Saying Goodbye to the VFR

[Rambamatic]

I have owned my 2000 VFR for a couple of years now, and I've put almost 23,000 miles on it in that time. All in all, it's been a great bike, and I've had a lot of fun with it. However, it's in the shop now with mysterious and apparently unsolvable electrical and valve issues, and I've said that it's just time for a new bike.

So, it's time to upgrade, and so off I went to the Honda dealer to talk about getting a brand spanking NEW VFR!!!

So, I get there and I start looking at the new '08 models, and they say, "Hey, we've got a used '07 with 8,000 miles on it that we can let you test ride. They're pretty much identical to the '08...no major changes."

So, I hand over my 2000 and get on their '07, and off I go for a test ride.

The first thing that I notice about the bike is that there is this strange quality to the feel of the engine in acceleration that I can only describe as "squishy" and "lag". For example, if you're in second, and you twist on full throttle, there is a noticeable delay. It's like you can count "one-thousand one....one-thousand" before the bike actually starts to give you any power. During that time, the bike is accelerating, but in a very slow, squishy way, like it's moving through molasses. THEN, all of a sudden, the bike "decides" that it's going to do what you asked it to do a second and a half ago, and jerks in with a huge thrust of power. The first time, it practically knocked me off the seat.

I took the bike about 4 miles, and took it from the low to mid and high range of the band in every gear before deciding that it felt (to me) like the bike wasn't running on all cylinders OR that there was an issue with the fuel injection system. So, I turned around, brought the bike back, and told them that I thought there was a problem with the bike.

When I explained it to them, they said: "No, that's just the VTEC system. It's a variable valve timing system, and it's not always on, it kicks in at certain times, and that's what you're feeling."

I raised my eyebrows and was like "You're kidding." Nope. They told me to vary my riding....they said it's just something that "you get used to" and that there's a "certain way that you have to ride it."

So, with a few instructions (including not to "hard accelerate" ....yeah, you heard me right), I went back out and rode the bike for another 10 miles or so.

I have to say that riding this VFR with the VTEC system is one of the most unpleasant and thoroughly confounding experiences on a bike of my entire life. In my opinion, this VTEC system goes WAAAYYYY beyond just an inconvenience and well into the realm of outright dangerous. On a bike, a second of acceleration time can be the difference between a tiny scratch on your rear or a full impact broadside lethal crash....and the idea that I have to be constantly fearful that, should I need to execute a quick acceleration escape maneuver, the bike cannot and will not be capable of doing what I ask it to, when I need it to do it, is totally unacceptable.

After refusing another test ride and leaving totally dispirited, I came online and did some searching on forums, and found a lot of other people who feel this way. Depressed, a buddy of mine said he had a surprise for me....wouldn't tell me what.

So, last Saturday, we got onto his '08 ZX-14 (this thing is a jet plane on wheels and I spent most of the ride like this: ) and rode about 20 miles to a BMW dealer. We got there and I was like "Dude, what are we doing here?"

Well, that question was answered when I promptly was shown, and test drove, both the BMW F 800 ST and the Triumph Sprint ST.

Wow....what an amazing and utterly eye opening experience. Totally in despair that I'd either have to own a 5th generation Viffer for ever or sacrifice all that I loved about the VFR's sport / touring capacity, I fell in love with both of these bikes immediately. Faster, more responsive, just as good looking, stock hard bags, ABS (instead of those ugly after market givi or bettle bags), and equal to even better riding position (the f 800 st has the best riding position, period), I am going back this Tuesday to make a choice.

It's a tough choice, but I'm leaning towards the Triumph.....and I'm not even thinking twice about it.

To Honda: What a way to completely ruin the VFR franchise and drive a whole contingent of present and future VFR riders away from a legendary bike that has been utterly ruined, in my opinion. Honda had better get it's act together with this bike, because when Rupert Paul wrote in BIKE that the "VFR is dead", I scoffed...until I rode the new VFR against it's competitors. Now, I totally agree.

So, I think that this will probably be my last post here. I will come back and check this thread to answer questions, and etc.....but as far as VFR goes, I'm off.

That is all.

Carry on.

[speed]

what do you want for your 2000 the way it sets ? PM me please thanks

[NorcalBoy]

way to go speed, keep it in the family

[Viffergirl]

Best of luck with your new purchase! The way I see it - you're riding - and that's what counts!

[Rambamatic]

To the guy who posted that "The Bike is obviously not running correctly" and then deleted hhis post (??).

As I found, this is actually a very common complaint of the VFR VTEC. Several of the reviews done by magazines that I looked up (to be sure if this was really a VTEC issue or just something wrong with the bike that they didn't want to admit) indicated pretty much the same thing, pointing out the particular hazards and issues of having VTEC kick in during turns.

