Alternative Fuel Use? ETHANOL?

[bladrnr]

Is anyone out there using E85 ethanol in their bike? What would I have to do to my 2000 to make it bio fuel compatible. How much do you think it would cost?

Thanks

[Jericho941]

E85 is not a very good fuel for trasportation. While it has a high octane rating that can contribute to more horsepower, you'll probably get half of the gas mileage. As far as gettimg you bike set up for it, you'll likely need a power commander and a custom tune after you clear out all of the gasoline. It might be a viable fuel for drag racing, or some other event where you don't need any sort of economy with your fuel. Additionally I can't imagine how e85 will save anyone money as it costs $1.50 to make $1.00 worth of ethanol.

[Fizz]

Originally Posted by Jericho941

E85 is not a very good fuel for trasportation. While it has a high octane rating that can contribute to more horsepower, you'll probably get half of the gas mileage. As far as gettimg you bike set up for it, you'll likely need a power commander and a custom tune after you clear out all of the gasoline. It might be a viable fuel for drag racing, or some other event where you don't need any sort of economy with your fuel. Additionally I can't imagine how e85 will save anyone money as it costs $1.50 to make $1.00 worth of ethanol.

Octane rating and horsepower are unrelated figures, unless you know something I don't, .

But I concur with your other statements, gasoline burns completely at a ratio of 14 parts air to 1 part gasoline. Alcohols (ethanol, methanol, etc.) burn closer to a ratio of 5:1, so for the same volume of air draw (as dictated by the throttle position), pure alcohol would need to draw in 3 times the amount of fuel. Of course, this ratio doesn't work directly with E85 as it is a blend, but you get the picture.

You WOULD however be able to get closer economy to gasoline if you raised the compression of the engine to capitalize on E85's 100+ octane rating. I'm not sure how to do the math to calculate the difference in efficiency at a compression ratio requiring 100 octane.... but I'd imagine the results would be decent.

[KC-10 FE]

As the other 2 replies have pointed out, E85 is not a good idea. You must also consider that E85 will completely destroy your fuel system. That's why you can only use it in vehicles that are specifically setup to use it. Since E85 is quite simply nothing more than a marketing scam, you would be completely wasting your time attempting to modify your bike so it can use it.

KC-10 FE out...

[Jericho941]

I do understand that octane rating is not directly related to horsepower, but I have read articles on concept cars that ran on both E85 and Gasoline, and the car made 500hp on gas, and 600 on E85

[Fizz]

Originally Posted by Jericho941

I do understand that octane rating is not directly related to horsepower, but I have read articles on concept cars that ran on both E85 and Gasoline, and the car made 500hp on gas, and 600 on E85

My guess would be that the engine's knock sensor was retarding the ignition on Gasoline and advancing it (or the degree the engine is supposed to run at) when using e85.

[punisher12b]

Your Right about the E85 .. while it is partly just marketing plan..
There are cars and trucks called Flex fuel.. there fuel systems have been designed to hand both types but a normal gas fuel system.. .. will be eatin alive by E85 .. PUMP seals everything the extra alcohol just destroys gas lines and everything else not metal.. unles sit is a special compound.. ... i contemplated using it for a project once and didnt.. thats all i know and i have horrible spelling.. sorry yall

[abduln]

Hello all, I was browsing around the site (I'm looking to buy a used VFR 800 in February) and came across this thread. I know it's an idle thread, but I just saw a few points in the thread that I thought could use some clarification for anybody in the future who reads this thread.

First, the A/F ratio for alcohols varies per the type of alcohol, but for Ethanol it's not near as low as 5:1 (close for Methanol). Ethanol is around 8.5:1, but for E85 it's almost 10:1, which is about 30% worse than gasoline (which was 14.73:1 if I recall correctly). Methanol is definitely much worse as it's around 6:1, but it has the advantage of not being hydroscopic (doesn't absorb water). Note that these numbers are what are called the stoichiometric fuel ratios, the actual fuel ratios used in motor-vehicles vary according to operating conditions (RPM, load, etc..) and generally run neutral to rich. Another corollary issue is that the fuel injectors would also need to have the capacity to deliver for the increased fuel requirement. But anyway, overall, the range capability is definitely diminished by running E85 by about 30% to 35%.

