Leaning into turns.....

[sullyvfr]

I had my 04' on the track for the first time at Road Atlanta this weekend. I did really well for my first time, but I struggle with bringing my knee out and leaning into the turns.

Does anyone have any suggestions? I know the VFR isnt a track bike and I am thinking since the tank is so much bigger, it is hard to get from side to side.

[Bubba Zanetti]

Sully:

The VFR is a fine track bike. I'll help you with this but heading to bed, will post tomorrow.

BZ

[Cundalini]

I think the VFR was made for track racing? Fast Freddie Spencer and all.
I am too knew to give advice on cornering, but I have seen lots of vfr track pictures on this site, as well as watched lots of cool VFR race videos on youtube

[soundmaster31]

First of all...was it just an open track or did you have schooling/coaches about proper technique?

Second, When you're cornering, are you riding on the balls of your feet or on the arches?


If you take the corner on the balls of your feet(better toe clearance) and get your butt halfway off the seat in the direction of the turn, then popping the knee out is a little more natural feeling. Using the ball of your foot allows that angle to feel more relaxed as your leg pivots outward. Kind of like how in basketball if you pick up you're dribble you can pivot on one foot...using the ball allows you to change direction easily.


The tank really shouldn't feel like it's in your way. It's kind of the fulcrum point as you slide left or right off the seat. Are your leathers creating a lot of friction on the seat making it difficult to transition from left to right and so on? I know my leathers stick pretty good when it's warm out...but my textile pants are like sliding on ice almost.

I've seen some different instruction on head position but the one that I like and seems comfortable to me is where your chin is moved down in the direction of your inside knee and it's as if you were leaning out and forward into the turn trying to kiss where your mirror would be(track ready bikes). But keep your head looking up and ahead into the turn of course...


BTW, How tall are you? I'm 6'4 so being able to position my knee is fairly easy. I'm not a professional in any way and there are some books you can read about riding position that I'm sure others will chime in with. Just make sure to learn the right way first and start slowly. With good form and practice, speed and grace will follow.

[cebuVFR]

this might help:

Click me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTnKk...20A15&index=12

Click me: YouTube - Dirk Anderson: "Body Position" MSR C

Click me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxODo...om=PL&index=13

[willy]

Hey there. I've done two track days this month on my VRF(a salvage titles bike sans body work which I bought cheap just to do track days with) and will do another on thursday. Being that i'm a dirtbiker/supermoto racer/ and most of all a ice racer at heart; Ive found myself struggling a little bit with getting off the bike to the inside. the funny thing is I had a bit of sucess road racing in the late 90's /early 2000s, but on review even pics taken back then show me riding my sv650 in a pretty retarded fashion.

Last year I took my v strom-pretty much a giant supermoto as far as seating position-for my 1st track day in years and this was the result: Photo Viewer
by no means am I going slowly, but I was dragging hard parts enough to push me off the good lines. you can actually see me trying to figure out how to hang off, but without much success. it is true that my form at times resembles kevin schwants/eddie lawson on a wobbly superbike circa 1982, but thats not what we want now, is it?

Here's what a NESBA control rider told me that seems to be helping: "turning left? right titty touches left tank". Get your body down on the tank beyond it's midline and also, if possible watch video of some pros riding a rain race like koznski at phillips island on his RC45 in (i think 1997-here:YouTube - 1997 World Superbike Phillip Island Race 1 Recap). the reason this is illustrative is you can see how he's using hanging off to keep the bike as straight up and down as possible, which is one reason you want to hang off a VFR, since it will scrape stuff on the ground pretty easy. In my case I removed center stand, and kick stand but still scraped the pipe and peg on the right ( 04' VFR). In this film, he's (kocweirdsky) looking very smooth compared to foggy and all the others who can't seem to stay on thier bikes.

The other thing i'm finding is, the VFR (i'm running michelan pilot powers which is a huge improvemnt over the shinkos that came on the bike) likes to stand up a little if you trail brake and doesn't have that good "on the front wheel" feel thats condusive to confidence in the corners while trail braking, though I believe hanging off more effectivley will help some in muscling the thing to my will. I also raised the fork in the triple clamps 5mm yesterday and my short street rides thus far make me think 10mm would have been better.

last but not least, I'm really looking forward to the next track day in hopes that it wont rain as it did during parts of my last two track days. the VFR was not too bad in the wet but I did high side it once...which was a thrill. what I learned in the wet was something I already knew, which is *don't have your body weight on your hands, especially while on the brakes, but also when hanging off. Carry it in your feet and legs and core instead. this is hard work but on a slippery track anything else causes the bike to move around in a pretty unsettling manner, as does ham handed throttle application. I learned alot pounding out laps in the rain even if it resulted in bent handlbar, smushed frame slider and snapped off shift lever. Thursday should be golden...

good luck...and keep watching video of racers racing, as well as doing track days with control riders like NESBA, because they really can help you improve.