Then, there's this guy and this issue, here:Honda VFR Club - VTEC and Power Commader III

" VTEC and Power Commader III
OK I haven’t had time to extensively test out the modifications but a quick (two hourJ) ride this afternoon tells me at this stage I am really pleased with the addition of the Power Commander III and Oxygen sensor eliminators to my VTEC.
As I mentioned in an earlier posting (Enough is Enough) I had a couple of niggling faults with fuelling which was leaving me disheartened with the bike. The first was that there was a hesitancy on using constant throttle and second was that I had the bike virtually stall at low speeds on leaving a roundabout followed by the VTEC ‘kicking in’ which nearly high sided me off. With the help of Dean and Wayne at Dynospeed, Chigwell we think that we may of found the cause and hopefully eliminated it. The oxygen sensors as their name implies monitors the oxygen levels in the exhaust and under certain conditions i.e. A constant 3K and minimal throttle opening will adjust the AIR/FUEL mixture making it lean (eg. a long slow roundabout) when you get back on the throttle it then takes time for the fuelling to readjust (hesitancy). The next fault was found in the ECU fuel mapping @ the point just prior to the VTEC activating where there was a clear decrease in the torque followed by a large increase as the additional valves open.
So by combining these faults we can get the following scenario: A VTEC rider follows a a dithering old bird at 20 MPH on a roundabout unable to overtake, finally get to the exit he requires and hits the gas. The bike hesitates as the bike is now running lean, he keeps on the throttle but the bike as entered a power trough, that is until both the fuel becomes richer and simultaneously the VTEC is activated. This induces a large increase on torque for a very small increase in revs. The result a near high side.

This was resolved by remapping the Power Commander to eliminate the dip in power prior to the VTEC activating. The changes to the overall power of the bike is minimal but the confidence levels when riding the bike on twisty narrow country roads is much higher, as the step in power when VTEC kicks in is minimal and virtually seamless (Don’t worry you still get the induction roar).
I have the dynoplots and will post them as soon as I can get them scanned in.

Steve"

The point to all of this is that sure, the VTEC issue is not an issue for some people, but for many people, it is a huge issue and with some very potentially dangerous unintended consequences....

[Richard Thompson]

i think your choice of the Triumph sprint is spot on.its as close to what the gen 6 VFR should have been, in terms of power delivery, as any bike ive ridden.
I find VTEC to be a bit of a 'technical wank" by honda. it would have been better to increase cc's by 100 and give it a big fat bottom end/midrange power curve and to hell with too much top end. there's plenty of bikes vying for the 300kmph club already anyway.
but what would we know-were just the riding public?????


having said that, ive learnt to live with VTEC, i ride around it, its forces compromise in style, but thats ok. i will eventually adjust as per your
previous comment by the addition of cans, PC3 and filter and with a bit of dyno time.

as viffer girl says - at least your still riding. thats the main thing.

BTW, no need to leave the forum. its still a fun place!

[mello dude]

Rambamatic - you discovered the same thing I did riding a 5th and 6th back to back over severall thousand miles. I went out a bought a 5th. You know from owning one the 5th's engine has no goofy quirks - it just flat out runs, no hesitations. The engine rocks! I hope that if I ever wear out my present 5th, I can find another one.

Good luck with the Triumph. Hey - after you had it a while come back and give an owners impression of it.

MD

[SLOav8r]

Originally Posted by Richard Thompson

i think your choice of the Triumph sprint is spot on.its as close to what the gen 6 VFR should have been

The sprint has a 250cc bigger engine though. Definitely a different class of bike.

My money would be on the F800ST. In fact if something were to happen to the VFR, I've already decided it's my replacement bike. I've even boggling on buying an F800 for my daily commute (120 miles) so I don't destroy the VFR. It's almost a decade old, and I want to enjoy it another decade -- it's the bike that will always have a place in my garage.

The sprint's big engine of course has way more power then the F800, but the BMW is 50 pounds lighter stock. Remus titanium slip-on will shave another 15 pounds off that.

With nearly identical wheelbases, the BMW is way more flickable because of the weight advantage and the lower center of gravity thanks to the under-seat fuel tank.

As will all BMW's, they're deceptively fast too. The F800 may not have the balls out speed our 5th gens do, but it's darn close. Way, way smoother though. Go for the ABS/tire monitor too if you do a lot a touring.

Belt drive is trouble free, so no typical BMW final drive issues. My trip to New York sucked having to carry chain lube. Next big adventure is going to be shaft or belt drive.

And sorry Richard, I have to recommend German reliability over British.

[SLOav8r]

And if the F800 just isn't enough,
K1200S baby!!!

