2002 Starting Trouble

Discussion in 'Mechanics Garage' started by bobr, Feb 7, 2003.

  1. bobr

    bobr New Member

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    Hi everyone,

    I wanted to find out if anyone else is having starting problems with their 2002 VFR? The bike doesn't like to keep running when it is cold out... it will start then die after a second or two. It has been taking anywhere from 2-5 restarts to keep it running. My local shop hasn't got a clue what is wrong. Any ideas?

    Thanks, :)

    Bob
    2002 VFR - 665 miles
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    What octane gas are you running. If you are running high octane it will make it harder to start in the cold and start in general.

    try running a lower octane. I'm not sure what is recommended for the 02 VFR but I know 87 is recommended for my 00 VFR. Lower octane ignites easier. Try it. ;)
     
  3. bobr

    bobr New Member

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    Kirk,

    I am using 92 as recommended by Honda for the '02 bikes. I could try a lower octane and see what it does... thanks for the suggestion.
     
  4. Kirk

    Kirk New Member

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    92 is recommended for the 02 bikes?

    That surprises me, I would think Honda would make it the same. I have heard other 02 owners say they run 87.

    Don't take this wrong but are you sure? ???
     
  5. bobr

    bobr New Member

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    I will have to check the owners manual again, but I do remember seeing that number in there somewhere. I'll post again once I have the final answer.
     
  6. Kirk

    Kirk New Member

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    Bob,

    There are also things called Starter Valves or something (at least on my '00) that need to be synchronized like carbs. I am by no means a mechanic and assume they are still on the VTEC VFR. These could be out of synch causing the hard start condition.

    But I would most definatley assume its an octane issue.

    I had the same problem on my '00 and 89 octane gas cured it. I should probably try 87, but for some reason I don't.

    Kirk
     
  7. bobr

    bobr New Member

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    Kirk,

    I had the starter valves adjusted already... they are rather strange, a wax type compound on 3 of the 4 cylinders that helps to enrichen the injector circuit as needed when the bike is cold/hot. Not the best method in my opinion, but it appears to work. I will definitely give the lower octane gas a try.. probably tonight when I get the bike back from the shop (3rd time in).

    Thanks again for the reply... :)
     
  8. Kirk

    Kirk New Member

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    keep us posted,

    It always bothers me when I hear of a mechanic that wouldn't ask or suggest this as a problem. It seems pretty simple, of course I also had a Honda trained Technician not be able to figue out how to take off my rear tire. That crazy Single Sided Swingarm had him all confused. :eek:

    I had to go over and explain how to take lug nuts off to him... >:(

    There went my confidence in that shop.
     
  9. rshimmel

    rshimmel New Member

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    After thinking I was helping my machine by using higher octane fuel, I read a couple articles saying that if your manual says 87 octane then that's what your bike is set up for (particularly if it's a Honda) and to use 87, otherwise you could have ignition or cold starting probs. I never experienced those problems, but I did switch to regular in my 02 and it runs like a champ...
     
  10. eritnam

    eritnam New Member

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    During the first cool weather here in central texas, two freinds and I noticed hard starting on 3 carbed bikes. All would start then die, needing 3-5 restarts. 2 months later we have far easier starting even with lower temps. What is different now? Fuel vapor pressure and volatility. Gasoline is blended for lower volitility in warmer temps to reduce evaporative emissions, then higher volitility for colder temps for better starting, more needed on carbed engines. I think our early cold start problems were due to "summer" gas.
     
  11. bobr

    bobr New Member

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    Thanks to all for the replies. I am taking the VFR out this afternoon for an extended ride.. and of course some lower octane fuel as a test. I'll let everyone know how much of a difference this makes. Enjoy. :)

    Bob
     
  12. VFRBadger

    VFRBadger New Member

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    Had a somewhat similar problem with my '02. The regular gas 87 octane does help and so did about 3000 miles. As it got more miles it went to its fast idle quicker from a cold start. Now at 6000 mi+ it isnt as big as issue anymore. Back to hibernation, its -5F outside now.
     
  13. bobr

    bobr New Member

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    Ok, I read through the owners manual and all it says is "86 octane or higher". I ran a tank of 89 through the bike this weekend and to no avail, it took 3 attempts to keep it running this morning (~36°F outside). I will keep adding miles to the bike and hope that it will break in further and be able to adjust up to high idle faster when it is cold.

