Two questions for seasoned VFR riders

[VFR_Bulldawg]

Hey everyone. I'm new to riding, a new VFR owner, and new to the board. I've got two questions.

I was discussing cornering mechanics, how to's, and what if's with a friend of mine who been riding several years. He was giving me advice for what to do if I went into a corner and my inexperienced brain starts blinking the TOO FAST alarm. (FYI, I'm a cautious person and do not plan to be out racing around pushing as fast I can go, but I do recognize that this will probably happen at some point) His recommendation is to lean it over farther and trust the bike can corner better and faster than I can expect it to. He also said that if you have enough room I can stand the bike up, brake, then lean it back over. The third option he said I could use would be to trail brake into the curve using only the rear brake so as not to shift as much weight forward onto the front tire causing the front tire to slide. I then reminded him that my VFR has linked brakes and that hitting the rear brake pedal will also apply some braking force to the front tire. He's never ridden on a bike with linked brakes so he was not sure if trail braking the rear brake would be a good idea. So can you trail brake into a turn on a VFR with linked brakes? Is a good option or just a possibility but not a good option.

My second question is for any hefty riders with the ABS system. I'm 6 foot 0 inches tall and weigh about 300 lbs (something that I am working on dropping). What do you other big guys set your suspension preloads too? I'll just be riding alone for quite awhile until I'm really confident in my riding abilities, so no 2 up riding for me right now.

[SilverSurfer800]

As a fellow "big" rider of a 05' without ABS (6'0 - 260 and shrinking) the stock suspension SUCKS! If you are worried about any mods for your bike, I would look at upgrading there first. Some people like Ohlins (if they can afford it) or Penske. Once the economy gets a little better I plan on making the decision on one of these 2 options.

As for the turning option, there is a great series of videos on Youtube on this subject. When I get off of work I'll post them up for you. they really explain the whole mechanics of weight distribution, speed and body position in relation to entering a curve. Good stuff!

[Slothrop]

The best advice I have about what to do when you find yourself in a corner and you think you're going too fast:

- DON'T cut the throttle. Keep smoothly on the gas.
- Force yourself to look ahead through the turn, NOT off to the side of the road where you're afraid you're going to go. You will usually go where you look.
- If you need to turn tighter, push on the inside bar, i.e. the handlebar that pointing the direction you are turning. Push right to go right and vice versa. This may seem counterintuitive but it works and it's a good thing to practice so you can do it without thinking when you don't have time to think.

It's true that your bike can lean farther and corner faster than you probably feel like it can. Work on getting smooth through turns, with one steering input at the start and your eyes on the exit. Keep a smooth throttle and avoid the death grip on the bars.

HTH - Paul in MI

[Joey_Dude]

I wouldn't recommend trail braking; I tried it and the bike wants to stand back up instead of continuing the same direction.

With the suspension preload as long as you're not experiencing a pogoing effect going through turns just leave it alone. But as you get more practice and get confident with faster turns you'll probably find that the bike does an annoying pogoing transitioning through curves. Only then I would recommend tightening up the suspension.

As for leaning, as long as you're not dragging the footpegs you'll be ok. An advanced topic is to get the knee out for further leaning while increasing traction but I recommend mastering the basic sitting down lean FIRST. Here's this thread on body position: Body position

There is quite a bit of advice on this forum and you can use the search feature to find them.

[mello dude]

Cornering smoothly is the best technique for speed in the corners, that what I work on constantly. I also do some trail braking, sometimes front and sometimes rear or both.

As a newbie, you need to work on - walk before you run. That means getting all the braking done before the corner, slow in out fast. Practice your eye movements - look thru the corner with a lazar focus and stick hard to that line while on the throttle.

Now for your situations where you know your too hot. Yes your bike most likely has a wider performance envelop that you do, and it will lean hard if you push it. One important point is that when you recognize in that moment that your too hot is to fight panic and mentally grab that moment and think "hell no I will not go down!" The thing to do then is immediately shift your eyes looking where you want to go, and shove that bike harder into your lean,(via push on the bar "countersteer"or otherwise) and ease it thru your corner. Lots of times throwing you inside shoulder down in the way you want to go is a good idea too. Dont be afraid to move around on your bike. Sometimes even adding throttle helps.

