Shinko Tires - Test/Review

[Rat]

OK, this brand has been somewhat controversial, so I decided to try them just to see...

The truth is that in recent years I've been "economically challenged" (read: mostly broke).
I needed new tires, and since my current bike (1994 VFR750) takes a 170 rear on a 5" rim, RTO's (180 race take-offs) were essentially not an option.

What's the least expensive decent tire I can get?
I decided the retreads (forget the name) were out of the question; I wanted to at least have the security of tires manufactured as cohesive units.

A bit of research over the last few months (anticipating the need for replacements) revealed a brand I had not previously heard of, the Shinkos.
Rumor has it that Shinko is a major/huge Korean industrial manufacturer, that purchased the technology, molds, rubber compound chemistry, etc. from Yokohama when they ceased production of motorcycle tires.
*I have not been able to substantiate this*.
Yokohama has long been a major player in the tire game, including various forms of motor racing.

The Shinko's price was significantly less than the next-best-thing; they'll have to do.
Besides, I'm a curious type, and consider myself objective, pragmatic and realistic.
I'm not especially brand loyal for bikes or anything else - I simply demand function. I want things that work.

A little history:
I've been riding street/sportbikes at a very high level for more than 25 years and around 1/2 million miles.
Almost every bit of it has been very hard & fast, in some very demanding situations, including Autobahns, Alps, Nurburgring, Spa and other racetracks.
I've likely ridden more miles 2-up, and more miles in rain than most riders have ever ridden all together.
Even 2-up and in rain I usually ride as hard as I can get away with.
I don't have a "Mellow" setting...

I ridden many Dunlop models, from K91's, K291's, K391's, etc. up to modern Qualifiers, D207's (various types) etc.
I've mostly used (& absolutely prefer) Metzelers, with extensive experience on ME77's, ME33, ME99, ME88 and newer models including Rennsports.
On my R1 (no longer own) I used primarily Pirellis (manufactured alongside sporty Metzelers nowadays), including Diablos, Diablo Corsas and SuperCorsas.
I've also had a few Michelins and Continentals in the mix, as well as any number of OEM fitments.
Bottom line - I've used everything from cheapo rim protectors, average/commuters, serious Touring tires, and many sport/supersport tires including DOT race rubber.
I've been known to slide both ends, usually intentionally, and leave blackies at will - I can push most tires as hard as they'll take.

It is with all of this in mind that I decided to take on the Shinkos.
I've got a good background of experience and knowledge for comparison.

Most importantly, I've reached an age and mindset that I'm no longer as concerned with tiny differences and perceived advantages - I just effing ride the damn thing as hard as the bike and tires will take.
I don't make excuses, and I'm somewhat amused by all the concern about "needing" the stickiest tires available, when most riders can't use the grip they have, and couldn't tell the difference anyway.
I've lately been riding my 14 year old $300- rat-bike, on Metzeler Z6 RoadTecs, alongside kids half my age on R6's with racing tires, and scraping hardware and boots doing it!

So, back to the Shinkos.
I had wanted to get the 009 Raven sport-touring model, Shinko's hardest compound/longest wearing, but when it came time (& my strained budget allowed...), I needed tires NOW.
My local FBS (friendly bike shop) had the 006 Podiums (sport tire) the next day, and I couldn't wait any longer.
They were about $200 altogether, mounted & balanced (wheels off the bike).
Link to info: http://www.shinkotireusa.com/product...php?category=1

Initial Impressions:
For break-in, I frankly wasn't all that cautious.
I'm not sure why, perhaps due to the bike's forgiving nature (although not as communicative as a real sportbike) I just didn't feel like tip-toeing.
I set the front pressure at 31, rear as 33; a little low (I usually run 33/36) to better ensure some heat build-up to speed up the process.

I rode a total of 180 miles on a 70ish degree day, almost entirely twisties.
The first 8 miles were surface streets at 40mph, and a slab section at about 65.
A 5 minute stop to fuel up (I'm always thinking about heating/cooling cycles), and immediately into some tight, slowish twisties (Skyline).
Fairly gentle on the tighter bits and the tires were fine.
After about 7 miles of twisties (15 miles total) I started to pick up the pace - cornering deeper (lean angle) but still gentle on the throttle.
At about this point I experienced a couple of minor slides; 1 each from the front and the rear.
To be fair, I was probably pushing a little harder than advisable on brand new tires with only 15 miles.
I noted an interesting characteristic to the slides - smooth, predictable and very easily recovered. Not the least bit sudden.
I've long admired Metzelers for their recoverability when just over the limit, the Shinkos seemed very comparable, although this was at a much lower speed/aggression level due to the newness.