[willy]

also, here's some random dude showing you how not to do it if you plan on adding a bunch of lean angle:GRON4 Photo Viewer

[sullyvfr]

Wow! I really appreciate your time guys. There was an instructor and I understand why you should be on the balls of your feet. I was wearing my suit and boots for the first time. Since I have always ridin on the street, my foot placement was always off the balls of my feet.

I need to get used to the feel of the boots. It seems that when I am on the balls of my feet, it is an unusual feeling and a far reach for the clutch. I will watch the videos and keep practicing as well as condition my legs (quads) to make the body shift smoother.

Thanks again guys and keep the tips coming if you think of any more!



Sully

[Bubba Zanetti]

Well a lot of good responses already LOL!

OK, first thing, and some others have already pointed this out. If your VFR is mechanically sound and your suspension is set up the best it can be for your weight (sag is set) then the VFR is more than capable as a track bike. Is it the best track bike? No! But you can still learn on it.

Here’s a list of VFRW members who use their VFR’s on the track:

Me (4th gen)
Betarace (3rd gen)
Reg71 (5th gen)
Slovfr(4th gen)
Tori (6th gen)
Two4One (6th gen)
PARedVFRRider(6th gen)

I am sure there are others, but they are escaping my mind at the moment. And some members do enough track days they have bought dedicated track bikes, so their VFR’s are retired from track use. But they can comment that they worked well. Two4One is a fellow NESBA rider too and rode his 6th gen in A-group for a time. For those of you familiar with NESBA’s A-group that speaks volumes. I just want to drive the point home that ‘rider skill’ is what makes someone fast, not necessarily the bike they ride.

So your question was about “leaning into curves”. For me, I was taught/ trained to get off the bike and into position way BEFORE the turn. So coming into a turn I’m actually pressing on the opposite grip so the bike isn’t trying to fall into the turn (i.e. approaching a left hand turn I’m off the bike to the left, pressing on the right hand grip to keep the straight bike up and using the brake, this is where the legs and core body strength come in so you aren’t tightening up your arms on the hand grips, then at my turn in point I press on the left grip and the bike snaps into the turn and you go left. My right arm is nice and relaxed on the tank and I’m only using it to roll on the throttle). This process is best described in Lee Parks’ Total Control book. He calls it the 10 steps, which seems like a lot, but once you practice it, it blends together well. It feels very foreign when you first are learning to hang off. But now, I hate cornering without hanging off! It felt odd to get off and low on a bike. Now it feels odd to be on top of the bike when cornering.

The biggest thing to stress when cornering is you must be relaxed! Trust me, I fight this more than anything. When I am relaxed it just flows and feels right. The bike turns so easily, the knee touches down with ease, I carry more corner speed. If the bike feels like it won’t steer, it doesn’t snap over quickly, handling feels “off” when leaned over, your arms feel tired when returning to the pits…guess what? You have the death grip on your handles. Keith Code describes this problem very well in his book Twist of the Wrist II. I can vouch he’s telling the truth too!

So I recommend, to help solve your problem, is buy Keith Code’s and Lee Park’s books mentioned above, read them, and then consider which training class best fits your personality. I went with Lee Park’s class first because it was low threat. Meaning I was more comfortable learning how to hang off at 35 mph then 60 to 80 mph. Glad I did. Made my NESBA track days go easier. In addition, I taught my buddy Jeff what I learned, in a parking lot, and his butt is way faster than me LOL! He can vouch the Lee Parks exercises work. And we still practice in the DMV parking lot to this date. As stated, the NESBA Control Riders are very helpful, but it is really good to have a foundation BEFORE you go to the track. And if ‘speed’ doesn’t bother you for learning in, by all means start with Keith Code’s school. God willing, I’ll be attending level 1 spring 2010!

Hope this helps.