I have witnessed too many newbies who do the panic thing, stand the bike up, fixate on some object, lock the brakes and nail that object dead on, and eat it. Dont do it! Exactly why to pay attension to above.

Practice doing line changes mid corner so you get the feel of it. You can do it at a lower speed. The purpose is not to go fast but to know you can save your ass later if you need it.

Books highly recommended - Nick Ienatch "Sport Riding Techniques" and Reg Pridmoores " Smooth Riding". Buy 'em, absorb them, swallow them. Then practice, practice, practice. The more you do, the more the reps become firmware in your brain, and the better chance you have to stay alive.

Ride Well,
MD

[squirrelman]

cornering and smooth riding are also discussed quite authoritatively in a series of books by Keith Code entitled "A Twist of the Wrist"

your friend's advice is good, but learn about "countersteer"

[VFR_Bulldawg]

I definitely plan on walking before I run. I took the MSF BRC before I even bought the bike and I've already purchased alot of high quality gear. I'm not a huge risk taker so I have no plans on pushing it too hard, but I imagine I've going to have a couple of "oh craps!" at some point due to a misjudgement of the curve going in. The whole reason I want to ride is cornering in the twisties, not pure speed or anything, I enjoy the curves.

I'm not going to push it though. Back in high school when I learned how to snow ski I went every wednesday to the ski slopes for 5 weeks straight. I spent 4 straight weeks on the green circle runs that didn't even start at the top of the mountain. All my friends kept telling me I was ready to go to the top and do the harder runs. I waited until week 5 spent a couple of hours warming up on the easy runs, then went to the top. By the time I stepped it up I was really ready and never felt out of control and didn't fall once. I'm a pretty good skier now, especially for a guy my size (though I was much thinner back when I started).

I intend to take my riding the same way. I want to get good at counter steering and body position. I found the MSF BRC a little frustrating since I thought it hard to experience and work on counter steering when you never do more than 20 mph. We were usually going slower than that since over half my class was middle aged ladies new to riding who rode crusiers. Even at the end of the second day several of them still seemed pretty nervous on those little Suzuki GN125's. It's hard to countersteer when you going into a curve at 8-10 mph.

It seems that for regular street riding applying the brakes in a turn is not the best option 99% of the time. I don't intend to be braking in a turn. We'll see how that goes though with my noob brain. The MSF BRC really brought home how important looking through the turn is.

My best friend is an experienced rider and puts about 12,000 to 15,000 miles per year on his GSXR 750. I'll be riding with him alot asking him to observe me, critique me, and show me some drills to practice when I'm out riding.

I've already read Keith Code's "Twist of the Wrist II" twice. Thanks for the other book suggestions. I will check into those.

My bike is arriving later this week, so I'm really looking forward to getting out on it.

[Rev]

Welcome to the forum and congrats on the VFR. The first thing I'd recommend is getting the suspension set up correctly; new correct rate fork springs and rear shock. VFRs are notoriously undersprung for pretty much everyone and doing this one mod will increase your confidence and make the bike easier to control. It can be expensive but you will love the results.

As for cornering, all i can say is practice, practice, practice. You shouldn't even be thinking about trail-braking at this point; that is an advanced skill and one that can get you in trouble in a hurry if you don't know what you are doing. Practice looking at the apex then through the corner. Practice your situational awareness. Practice using and trusting your peripheral vision. Practice your consistency and being smooth on and off the throttle and brakes.

Don't worry about getting a knee down or any of that other crap; a VFR can lean over way farther than most people realise. If you enter a corner too hot, LEAN IT OVER MORE! Your brain will be screaming at you to hit the brakes, stand it up, etc. Tell your brain to shut up, and lean it. Pretty soon you will lose the panic reflex and know what to do automatically. Eventually you will get to the point where you can judge a corner as you approach/enter it and make adjustments to your entry on the fly.

The only time you should use the rear brake is at a stop light.

[RVFR]

Originally Posted by Rev

The only time you should use the rear brake is at a stop light.

Not true, but...http://motorcyclebloggers.com/tech-t...trail-braking/

[SilverSurfer800]

OK here are the videos I wrote about earlier. He talks about body position and demonstrates on a stationary bike. Lots of good talk...

Body position Part 1

Body position Part 2

[chomper]

Originally Posted by mello dude

Cornering smoothly is the best technique for speed in the corners, that what I work on constantly. I also do some trail braking, sometimes front and sometimes rear or both.