As the day went on I steadily picked up the pace. (Apiary to 47, then 202 towards Astoria).

I later noted that the front end was extremely stable; maybe too stable...
Rock solid in a straight line, completely unaffected by whatever convolutions the road surface threw at them.

They delivered decent feedback; a little wooden compared to SS tires (not unexpectedly), but not quite as numb as the (excellent) Metz Roadtecs.
Feedback was probably on par with any other good "Sport" tire.

It did seem however, that the front tire might be heavy.
I got the sense that a big part of the rock solid stability came from increased gyro-effect from extra weight.
I'd be curious to get an actual weight comparison to other comparable front tires out there.
Turn-in/turn initiation was light and smooth, with deeper turns ramping up very nicely - they rolled in very predictably.
However, in quick left/right transitions, the front didn't want to snap from side to side as quickly as I intended.
I made a riding adjustment to anticipate this and give a solid countersteer to all turns, especially slalom stuff.
They just need a firm hand when ridden aggressively.

A couple of relevant thoughts: I didn't measure it, but by my calibrated eyeballs, the rear tire appears noticeably wider than the Metz Z6 that had just come off.
This alone will cause slower steering.
I had also made a couple of significant changes to the bike's geometry.
I had previously been riding with the Gen-Mar handlebar risers, which raise the bars 3/4'' (about 20mm), however this is accomplished by raising the the fork stanchions in the triple-clamps by the same amount.
I've long been a fan of raising fork tubes to quicken steering, but this is substantial for this bike, in fact a little too much.
So I removed the risers at the same time as the tire change, but decided to leave the stanchions raised about 3mm, instead of perfectly flush as stock - a slight increase.
Effectively lowering the fork tubes compared to what I was used to actually make the steering angle (rake) shallower and would tend to slow the steering.
That, and the lower tire pressure both may have contributed to the front end feeling a little too stable for my tastes.
To be honest, I'm probably a bit more discerning than most riders; most people probably wouldn't even notice it.

However, I've decided to raise the fork tubes back to a total of 10mm showing, in order to split the difference (coincidentally, the exact amount that worked best on the R1).
In the interest of testing, I'm not going to alter the tire pressures or suspension settings for now until I've had a chance to observe the tube height adjustment.
I suspect that increasing the tire pressures and maybe front spring rate (preload) may help minimize the heavy feeling front end.

On my ride I did some exploring and found a delightfully twisty ribbon of asphalt out near Astoria (Olney) that frankly reminded me of Christmas ribbon candy or tinsel draped over the X-Mas tree branches.
As I tend to do, I picked up the pace until I was fairly attacking an unfamiliar road, on unfamiliar and brand new tires (about 60 miles at this point).
Again, a couple of minor but gentle slides and the same heavy feeling front end.

I rode down the coast and came back in on 53.
I decided to hammer 53 (who can resist?!), at least the tighter bits before the junction of 26.
I worked the throttle hard (the V4 has great useable torque that allows early acceleration).
The rear tire gave no real surprises, and surprising grip when I was actually trying to break it loose (good and warmed up by now).
I only got a couple of minor twitches when I was expecting more.
I noted that the front end gave good (if not great) grip, and had lightened up somewhat, no doubt aided by making the rear end squat under throttle, which further confirms my suspicions about necessary adjustments.

I let the tires cool down for about 15 minutes during refueling, latrine break, etc., then slabbed 26 back to (??-the road that leads back to 202/Jewell).
I took 202, 47, through Vernonia then Timber Rd, crossed 26, through Timber, then back to Gales Creek, and a lap around Hagg Lake.
A moderate/quick pace, but not really pushing it.
The front end seemed a little lighter, or maybe I had simply gotten used to it and subconsciously adjusted.
Grip was very good throughout.

I picked up the pace again on some of my favorite backroads that I don't know the name of, and over Bald Peak and home.

