start->won't start->start..weird!

Discussion in 'Mechanics Garage' started by theflea2003, Apr 13, 2009.

  1. theflea2003

    theflea2003 New Member

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    Hi all,

    first want to say how great this site is. very well organised and lots of useful info. Hats off!

    Ok..my problem! Hope someone might know:

    Have read lots of articles on the r/r issue and I think i might have the same problem but I'm not 100% sure of the symptoms.

    Own a 2000 5th gen. No problems to date. Took her out of winter storage about 4 weeks back. Been riding once a week. No problems. Went riding today (hott(ish) weather 25°). Stopped for a coffee. Jumped back on. She wouldn't start. Sounded like the battery had died.

    Bump started her. Got her going. Rode about 10km and she died again. Tried electrically starting her. Just heard "click click click" around the battery area. Engine didn't turn over at all. Headlights worked fine so think battery is ok. One thing i noticed: Each time I pressed the starter it reset the clock and trip!?!

    So bump started her yet again. Made it home. She ran fine and didn't die. Had my dinner and went back down to see if she would start electro style!..she did! WTF!

    So my question: Are these the common symptoms of the r/r issue I have heard all about or is it something else!?

    Cheers all,
    G
     
  2. crustyrider

    crustyrider New Member

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    you ahve a gremlin... check you voltage when this happens.. that means you gotta carry a meter with you. check the volage from the RR Not sure what its supposed to be but someone on here knows..good luck
     
  3. theflea2003

    theflea2003 New Member

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    do you think its the r/r issue?
     
  4. drewl

    drewl Insider

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    It could just be the battery. The fact that the panel resets when cranked leads me to think it is. Have it tested.
     
  5. masonv45

    masonv45 New Member

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    I second the battery. Have it load tested.
     
  6. theflea2003

    theflea2003 New Member

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    Ok guys. Thanks for the info. So today I took out my multimeter and checked it.

    Initial V : 11.8
    At Idle: 12.8 -13.0
    At 5000rpm: < 13.5 > 13.0

    So something is defo up! Its clearly not getting a charge.

    Noticed that the battery looks a bit old and worn out.

    My question:

    Could a poor battery be the cause of it not getting a charge (i.e. >14v not visible on the multimeter)? Or should the charge always be visible regardless if the battery is defect or not?


    If its not the battery I'm not sure where next to look. Most probs the R/R me thinks!

    Cheers.
     
  7. josercoaster

    josercoaster New Member

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    Location:
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    Check the Stator AC measurements.

    Could be batt, RR or Stator.

    A bad batt could not take charge, but rule out the charging system first.
     
  8. karazy

    karazy New Member

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    I think the charging voltage should be visible. It does appear that yours is a little low, but so is your initial. I think that the R/R may be good enough to maintain a, properly charged, serviceable battery. I suggest that you charge the battery, so that it reads above 12.5V and see if it can maintain it.

    http://vfrworld.com/forums/mechanics-garage/22098-my-charging-results.html

    This is why most people use some type of battery tender, over the winter. I just used a 5 watt solar panel ($10). It helps to extend the life of the battery.
     
  9. soundmaster31

    soundmaster31 New Member

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    I'd say so. One or a couple of the cells could have gone bad or dried up.
     
  10. TOE CUTTER

    TOE CUTTER Mullet Man

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    Battery

    I would not go a step further without a new battery they are not too expensive and are just barely large enough to get the job done in the first place.If it has age issues you should replace to keep it from leaving you stranded down the road.:thumbsup:
     
  11. theflea2003

    theflea2003 New Member

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    Thanks guys. Much appreciated. I'll head to my local mechanic and stick a new battery and test it first before buying with the multimeter. If it aint the battery i'll be back soon to ask more questions!

    Cheers
     
  12. theflea2003

    theflea2003 New Member

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    ok so I took her out for a road test today with my multimeter at hand!

    Results:

    First Start this morning: No problem
    Drove 10km with headlights on. Stopped. Turned her off.
    Tried starting. NOTHING!..dead again
    Off: 11.4v (I think that's weird because 11.4v should be enough to start her?)
    Tried starting: dropped to 4v and no start
    Full lights (still off): 11.4v->11v->all the way to 10v
    Jump started: idle: 11.5v
    @500rpm: < 13.0v
    Full lights (idling): kept dropping all the way to 10v
    Started to make my way home-> both needles stopped working and engine tried to cut out!?!
    Immeditaly killed the headlights->needles came back to life and she drove fine all the way home!?!
    Final result as of writing: Dead again!

    Must be a defect battery...right!?

    Cheers
    G
     
  13. karazy

    karazy New Member

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    It takes 6-8 hours to fully charge a dead battery. If you didn't charge it before the test, you have wasted your time. All you've really proven is that the battery is not charged.
     