BZ

[betarace]

here is a free "archive" from the California Superbike School forum of articles written by Keith Code that may be helpful. If you are into being a better rider (street or track) I strongly advise attending a school, it's life changing.

Cornering Forum -> Articles


specific to your question:
Knuckle To Knee—dragging - Cornering Forum

[Sebspeed]

Who needs a track? (just kidding, of course!)

[betarace]

awesome! love that pic

[douglasthecook]

I also do track days on my VFR, and have found some useful tips that might assist you as well. Try to get your elbow below your wrist, as this will help pull you down. Also I try to lean off the bike in a manner that is described above, (right titty on left of tank), or try to put your head where your mirror was if you took it off for the track day. Another thing you can do is practice your body position between sessions. I will put my bike on the stand and practice my side-to-side transitions. This was very helpful this year at Valencia, as there are a few corners that definitely have you going back and forth across the bike. Also move your feet to the outside of the pegs, ball of foot on tip of peg, as this gives you more leverage on the pegs. Get pics from the track day and compare them to professional riders, as this will help you see what you're doing correctly and incorrectly. I think that's all I have for now, but hopefully this helps a little!!!

[soundmaster31]

Originally Posted by sullyvfr

Wow! I really appreciate your time guys. There was an instructor and I understand why you should be on the balls of your feet. I was wearing my suit and boots for the first time. Since I have always ridin on the street, my foot placement was always off the balls of my feet.

I need to get used to the feel of the boots. It seems that when I am on the balls of my feet, it is an unusual feeling and a far reach for the clutch. I will watch the videos and keep practicing as well as condition my legs (quads) to make the body shift smoother.

Thanks again guys and keep the tips coming if you think of any more!

Sully

Yeah, once you get on the ball of your foot and can rotate your foot position so bending your knee outward actually feels natural then it's gravy from there.

Take your boots and leathers out on the street. Get them broken in and get used to them. If the leather is sticking maybe try some conditioning ream or mink oil or something

Originally Posted by Bubba Zanetti

So your question was about “leaning into curves”. For me, I was taught/ trained to get off the bike and into position way BEFORE the turn. So coming into a turn I’m actually pressing on the opposite grip so the bike isn’t trying to fall into the turn ....

EXACTLY. Me too. Like anything in life, planing and well thought out setup are what allows anything to go smoothly...including taking a curve on a motorcycle.

Originally Posted by Bubba Zanetti

It feels very foreign when you first are learning to hang off. But now, I hate cornering without hanging off! It felt odd to get off and low on a bike. Now it feels odd to be on top of the bike when cornering.

I am the same way!!!!

Originally Posted by Bubba Zanetti

The biggest thing to stress when cornering is you must be relaxed!

Very good advice about everything Bubba Zanetti!!!

[willy]

Thats a great picture of the VFR leaned waaay over....if he's not crashing, he would be if he were turning right...

I had a pretty good track ride today and managed to avoid crashing. kind of getting the hanging off thing and had my knee on the deck consistently in my better corners. During my best session I was going incredibly well and was...in the zone...that is; until I entered the front straight and rolled on...and at 100-110 mph a freakin' very rotund groundhog suddenly ran in front of me and I killed him with a center mass hit...I really expected something bad to happen but the VFR rolled over him like buttah. probably helpful I really didnt have time to get on the brakes so the bike was pretty nuetral. Needless to say, that kind of broke my concentration for the session and after that the 90 degree temps started to take their toll on my brain pan. I'll post pics of my new and improved leanings as they become available.

I'm sort of toying with the idea of racing the VFR once or twice just because I know I wouldnt be last...pretty sure turkey baster pan is all the belly pan ui'd need

[02 VFR Rider]

do not worry about hanging off and dragging your knee, work on picking good lines, corner entry and exit.
as you improve in this area the next thing you know you will be dragging your knee on the ground.
If you focus only on dragging your knee you will just hold your progress up.
relax have fun and enjoy.

[klee27x]

I'm not particularly fast, but here's my 2 cents:

Head position is a big thing for me. If I'm trying to peer around the corner, I naturally want to keep my head up and out to get the best angle. Bringing it down and in feels dangerous, unless I'm familiar with the corner. Dunno if that's a truism, or it's just me.