There is a favorite little dip into a rising 90-degree right, with a bend to the left over the crest that I like to hit hard.
A few years back a left a big unintended blackie until the crest, on the R1 wearing SuperCorsas (I had a witness behind me who shall go unnamed, but he may remember the construction workers that almost attacked us with shovels when they saw it!).
Admittedly the R1 (tuned for max torque by EDR) made it easy, but the Shinko wouldn't break loose under the VFR's torque.

I hammered Bald Peak from the Newberg side back to Scholls fairly hard, and the tires worked admirably.
During the entire day they did not want to stand up under as much trail-braking as I dared with new tires, and I get the impression they won't.
Overall grip was just fine, even on sketchy concrete-y and gravelly surfaces.
To be honest, I still held a bit in reserve and didn't really punish them due to being brand new and still working out the mold release agent.
I would say 6-7/10ths for the most part, with occasional 8-8.5/10ths.
The chicken strips are about 1/4" on both sides front & rear - not bad for first ride.
I absolutely did not notice any truly insufficient grip when really asking for it and fully warm; the few tiny slides I noticed I attribute to pushing a cold, brand new tire a little harder than perhaps I should have, but I wanted to know how they would behave when slid - Very well, I'd say.
A couple more heat cycles to fully condition them and I'll hit it harder just to probe their limits a bit more.

I'm also curious about wear.
I do see just a tiny bit of worn edges on the front tread blocks at the end of the day, but to be fair I've always been one to work the front end hard, and for that reason I focused my aggression on the front.
We'll see how it goes.

All in all, I'd say a perfectly adequate, if not inspiring, set of tires, with more than adequate grip for most, at a very reasonable price.
I think for the target market these represent a very good value and have more capability than most buyers will need.

I'm planning another ride in the next day or two, to consider the effect of the front end adjustment noted above.
I'll plan on updating this review periodically.

[Britt]

Excellent write up - thank you for taking the time to put this together with so much detail!

[timothy wahl]

how about an update on the tires?

[WhiteKnight]

I agree with timothy, any update?

[Rat]

Wow, I didn't think anyone was interested - I had posted this update elsewhere, and copied it here.
Here ya go (OK, It's definitely a LONG read, but a lot of info):
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I just write how I think; sometimes succinct, sometimes expressive.
I'm doing this review simply because while there seems to be quite a bit of curiosity about Shinkos, there doesn't seem to be much info about how they actually perform. There is precious little feedback from actual use.
I figured I'm qualified and capable enough to help figure these things out, and my circumstances dictated using the Shinkos anyway so I thought I'd pass along my impressions.
I'm hoping my efforts may help answer some questions and save some $$ for other cash-starved riders looking for decent tires at a good price.
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Round 2

Wow! The bike is transformed!

I’ve had the bike about 7 or 8 months now, but left the suspension set full soft and the bar risers installed for wet weather sport-touring and commuting.
No sense firming everything up if the conditions keep the speed down; might as well be comfortable.
Now that the warm & dry weather is here I’ve been adjusting the preload and damping for harder riding.

I set the fork tubes to 10mm showing above the top triple clamp, as previously described.
Turn-in is light, quick, and sure.
There is no tendency to drop in at higher lean angles, or an unusually heavy feeling which can occur if the tubes are raised too much, as was the case with the GenMar risers in place.
Raising the fork tubes effectively lowers the front end and shifts the weight balance forward onto the front contact patch, which can make the steering quicker and more secure feeling, but too much makes the steering heavy simply because its carrying more weight.
The steering is very neutral now, and very sporty feeling.
Overall the bike is now much lighter on its ‘feet’, and much more nimble than previous.
It’s more “sportbike”, and less “sport-touring” now.

So, on to the Shinkos.

Round 2 Impressions:

85 degree day, with strong sun and very warm, humid air, about 80 miles.
I knew road conditions and grip would be very good; any slip was likely to be from the tires.

The shortest route to any real corners from my garage is about 6 or 7 miles of surface streets and 40-50mph rolling, curvy farm roads.
I wanted to try a few corners that I know well, while the tires were as cold as possible; I rode very gently and slow as much as possible getting to the good stuff.

The first two corners were a slow (15-20mph) right and left in quick succession, at the top of a longish uphill straight (about 70ish going in).
Hard on the brakes and bending into the right, at the crest, and the front tire was just completely there.
A slight blip of throttle and snap it shut, to bend into the left, and the front handled it just fine.
The transition was neutral and reasonably quick; better, I thought, than the Metzeler Z6 RoadTec.

