the computer field! The more I work in this field, the more I think all this tech and other BS is just too much and it doesn't add any value to your life or the way we live it. More ways to communicate yet less actual communication. More information yet less knowledge.

That being said, I'll share a story that quite honestly doesn't shine a good light on me. Back in late September, I departed for a 10-day tour through West Virginia, Virginia, TN and all over the southeast. I made a stop at a gas station in Maryland where I struck up a conversation with a guy on a Harley. While we're chatting, another guy pulls in on an OLD Harley. I mean old! The kind you see in museums old. If there is a Harley I like it's the old school ones. Anyway, we end up talking to him about his bike, etc. Eventually, the rider says something like "I've been all over the place on this old bike". He told stories of the trips he's taken and the miles he's put on. He then makes a comment: "I'd sooner take this old thing on a trip before I'd take a new bike, at least I can fix this" (making the comparison and pointing to my VFR). Somewhat offended, I replied with "It's a Honda, it'll never break down". He replies with, "Don't be so sure".

Eventually we part ways. Less than two hours down the road, I developed the infamous wiring harness issue which left me stranded and completely ruined my trip. I re-learned a valuable lesson that day. Just because it's new or "more" doesn't mean it's better or bulletproof.

[Vlad Impaler]

I'm a fan of the "simpler is better" clan.
I disagree that carbs need attention and cleaning. All they need is some basic care, and that's only if they are not in regular use. FI bikes need simiar care! I really think the only downside of carbs is the complexity of tuning, if you need to fiddle. I would argue for everyday riding you don't need to fiddle, and I have lived at sea level to over 5000ft above, taking rides regularly over 7000ft. Could it be better? Sure. Does it overwhelm the fun factor? Certainly not. All that said, I'd take a 5th gen upgrade, but would be reluctant for a 6th unless my bank account were fatter.
Would I go to the point of saying I long for ignition points? NO! But there is beauty in having under $500 in tools and being able to intuitively narrow the field of parts causing your problem and fix it. All that and go down the road as reliable as any bike produced in the last couple years.
Face it, the root of much of the complexity in any auto/bike today is driven by environmental restraints. To eek more power out of an environmentally compliant motorcycle more electronic gadgetry has to be employed. I'm not opposed to the environmental push, just don't like what comes with the package.
If you can do the same job without less complexity, why wouldn't you? Screw "my bike is more advanced than yours" bragging rights and heavy maintenance bills.
I'll take basic techology that people with basic mechanical and electrical smarts can understand, and fix them with a tool set that costs less than one ECU.

Anyone for revolutionary vs. evolutionary design that will satisfy the tree huggers, power junkies, and wrench turners alike? I say bring it!

[derstuka]

I am kinda half and half....I love new gadgets, but sometimes when things (like new car engines) get so complex with all of the latest electronics you have no clue how to work on them. The old FZR1000 was great to work on. Straightforward, simplistic, less things to go wrong, just a joy to work on compared to some newer vehicles.

Like this new fly-by-wire system still kinda gives me the willies. It is cool technology, but, I just feel more reassured with a cable connecting my wrist to the FI.

[mello dude]

I'm an engineer geek foole - so low tech or high tech? There doesnt seem to be an either/or line to me. What is the problem or design? Sometimes "high tech" seems to be over-kill. Look at linked brakes. Work well? Yes. Nessessary? No. How about carburation? If carbs are tuned perfectly, not much can beat them. "low tech" But can you tune on the fly? No. Thus going "high tech" FI allows us the neat stuff like the Power Commander. Running rich? Hook up the computer, tweek, tweek and your done. On carbs you wouldnt have the body work off yet.

Low tech or High tech? I guess it depends on whats appropriate and what you are after.

MD

[KrautBurner]

it depends,

I'd rather work on a vehicle (car or bike) that's less "tech"

but I'd rather own/drive/ride something that I don't have to work on ;)


it's hard to beat a car that from the factory came with 400hp, runs high 12 sec quarter mile, and still gets about 30mpg
that isn't gonna happen with a carb'd "low tech" car
now, with a little work,
that car has over 500rwhp and 600rwtq runs mid 11's (I can out 60' most litre bikes)
and still gets almost 25mpg

[Bubba Zanetti]

My feelings are similar to DerStuka's.

Ive helped friends with low tech bikes and they are normally easy to work on...then I've been around the high tech LOL! Not as easy per se.

Sometimes I think technology hits a point of complexity just to be complex. Two4One's post hits the nail on the head.

I rode a fellow ridercoaches BMW one day. Some sport touring model and it had so many gadgets that I thought damn, if you have an issue its going to be a PIA to deal with! Still a nice bike, but too much for me.

The whole traction control technology, if and when it gets to our level, scares the hell out of me. We get used to it, just like ABS in our cars, then when you have a failure...AAAAAA! Or something like that LOL!

I know failures would probably be rare, but who wants to be that person?

BZ

[Lgn001]

Originally Posted by Bubba Zanetti

The whole traction control technology, if and when it gets to our level, scares the hell out of me. We get used to it, just like ABS in our cars, then when you have a failure...AAAAAA! Or something like that LOL!

I know failures would probably be rare, but who wants to be that person?

BZ

Good point! I avoided getting ABS on the VFR for two reasons:

1. I plan on keeping my other bikes, which are non-ABS. ABS has its merits, but in a panic situation, I could see myself reacting out of habit and nailing the brakes on a non-ABS bike.

2. One more layer of complexity, one more thing to go wrong.

I read, years ago, the GM was considering steering-by-wire, to eliminate the steering column. That never seemed like a good idea to me....

[derstuka]

Originally Posted by Lgn001

I read, years ago, the GM was considering steering-by-wire, to eliminate the steering column. That never seemed like a good idea to me....

Yeah, imagine the computer crashing(having some glitch) and you have no steering! Yikes! At least if the car dies with a rack and pinion you can still steer.

[Rwortman]

I am 50 years old and have been working on my own cars and bikes my whole life. Old tech is easier to work on sometimes but always seemed to require more working on. FI and ECU's have completely revolutionized cars to the point that no one would want to drive a carbureted car and put up with the throttle response and cold running issues they have any more. I suspect a few years down the road we will feel the same about bike engines. I certainly enjoy being able to just push the button and ride on my VFR. It has a few funny FI glitches that are mild in nature and not really troubling. The first few generations of cars had some issues as well but they are all ironed out now. Carbureted bike can run well if they don't have to meet emissions spec's but stock for stock in the emissions era FI runs way better. True you can rejet your carb's (and I have) but if they start emissions testing for two wheelers you will no longer have that option and you will learn to love your computer controlled, fuel injected motorcycle.

[grinder]

In general principal I like low tech but... I would rather have my VFR than any of the many low tech bikes I have owned in the past. One had a carb slide stick at full throttle and nearly killed me before I could flick the kill switch. Another needed a full tune with new plugs every week. I could completely rebuild the engine in three hours but I had to do it every couple of months. When we talk about low tech with nostalgia I think we tend to forget most of the bad stuff that went with it. Having said that there are a bunch of old bikes I would like just because I can tinker with them.