To me, it looks like your head is way up and out. When you get your head down and in, you can get the outside elbow snugged against the tank. This is the single most important thing for me. Because once that happens, it frees up my hands and wrists for steering, rather than holding my upper body position. In this position, I feel like I have the most pure steering feel/control over any other time on a bike. (Any other time, a change in steering moves your body, which moves the bars, etc etc. They're inseparable events, which results in some degree of tension.) I supposed you might also get this feeling if your chest were glued to the tank. This is a good tradeoff for the very slightly narrower angle of vision.

Also, on bikes like the VFR, the pegs are way farther back then some of the modern racy bikes. So depending on your height, if you want to get the proper leg angle for knee-down, you might have to move your weight back a little to get your haunches over the peg. I'm 5'11", and I feel like I'm too short to get a really aggressive knee-down position on the VFR while keeping my weight where I like it.

[jay956]

Originally Posted by sullyvfr

Wow! I really appreciate your time guys. There was an instructor and I understand why you should be on the balls of your feet. I was wearing my suit and boots for the first time. Since I have always ridin on the street, my foot placement was always off the balls of my feet.

I need to get used to the feel of the boots. It seems that when I am on the balls of my feet, it is an unusual feeling and a far reach for the clutch. I will watch the videos and keep practicing as well as condition my legs (quads) to make the body shift smoother.

Thanks again guys and keep the tips coming if you think of any more!



Sully

you have a foot activated clutch?

[GreyVF750F]

When your on the balls of your feet. You then support your body with your legs. NOT your ass on the seat. Puts all your weight way down low on the pegs where it belongs. Now you can booble the bike back and forth underneath you any time you want with little effort.

You can practice this way to get the feel. It works.

[Bubba Zanetti]

Originally Posted by soundmaster31

Yeah, once you get on the ball of your foot and can rotate your foot position so bending your knee outward actually feels natural then it's gravy from there.

Take your boots and leathers out on the street. Get them broken in and get used to them. If the leather is sticking maybe try some conditioning ream or mink oil or something





EXACTLY. Me too. Like anything in life, planing and well thought out setup are what allows anything to go smoothly...including taking a curve on a motorcycle.





I am the same way!!!!




Very good advice about everything Bubba Zanetti!!!

I only know the above because it's what I have problems with LOL!

[willy]

"do not worry about hanging off and dragging your knee, work on picking good lines, corner entry and exit.
as you improve in this area the next thing you know you will be dragging your knee on the ground.
If you focus only on dragging your knee you will just hold your progress up.
relax have fun and enjoy"

Thanks. Yeah, I understand the fact that knee down is secondary to most things, but on a bike with tall bars and a fat tank, it's a refletion also of how flexable my 45 year old body is... I'm actually most concerned with getting a 500 pound bike to turn while also not high siding it again or having to replace the pipe where it's getting a bit worn-the track I'm mainly riding at has about 7 right hand turns and two lefts. The more I get myself off the bike and my chest on the right of the tank, off, the less stuff drags on the ground. I have to admit that the little red spots the local racing school painted o n the track have pretty well made finding the right lines a no brainer... I was running the advanced group and really keeping up with real sport bikes surprisingly well, but only catching and passing SV650s for the most part.

[Cardiackid]

2 thumbs up for the Lee Parks Total Control courses and his book. Gives you great information on body position VISION, and turn point selection and method. The combination of Total Control and Twist the wrist should be sound foundation of information to put into practice.

Al

[willy]

The pics of last thursday's track day are posted. S...o I was hoping...for cooler pics of me...'cause it's all about me! these are not as cool as i pictured they would be myself...a common problem for me!

To be fair to myself, since I can see light under the pipe and foot peg and knee, i'm pretty sure these were done early in the day before i started going better, but I had hoped my habit off getting my upper body up above the bike dirt track style would be gone by now. I don't look super comfortable, thats for sure.

In the last photos I can see my improvement over the course of the morning so all is not lost. it was freakin' 90 degrees F and after 5 sessions, I was all done, so skipped my last two...thus bringing down the photo count...and of course, I was hoping for a photo of me killing the ground hog!

Oh well. doing another track day on wendesday(my 4th this month, and hopefully second non raining event).

GRON4 Photo Viewer

[squirrelman]

Knees -down is a dangerous way to go in street riding cuz it generally means you're going way fast.

ALSO, the farther you're hung off the bike, the more you are committed to a predetermined line and the less able to make any sudden correction in line that might be needed to avoid road situations.

So, for street riding, keep your weight no more than one buttcheek off center and forget about knee acrobatics.