I noted that the steering still felt ever so slightly heavy, but much, much better than before, with just the fork tube height adjustment.

3 or 4 more miles of mostly straight backroads at about 45-50mph and I started up the front side of Bald Peak.
After 2 SUV’s pulled out from a side road and a driveway in front of me just moments apart, I was suddenly feeling a bit peevish...
Just before a really good 25mph right hander, I had to pass a cage and get hard on the brakes and trail-brake pretty hard to make the turn.
I tip-toed as much as possible before I had to force the right side to the deck.
The tires had maybe 10 or 12 miles at this point, but gave absolutely no problems.

Up and over the mountain I started to pick up the pace.
In certain corners where the RoadTecs always wiggled a bit due to silt and chewed up surfaces, even when warm, the Shinkos simply rolled right through seemingly oblivious to the degraded grip.

Down the length of Bald Peak Road, lots of medium speed gently rolling straights, with a few tight corners, and the tires were neutral and relaxed.

I wanted to run down Laurelwood Rd, downhill, with the tires still a little cool.
Laurelwood Rd is much like a steep downhill ski slalom run.
The 12 or 14 corners are pretty much all sharply downhill and very off-camber, and tight.
As good a test of front tire grip that I know of.
I was very pleased by the Shinkos. Absolutely not a slip.
I didn’t push quite as hard as I could, as the tires were still not fully warm, and still unfamiliar to me, but I expected a couple slips and got nothing but grip.

On to Hagg Lake.
Hagg Lake road is 11 miles of scenic twisting 2 lane, with almost every sort of corner there is.
The road has sections of very smooth pavement, with fast corners and great sight-lines, to gnarly rolling bumpy parts, and a few very slow downhill and slightly uphill hairpins.
The slower corners usually have a bit of sand and/or gravel from logging trucks and recreational boat trailers using the many dirt side roads.
It’s just a fun road, at practically any speed.

I started my clockwise lap at a moderate pace just to think about the tires’ feedback and responses to the rough pavement etc.
This quickly evaporated however when a considerate motorist pulled to the right shoulder and waved me past on the inside of a tightish left corner.
Naturally I took the bait!
Suddenly feeling more aggressive, I got a bit more serious and threw caution to the wind for a while, “just to analyze the tires”...!

With the bike feeling much sportier, and the pace “just so”, the tires floated over the rough stuff very comfortably, but provided as much grip as I needed when necessary.
The front grip was much, much better than the impression I was left with following my first ride.
I suspect several days baking in a 120degree garage during the recent heat wave may have helped season the rubber; it certainly didn’t hurt!

I was very impressed with the front tire’s solid feeling and grip when pushing hard into a slow hairpin, trail-braking firmly to the apex, and forcing the bike deep into the corner.
Combined hard braking and cornering was very good.

Now feeling my oats, and with faith in the front end, I decided to start driving hard out of the corners to check rear grip.
I started rolling firmly into the throttle earlier and earlier until the front end was getting light and a little headshake occurred almost every time.

Here’s where things got a little interesting...

So, I had charged hard down a long hill into a longish right hander in a bowl, with a nice little downhill/uphill dip right at the apex.
A great test of both front grip going in, and rear grip driving out.
Just when the suspension fully loaded up in the bowl, and looking out and up across my right elbow, the sight line was just beautiful so I rolled firmly into the throttle just before the apex for a good drive out.

At that exact moment...
**A running dialogue of my thoughts:
“Oh fudge” (except I didn’t think “fudge”)”
“Why is my rear tire trying to pass me on the outside?!?”
“Unghh” (physical effort trying to hold on to the bars snapping to the left as it suddenly crossed up)
“Orders from the Helm: Easy boys... Steady on the throttle now... Just maintain present course and speed... Don’t let the throttle snap shut!”
“Wow this slide is lasting a looong time...”
“Why?”
“Perhaps I ought to take a look at the pavement and see if I’ll glean any info that might help me here”
“Oh, that’s it! Tar Snakes!”
“OK, at least it wasn’t my own stupid fault, or these Shinkos”
“Centerline!, Centerline!” (drifting outwards)
“Agghhh! oncoming LOGGING TRUCK!!!”
“Oh wait, he’s still a ways up there, and it appears he’s seen me and has started to brake and swerve to his right. We’ll be fine.”
“Shizz, this thing’s gonna highside when the tires catch”

**Yes, this is pretty much the thoughts that went through my head in maybe half a second - it really is amazing how fast the human brain can process information. Computers will never match it.