If you haven't found God, one of these will sure bring you closer...

[base341]

Hey Sloav8r, are you a jump pilot?

[Richard Thompson]

[
And sorry Richard, I have to recommend German reliability over British. [/quote]

no worries slo, i havent any saddle time on the F800 but my seat of pants experience on the triumph was enough to make me look into buying one.

man, you commute alot! and i can see your logic.

however if you talking BMW R 1200GS.....im a big fan of those.

[SLOav8r]

Originally Posted by base341

Hey Sloav8r, are you a jump pilot?

Yep, part time. It's way too much fun to do full time.


And Ramb, I'm not a big Kaw person... But a ZX-14 with some hard luggage would be AWESOME as a hyper-tourer.

[XXFirefighter]

One of the firefighters at work had 3 of them...
and NOT at the same time....

2 of them got lemon-law'd
So he got smart...
Traded the 3rd in....

I wouldn't' ride a Triumph if it was FREE.

[Rambamatic]

Originally Posted by SLOav8r

The sprint has a 250cc bigger engine though. Definitely a different class of bike.

My money would be on the F800ST. In fact if something were to happen to the VFR, I've already decided it's my replacement bike. I've even boggling on buying an F800 for my daily commute (120 miles) so I don't destroy the VFR. It's almost a decade old, and I want to enjoy it another decade -- it's the bike that will always have a place in my garage.

The sprint's big engine of course has way more power then the F800, but the BMW is 50 pounds lighter stock. Remus titanium slip-on will shave another 15 pounds off that.

With nearly identical wheelbases, the BMW is way more flickable because of the weight advantage and the lower center of gravity thanks to the under-seat fuel tank.

As will all BMW's, they're deceptively fast too. The F800 may not have the balls out speed our 5th gens do, but it's darn close. Way, way smoother though. Go for the ABS/tire monitor too if you do a lot a touring.

Belt drive is trouble free, so no typical BMW final drive issues. My trip to New York sucked having to carry chain lube. Next big adventure is going to be shaft or belt drive.

And sorry Richard, I have to recommend German reliability over British.

I agree with a lot of what you say. To a few specific points:

I like the Triumph better than the F800 because the F800 is a little small on me (I'm 6' 1", 200 lbs, with long legs), the styling isn't nearly as nice as either the Triumph or the VFR, AND because I do a LOT of touring with full bags and gear strapped on, and the Triumph represents a perfect compromise between staying at the sportier end of the spectrum (800 CC VFR and F800) and the larger ST bikes (ST1300, FJR1300, K1200GT or K1200rs)....it literally splits that difference right down the middle, and I really, really like that.

In terms of the flickability, I have to disagree. The Triumph handles, IMO, a bit better than the F800, and there was no real difference in flickability. If anything, the triumph's quick handling response was about equal to what I felt in the '07 VFR that I rode.....better than the 5th gen that I am on now, but balanced nicely.

As far as the reliability goes, the last 3 years or so have seen a huge jump in Triumph's reliability....especially with the Sprint. Sure, you don't have as many places that can service them, but doing the research on it, I can see that there aren't any major issues or flaws, no recalls, etc. on this particular model and that the last several years have been really good for them all around.

Before I'd get the F800, I think I'd consider moving up to the 1200 and 1300 CC Sport touring bikes. I was staying in the 800 cc VFR class mostly because of the VFR V-4, but if you take the VFR specific out of the equation, it makes more sense for me to move UP rather than stay there.

[NorcalBoy]

Originally Posted by Rambamatic

To the guy who posted that "The Bike is obviously not running correctly" and then deleted hhis post (??).

I deleted my post because i decided i didn't want to get into a discussion about the subject matter....it would have been a waste of time. peace. good luck with the triumph or bmw, whichever you choose.

[RVFR]

Hmm feel your pain, always wondered why Honda did what they did besides the fact they can. But I'm puzzled why didn't you just get another clean 5th gen? I mean you had the best there is all ready, why change? or did I miss something?

Please do stick around, be good to hear from you now and then , LOL I'll think he'll be back, once bitten you never stray to far away.

[Rambamatic]

Originally Posted by SLOav8r

Yep, part time. It's way too much fun to do full time.


And Ramb, I'm not a big Kaw person... But a ZX-14 with some hard luggage would be AWESOME as a hyper-tourer.

I agree as well. I'm going to figure that one into the equation, too. However, I'd need to raise the handlebars significantly....which can be done.

I guess that this is the "short list" :

Triumph Sprint ST
BMW K1200GT
Kawasaki ZX-14 Ninja with raised bars and hard bags

I might figure the Suzuki bandit 1250 in there, too. The V-Strom was a contender for a while as well, but it's just too damn ugly and the V-twin is not my style