As a newbie, you need to work on - walk before you run. That means getting all the braking done before the corner, slow in out fast. Practice your eye movements - look thru the corner with a lazar focus and stick hard to that line while on the throttle.

Now for your situations where you know your too hot. Yes your bike most likely has a wider performance envelop that you do, and it will lean hard if you push it. One important point is that when you recognize in that moment that your too hot is to fight panic and mentally grab that moment and think "hell no I will not go down!" The thing to do then is immediately shift your eyes looking where you want to go, and shove that bike harder into your lean,(via push on the bar "countersteer"or otherwise) and ease it thru your corner. Lots of times throwing you inside shoulder down in the way you want to go is a good idea too. Dont be afraid to move around on your bike. Sometimes even adding throttle helps.

I have witnessed too many newbies who do the panic thing, stand the bike up, fixate on some object, lock the brakes and nail that object dead on, and eat it. Dont do it! Exactly why to pay attension to above.

Practice doing line changes mid corner so you get the feel of it. You can do it at a lower speed. The purpose is not to go fast but to know you can save your ass later if you need it.

Books highly recommended - Nick Ienatch "Sport Riding Techniques" and Reg Pridmoores " Smooth Riding". Buy 'em, absorb them, swallow them. Then practice, practice, practice. The more you do, the more the reps become firmware in your brain, and the better chance you have to stay alive.

Ride Well,
MD

great advice!! Nick Ienatch is a better book than keith codes IMO
join some local riding groups aswell. I learned allot form some of the more seasoned riders. pick your group rides carefully! and never feel pressured to ride over your comfort level.
good luck and have fun!

[chomper]

Originally Posted by RVFR

Not true, but...http://motorcyclebloggers.com/tech-t...trail-braking/

that was a good read. i use back brake occasionally to scrub a little speed off on a left turn but never on a right hand turn while hanging off I'm not sure how its possible. lightly is defiantly the only way whether its front or back brakes

[Rev]

Originally Posted by Rev

The only time you should use the rear brake is at a stop light.

Originally Posted by RVFR

Not true, but...http://motorcyclebloggers.com/tech-t...trail-braking/

From your link:

I wouldn’t use the rear brake at all until you are very familiar with the method and are going insanely deep into the turns. I do on occasion use the rear brake when trail-braking, but ever so slightly and only due to an operator error that I am trying to recover.

I stand by my statement. The OP is looking for basic information, not advanced skills.

[mello dude]

Rev, I think we're at agreeing to disagree. I am a firm believer and practitioner of knowing how to use the front and rear brakes together and separately. I think thats a skill all riders need to develop, new and experienced, even though some bikes dont allow separate.

MD

[NorcalBoy]

Originally Posted by VFR_Bulldawg

Hey everyone. I'm new to riding, a new VFR owner, and new to the board. I've got two questions.

I was discussing cornering mechanics, how to's, and what if's with a friend of mine who been riding several years. He was giving me advice for what to do if I went into a corner and my inexperienced brain starts blinking the TOO FAST alarm. (FYI, I'm a cautious person and do not plan to be out racing around pushing as fast I can go, but I do recognize that this will probably happen at some point) His recommendation is to lean it over farther and trust the bike can corner better and faster than I can expect it to. He also said that if you have enough room I can stand the bike up, brake, then lean it back over. The third option he said I could use would be to trail brake into the curve using only the rear brake so as not to shift as much weight forward onto the front tire causing the front tire to slide. I then reminded him that my VFR has linked brakes and that hitting the rear brake pedal will also apply some braking force to the front tire. He's never ridden on a bike with linked brakes so he was not sure if trail braking the rear brake would be a good idea. So can you trail brake into a turn on a VFR with linked brakes? Is a good option or just a possibility but not a good option.

I'll offer a suggestion, If you really want to learn, learn from the professionals. Don't expect to gain anything from posting on an open forum, unless freddie spencer or keith code or reg pridmore are answering your inquiry. If you attend a riding school, there is no ego involved, the riding coaches don't want or care to tell how great they are or how experienced they are.....they want you to become a better rider and they are coaches because they KNOW what they are talking about. Invest in yourself and go learn from the pros.

[Molsan]