The rear tire regained grip with such subtlety I can scarcely describe it.
At one moment the rear end was way out there, the next it simply started driving forward again.
I honestly could not feel when it started to grip again.
It was just completely sublime.
Two quick downshifts, I rolled back into the throttle, a wave of thanks to the trucker and we were on our way again.
End of the drama.

A while later on Tile Flat Road (?), I was “forced” to pass a surprisingly quick and well-driven Volvo 760 Turbo Wagon (lowered, fat tires), to get to the good twisties unimpeded.

When I got to that really cool rising right/left that I described in the first post, again I could not get the back end to step out intentionally.
*The tires were quite warmed up by now.

Back towards home, back over Bald Peak from the Newberg side, and a couple of favorite fast corners where I just let it fly in without really braking and I got the opportunity to try a couple of high speed corner exits.
80ish going in, sailed through at 60ish with about 8000rpm showing, and I rolled the throttle on pretty darn hard for really sweet, fast exits with quite a bit of real power to the contact patch.
The rear tire just gripped and squirted out of the corners.
I was kinda expecting a little frame flex and twitch, and maybe some headshake, but I got just a little rear squat and composed thrust.

Observations/Impressions:
The ride was comfortable. They soaked up pavement imperfections well.
Straight line stability was very good. No wandering over broken and rolling pavement, and no real tendency to track grooves and such.
Overall feedback was much improved, and they felt “lively” and quick.
The front tire simply gripped very well, and did not want to stand up when trail-braking.
Initial turn-in was light, with neutral roll to steeper lean angles; not the quickest turning, but no drop-in - You get what you ask for.

Rear ride and grip were just fine. No faults.
*As previously stated, I focus much more on the front. The rear, for me, is mostly to keep the back of the bike from dragging, and to put down the power.
If it grips well enough, and recovers well from a slide, and doesn’t beat up my backside with a rough ride, I’m usually satisfied.
For me the magic happens up front.

I will say that the front tire *might* be a little heavy, but I’m much less convinced of this than on the first ride.
I know the chassis adjustment made a huge difference, as anticipated.
The rear end seemed to still be squatting a bit more than I like, and still seems just a bit soft in general.
A little more rear spring preload will firm it up, and keep the chassis’ attitude balanced correctly for a bit more weight on the front and to keep the fork rake steep and the steering quick.
I suspect this little tweak may make everything just right. Perhaps also one more click of rear damping.

I’m less sure of the need for more front preload.
It seems the front is now on the borderline of pushing through the stroke and overdoing the damping, but it’s not bottoming out.
I’ll crank up the rear just a bit and think about the front.
I think I’ll also bump up the tire pressures a bit now.

I’m very close to the sweet spot for the chassis and suspension.
The bike feels about 20lbs lighter than before, and much more nimble and poised.

I haven’t really had the chance to ride quite as hard and fast as I’d really like. There will be ample opportunity in time.
I think though, that when the opportunity arises I’ll simply hang it out and let her fly; I have enough faith and trust in the tires now.

The grip was much, much better on the 2nd ride, with absolutely no slides, wiggles, or other bad signs with the exception of the tar snake incident.

My only real concern now is that I think the tires’ profiles might not be quite complementary.
The front is round, like a Metzeler, which I like; predictable and stable.
The rear however, feels like it has a flatter profile than the front.
It seems like it needs a little coaxing to get it onto its side tread area.
A slight mismatch, but not a fatal flaw.
Most people wouldn’t notice it.

Overall:
Lively, with good feedback.
Great feel for the road surface, and seem ready for anything.
Sporty feeling and encourage spirited riding.
Grip is very good, especially on rough pavement and tight corners.
No tendency to stand up under hard braking.
Use a firm hand at the tiller and they’ll handle aggressive riding.
Spirited, fun tires!

I think these (the 006’s) would be well suited for bikes very much like the VFR.
- Not more than 80-90 rwhp, and maybe 475lbs fully fueled.
SV650, FZ-6, Ninja 500 & 650, YZF600, VFR750 - any middleweight sporty bike.