[Bubba Zanetti]

Good advice s-man, but willy has been talking about the track.

BZ

[Jaelum]

Originally Posted by willy

The pics of last thursday's track day are posted. S...o I was hoping...for cooler pics of me...'cause it's all about me! these are not as cool as i pictured they would be myself...a common problem for me!

GRON4 Photo Viewer

Nice pictures! Thanks for taking the time to post them and share your track experience - I'm jealous

One question that I have from looking at the pics - how far through the corner are you looking? From the photos I can't get a good feel for the depth of the corners, but in most of them you seem to be looking a bit ahead, but not really deep into the corner.

The three things that really improved my cornering more than anything was learning to look deep into the turn (as in, at turn-in I'm looking just past apex, and as I approach apex I'm looking past the exit), pre-positioning my body before the curve (as someone above summarized very well), and turning my hips into the curve (a verifiable result of having your feet and upper-body in the correct position).

Cheers!

[willy]

Originally Posted by Jaelum

Nice pictures! Thanks for taking the time to post them and share your track experience - I'm jealous

One question that I have from looking at the pics - how far through the corner are you looking? From the photos I can't get a good feel for the depth of the corners, but in most of them you seem to be looking a bit ahead, but not really deep into the corner.

The three things that really improved my cornering more than anything was learning to look deep into the turn (as in, at turn-in I'm looking just past apex, and as I approach apex I'm looking past the exit), pre-positioning my body before the curve (as someone above summarized very well), and turning my hips into the curve (a verifiable result of having your feet and upper-body in the correct position).

Cheers!

funny you ask. while this particular track (blackhawk farms) is kind of a motocross course compared to some, I would say you are right, that I am riding the front wheel. yesterday I went to yet another track day and had some problems/regression in my 1st couple sessions.

I, along with some others slid in debris on the outside of one of the corners, plus it was about 50 degrees, which also subtracted from my confidence. In an attempt to hug the rumble strips and avoid going wide in the slippery turn, plus a sudden fear that I would high side the bike by sticking the pipe, I basically forgot everything I knew and also started really riding the front wheel....I meant to miss the rumble strips by a few inches and because I was looking at them, starting actually hitting them instead...Not good! fortunatley, after my second session, a control rider came up to me and said " You look really tense out there" and advised me to look further out and through the corners and also to "breath in through your nose and out through your mouth". this was his only advice, but it was super helpful to bring me back to where i wasn't defeating myself mentally. After that I went pretty darn good...the best yet, and probably faster than I ever went when I was racing there in 200-2001.

So yeah, looking way out to where you want to be at the end of the corner instead of inspecting the pavement 30 feet in front of me was good!

[willy]

Originally Posted by squirrelman

Knees -down is a dangerous way to go in street riding cuz it generally means you're going way fast.

ALSO, the farther you're hung off the bike, the more you are committed to a predetermined line and the less able to make any sudden correction in line that might be needed to avoid road situations.

So, for street riding, keep your weight no more than one buttcheek off center and forget about knee acrobatics.

Thanks...I think. Yeah, I'm not a knee on the street guy if for no other reason that a bot's dot could really hurt!

Besides, I prefer backing my V Strom into corners like scotty parker. That way, any mid corner gravel only reduces the effort needed to get the bike loose.

[John451]

Originally Posted by willy

The pics of last thursday's track day are posted. S...o I was hoping...for cooler pics of me...'cause it's all about me! these

GRON4 Photo Viewer

So weird seeing semi naked Gen 6.

[willy]

I recall suddenly that ive really hi jacked this thread from it's author!

...might as well re name it the willy's track day angst thread

I wonder if i'm regressing...it felt so good but looks so..not good.

pic number nine is cool though!

looks like i'm laying a blackie. here: GRON4 Photo Viewer

with the preload adjusters all the way in I had almost 50mm of sag and my zip tie was all the way up at the clamp after each session indicating bottoming, probably while on the brakes. I think a lot of my ground clearence issues will be helped by fork springs. I did notice that the shock seemed about right on sag and rebound until after each session...where heat turned it into a pogo stick. I was thnking this bike was realy limiting me, but I saw a guy on a 1989 NT650 carrying more corner speed than almost anyone and also nearly lapped me. I think i'll get springs and a better shock and keep riding this thing till it routinely ties itself in knots d/t ecessive speed, then i'll buy a triump 675. ...after which, I hope to drag my elbows!