  14. 199q

    199q New Member

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    also remember, the charging system will not easily charge a dead or really low battery.

    to test the battery, fully charge at 2 amps, then perform the following test:

    With a voltmeter test:

    key on lights on, should be 12.5v or above and slowly drop. should only drop .1 - .2 in a few minutes

    While starting the bike, should not be below 11.5v.


    if you fail these tests the battery is not long for this world. you might not have a ton of voltage because the charging system is not strong, and if the battery is dead, the whole system will work at max to get the battery back up. if you are thinking about this, measure it the voltage at the battery terminals, then go for a 5 to 10 minute ride, then measure the voltage. if the voltage is higher then your battery was low.

    be wary of automotive battery testers. they don't test a battery at the low amount of amp hours that a motorcycle battery has compared to a car battery.

    let us know what happens!

    Edit::

    if you don't have a battery charger; get one!

    this is the one I have

    http://store.boatandrvaccessories.com/f042.html

    works well and I can use it for my boat and for my jeep too. but be sure to not charge above 2 amps for a small motorcycle battery, it will boil the battery and you will have a bad battery.

    your problem might very well be a R/R problem, but test the battery first.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2009
  15. theflea2003

    theflea2003 New Member

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    latest results:
    Fully charged battery (12.88v)
    Idle with lights off (12.3~12.6v)
    Idle with lights on (rapid drop to 11.4v~11.8v)
    engine OFF after:10 mins riding and riding with lights on (12.2v)
    @5000rpm: fluctuating wildly and never getting to 14v
    engine OFF after:10 mins riding and riding with lights off (12.9v)

    Whats going on!? Now I don't think it the battery! Having the lights on seems to be the culprit. Any ideas?

    Cheers
     
  16. theflea2003

    theflea2003 New Member

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    Ok..just read this snippet from the following article here


    The exact same symptoms I have!


    And after this morning's test results I am 99% the R/R is the final culprit!!

    So..unless someone has a strong case against the culprit being the R/R!..I will order a new 1 tomorrow (€99 :eek:) Or can someone persuade we otherwise :wink:

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2009
  17. 199q

    199q New Member

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    looks like new R/R for sure there. you should have a better voltage than that with the lights on and bike running. before you get a new one consider a new one from a R1 or a CBR. these can be had for much cheaper (30-40$ American) on ebay, and due to their mosfet style, instead of shunt FCR type work much cooler, and have much more consistent voltage. check out the sites listed below for more reading before you buy anything. always helps to have a good knowledge of the problem before fixing, even if you decide to go with the stock R/R :thumbsup:

    if you use a R1, or CBR mosfet type, be sure to note that these need an external ground. either bolt to the frame and/or ground with a external wire. Be sure that if you just bolt it to the frame you are getting a good ground there too! Be sure that it has an extra external ground, this will fry it really fast if you dont have it there. dont ask me how i know! :mad:

    none of them pertain to a VFR, but a R/R is a R/R. This is what I have found in travels to be some of the better information. I am an engineer so some of it might be a bit technical, but is all good reading none the less!

    This one is my favorite (really explains the difference between types of R/R very well):

    Rectifier/Regulator Upgrade - Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums


    sv650_vrr_upgrade

    Voltage Regulator Upgrade - Suzuki SV650 Forum: SV650, SV1000, Gladius Forums

    Firestorm / SuperHawk (VTR1000F) Regulator Rectifier Modification

    and the infamous computer fan cooler mod:

    R/R cooler mod


    good luck! let us know what happens! and if you have any more questions please let us know!
     
  18. 199q

    199q New Member

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    also what is your voltage while the bike is turning over?

    this will tell you if the battery is also bad. (i say also because it certainly looks like the R/R is bad)

    unfortunately, one of the stator, R/R, or battery goes bad, and they can easily take out the whole system. but usually its either the battery or R/R

    also check out this guy:

    http://wiremybike.com/index.php?cPath=1&osCsid=44a2148a778ce16cc0a893b325038d25

    he has some good stuff and its made just for the VFR
     
  19. theflea2003

    theflea2003 New Member

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    Great info..thanks. A little bit technical alright but some useful info. Not sure if I will go for the stock unit or try a mod from another bike. Seems the stock it simply..well..easier. Plug 'n' play so to speak! I'll sleep on it though!

    Cheers
     
  20. 199q

    199q New Member

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    no problem! I agree it is much easier to get a factory one, less complicated but more expensive route, although the R1 / CBR RR is a much better unit. the last website I posted up had some info on a new R/R, and plug n play wiring. (wiremybike.com) you can buy a harness and a R/R that will just plug in, no crimping or any other problems to deal with.

    I can understand the want to keep it all clean, I cant blame you!

    my bike is 23 years old and has about 100K miles now, so remaining stock is not really a main concern of mine! :biggrin:

    if you go to a different R/R and I think there is a specific write up on mounting locations and other items for your year bike. if you decide to do this, let me know and I will dig around for it.

    good luck I hope this helps!
     
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