For more power and S/S bikes I think the 005’s might be more optimal.

I think the 009‘s would probably work well for FZ1’s, Bandit 12’s, VFR800’s - heavier & more powerful bikes than my VFR.

I think these 006’s would be a laugh riot on a supermoto or hooligan bike!
Very good grip overall, but fun and easy to control when playing with the limit of adhesion.

Unless I get any surprises in the future, I think I’m going to “Highly Recommend” these tires.
Not just “for inexpensive tires”, but overall.
I’ve ridden worse tires that I’ve paid more money for...
Surprisingly good, and a very good value.

I like these tires!
I have to say I’m more impressed than I thought I’d be.

Next up I’ll be looking to ride them really hard and fast for a while , and see what I get.
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** I'm gathering my thoughts for the next update from the last few rides, and I also have a long ride planned in a few days.
One of my initial impressions has proven to be not really the case...

[VsVFR]

Awesome review! Thanks for all the info. I know I don't ride near as hard as you do so I'm sure that they would work perfectly for me, plus any time I can pinch those pennies I am extremely thankful. Thanks again.

Vs

[Rat]

Just a quick update -

The 006's lasted almost exactly 5000 miles until the rear was worn to about 1-1.5mm, with the front showing practically no tread at all in the strip about 2/3's out from the center (closer to the edge than the middle).

The tires were excellent in rain during the first 3000 miles or so, but wet grip dropped off noticeably during the last 1000ish miles.

Some memorable rides included a few EXTREMELY HARD, full-out, hard-as-I-could thrashes alongside an expertly piloted '07 GSXR750 (with 50 more rwhp & 75 fewer pounds); several group rides with highly modded G1k's, R1's, ZX10's, R6's w/magnesium wheels, Speed Triple, Ducatis and other exotic SS bikes, and much more.

The Shinko 006's took all I could dish out, and after the first 1000ish miles, and when fully warm, DID NOT ONCE EVER slip, slide or otherwise unexpectedly step out on me, even when thrashing hard on cool and semi-damp roads during early morning group rides.

Even with my most aggressive, nothing-held-back efforts on very hot days, the Shinkos NEVER overheated.
The only other brand I can say that about is Contis.
I have overheated Metz's and Dunlops (sometimes surprisingly easily).

They were utterly reliable, and quickly earned my trust and never caused me to lose faith.

I came away very, VERY impressed with these tires and I HIGHLY RECOMMEND Shinko 006's.

With a skilled rider at the helm, I simply don't see the need to spend any more $$ if the bike isn't used for trackdays.

I just recently switched to Shinko 009's for winter use and year-round commuting (more durable compound & construction and better rain grooving), and will hopefully soon post a new Review of them.
So far I'm very impressed with the 009's - Outstanding in monsoon-like rain!

[rc24rc51]

Rat, you da man!! terrific review. I've seen a lot of guys using the Shinkos but none of them are riding the twistys w/them so they're always just completely worn out in the center. I was under the impression the Shinko purchased the molds etc from Michelin. Hence the striking resemblence of one of their tires to the old Pilot. The tire you used seems to resemble an old Dunlop. Nevertheless, outstanding write-up. BTW The Shinko Stealth is quite popular with the drag racers around here.

[Lgn001]

Nice review(s)/write-up(s) and follow up. Thanks!

[nitronorth]

I used a set of the 009's st type last year on my 00 and they worked just fine. Mostly mtn road riding, some prairie,good when #$$% hot and decent in the rain.I would buy them again in a second but since the US dollar went back up, the shipping a is a @##% now to canada and cost me the same as the current 021's i can buy here , so no reason to.. Bottom line is once i got used to the diff feel, about a hr or two, they did anything I could get away with on the mtn roads i normally ride. I easily got 11,000km out of the back one and the front is only half gone.I don't pussyfoot either. As a note, they really made my fjr13 feel totally diff,very weird at first, much faster turn in than my other tires, but they really didnt have much diff affect on the vfr as the fjr. For the price, and if you really don't need to be mr racer in ur mind, they are great for the price far as i can tell. certainly worth trying for the price to see for urself.. :)

[1985700ceptor]

i just mounted a set of 006 podiums on the vf700. i've put aprox. 80 miles on them and all i can say is wow!these things are great