    Bob
     
  14. Jozef

    Jozef New Member

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    Purchased a 2002 V-TEC last year and did not have cold start problems last fall with low octane gas but 40 degrees was the lowest temperature that I went for a ride. When dealing with cold start problems such as the one posted here is that at 36 degrees it is considered by motorcycle manufacturers to be out of the range for normal use. In other words there may be no "fix" for the problem. 45 degrees is usually considered to be the low end for cold start problems to be "fixed." Often miles, which equates to wear on parts, allows for easier cold starting. As strange as it sounds the oil could be the culprit. Fuel injected bikes have a limited high idle (and some choke/carb bikes) that may not be able to overcome the drag on parts created by thick oil - again especially if the bike is fairly new. In this case the bike will keep stalling out untill the oil has moved around a little. This is especially true with motorcycle oils that follow the old SG rating as these are "stickier" the newer automotive type oils. In other words while it may be inconvenient for you, your bike is operating normally by stalling out.
     
  15. bobr

    bobr New Member

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    JozeF,

    Thanks for the response. When I first purchased the bike the weather was really nice (70-80°F) and the bike still had the starting problem. When it is really warm weather, it usually only takes 2 attempts to keep it running, unlike the 5 times it took last week. As for the extra drag provided by cold oil, that would indicate that the bike is on some sort of hairy-edge in it's tuning. The warranty is going to be up soon on the bike, I may just dig into myself at that point and see what I can find. :)
     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Higher octane is not recommended for the VFR. use 86 or 87.
    Mine starts like a champ in this michigan weather once in a while to keep the oil from draining completely to the pan.
     
  17. Jozef

    Jozef New Member

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    How does it run once you're underway? Do you have a definite flat spot in the lower rpm range, any bucking? I don't have a manual specific to the V-TEC but I checked on fuel injection systems. An O2 sensor has a limited effect at idle but it is there and it could be causing the computer to lean the mixture out to the point it won't idle. The pronounced flat spot and bucking are also side effects of an O2 sensor operating incorrectly but it may not be leaning it out enough for those effects to occur. Unfortunately when a mechanic/technician runs a check on the system the O2 sensor will show it's OK because all the check is is a go, no-go type of check to see if the sensor is sending a signal, not that it is sending the wrong signal. Only way to really check is with an exhaust analyzer, parts swap the sensors, or just disconnect them and see if the starting problem goes away. I prefer the last method myself. The pupose of an O2 sensor is to lean the mixture out so it can get through EPA because where it has the most effect 4000-5000rpm is where the EPA checks emissions at. That's why you see performance upgrades where they recommend O2 eliminators. Hope this helps.
     
  18. bobr

    bobr New Member

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    Yeah, the bike runs very well once it is running. The latest adjustment that the shop made has caused the bike to have a slight lope when it is cold, but as soon as you grab a bit of throttle it smoothes out and runs great. When the bike warms up the lope goes away and idles perfectly smooth. There are no flat spots in the rpm range... just the normal lack of torque at the very low end (from idle to about 3500rpm). I will have to disconnect the O2 sensor and see what that does to the starting problems.. thanks for the suggestion. One question though, shouldn't the O2 sensor be in open loop mode at startup anyway? Most of my experiences with O2's has shown that until the engine gets to an appropriate operating temperature that the computer is receiving a signal from the sensor that puts it into open loop or bypass mode. I haven't checked yet, but maybe this sensor has a built in heater that allows it to get to closed loop (normal operation) faster.

    Thanks again for the response. :)
     
  19. Jozef

    Jozef New Member

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    You're right about the O2 sensors, they shouldn't be working at start up or at that low of rpm. The problem is they are in the circuit. I had this happen, not on a Honda, where the engine would idle great but when you gave it throttle nothing would happen. Turned out that the O2 sensor was in the loop and would signal the ECU to lean out the fuel to the point the engine wouldn't gain rpm. In this case it was even worse as it was intermittant. Usually when I was trying to get across an intersection. A diagnostic check of the system said the O2 sensor was fine. Replaced the sensor, after many shop visits, and the problem was gone. The 02 sensor is about the last simple solution that I can think of.
     
  20. Tim_Singer

    Tim_Singer New Member

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    :( I feel your pain, you are not alone. The problem I have is identical in the morning. The colder the worse it gets. The gas I run is 94 octane Chevron. I've tried 89 but it doesn't seem to make a difference. The dealer always thinks I'm crazy when I bring any of my two problems up. Too bad they don't seem to be overly concerned. Good luck.
     
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