Second, it's correct that the any fuel component made of standard rubber and many rubber composites will deteriorate due to Ethanol, but in addition, aluminum, steel, and other metals subject to oxidation will corrode due to Ethanol/Methanol. The rubber based components would need to be replaced with appropriate plastic and metal based components, and the metal components would need to be stainless steel or nickel plated on all surfaces that contact fuel or fuel vapor. This also doesn't take into consideration fuel pump requirments; if the pump is submersed in the fuel, it needs to be isolated from the fuel because Ethanol is electrically conductive (oil based fuel is not).

Third, in regards to power, as was noted the fuel itself does not provide more power. In fact, Ethanol and Methanol have less power potential (usually measured in BTUs) than gasoline, so it takes more fuel to make the same horsepower for any given engine; this is why alcohol powered engines ultimately get worse milage than gasoline engines. However more power can come via ignition timing, as Fizz referenced, and static compression due to alcohol. Ethanol/Methanol have higher octante ratings than gasoline, and this will allow for much more liberal application of timing advance as well as for a higher static engine compression. Obviously this would require engine modification, though, as Fizz pointed out, in a stock engine the ignition timing may not be retarded as much with Ethanol/Methanol, so this would be an out of the box benefit.

In general, I don't think it's a horrible idea to consider converting to an alternative fuel, but there are defintely cost and practicality consequences for doing so. As others have pointed out, it's ultimately just not practical for a consumer to convert a motorcycle to use alternative/bio-fuel. E85/Ethanol/Methanol would be a fairly straight-forward transition, but it's while not cost-prohibitive, it's costly, and you need a place to purchase the actual fuel. Bio-Diesel would require a large scope of modifications to the engine, but while it's not impossible or cost-prohibitive for a lot of people, it is impractical and will entirely alter the behavior of the engine in a way that most riders would not enjoy. LPG/CNG would even be possible on a motorcycle, but lets not even go there, lol.

BTW, there was an article the other month in one of the major motorcycle magazines about how the military (can't remember which branch) had a fleet of off road motorcycles converted from gasoline to diesel. They did this because they were trying to avoid having to transport gasoline and diesel to support the variety of in-field fuels to support transportation. The conversion was all handled by a private contractor and it was not that costly, and proved to be a success.

I was also reminded of my old Vespa moped in high-school. I remember one time I ran out of gas at home, so not knowing anything about fuel I looked around the house to see what else I could do to get it to the gas station. I found a can of paint thinner... I know, what was I thinking, lol... and so I poured it in the tank, added oil, and viola it started up and ran... and it ran well might I add. Now that I'm a bit more knowlegable, I look back on that and think wow that was crazy... and don't try that with your motorcycle by the way, that would be insane!

Sorry for the long note.

Cheers,
Abs

[supervfr]

How would one go about converting a gasoline engine to a diesel engine.

[Fizz]

Loved the read abduln. Very informative.

Though as for converting from gasoline to diesel. I don't think there could be a direct conversion.

Diesel would require glow plugs (electrical modification and to the cylinder head), substantially higher compression ratios (more so than I think delicate/think aluminum motorcycle heads would like). Also, Diesel motors don't can't rev as high due to the compression, so you'd be making massive low-end torque, but not going very fast on stock transmission ratios. I think diesel conversion would be better suited for 2 cylinder V-Twins than high reving inlines and V-Fours.

You could probably deck the head to raise the compression, rig up an ECU and injectors for the diesel and mod the head with glow plugs. But as with alt. fuel... there's no simple answer and the complicated one is expensive.