Use of Rotella T in motorcycles.... no bueno

Discussion in 'Mechanics Garage' started by Lazy in AZ, Oct 1, 2010.

  1. Lazy in AZ

    Lazy in AZ New Member

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    ummmm.... OK, so I basically had my ass handed to me on a silver platter last night during a presentation from a representative of Royal Purple that was doing a seminar on Oil Viscosity & Application at the school. I went there mainly to pose this question to them regarding shearing and Rotella T's comparison to other "motorcycle oils"....

    I should have kept my mouth shut:biggrin:

    Basically I was told this:

    Rotella T, although popular for use in motorcycles and other gas engines, is designed for diesel engines only and does not have the proper additives to keep a gas engine running smoothly during it's normally recommended lifetime.

    "Rotella T, at any grade, is detrimental to the gear driven cam systems due to it's lack of durability in dealing with shearing at the gears",

    which explains why when I drop the oil after 5k miles it comes out 'not thick' and not as dark as regular oils... because it's been sheared thin and all of the contaminants that normally flow with the oil are sitting in deposits on the bottom of the case or other low points of the engine.

    The use of Rotella T in motorcycles derives from its ability to help seat rings and cams in newly custom built engines, and was originally used for a maximum of 1500 miles, but usually only about 4-600 miles and then switched back to a normal motorcycle oil.

    Shearing, as it was explained to me (especially with the VFR's, RC 51's, and Ducati's)
    occurs when the oil is spliced at the gears and reduced at the molecular level. Motorcycle oils all have an additive that prevents this. Another way to accomplish shearing is to overheat the engine. Each time oil is overheated (above 255) it's life is reduced by half. So, if you overheat your engine twice and are running conventional oil, you must replace the oil. If you don't, your practically running water in your oil pan. Royal Purple, I am told, is the only oil on the market that has a proprietary additive blend that prevents half life from overheating, and has virtually a 0% shear factor.

    Motorcycle oils are specifically designed with higher zinc levels and special additives to prevent viscosity breakdown and shearing associated with them that normal gas engines do not expose the oil to. Also, as of 2011 the EPA has mandated that gas engine oils reduce the amount of zinc allowed to be added to regular oil to 600 ppm from the 1200 that is used now. Motorcycle oils generally need closer to 1500 ppm to function properly during their lifespan.

    The recommended oil usage, as per the speaker, for motorcycles is to run a new bike with the mfg provided oil for 600 miles, then change the oil and filter to a high grade motorcycle oil and filter that has a 25 micron or less rating and a 95% or better efficiency. The brand doesn't matter, but the grade must match that which is in the owners manual (the mfg designs each bike to run on certain viscosities, changing that viscosity with affect the performance of the engine and also increase the wear on the parts).

    Use of high grade oils (Royal Purple)and filters (Amsoil has a 1 micron rated filter) will yield 8-12k miles between oil changes, whereas use of cheap oils and filters with less than 30 micron/90% efficiency will result in more frequent oil changes and service (2500-3500 miles). Although the initial price is higher, running Royal Purple in your engine will cost you the same amount of money in the end. --- $6/bottle and changed at 3K miles or $15/bottle changed at 8k miles.

    I'll be the first to admit that I was wrong on this matter, simply because I didn't know myself and was led to follow the advice of multiple mechanics who were being led by others practicing the use of Rotella T in motorcycles without knowing the facts. I, like many other people, have simply gotten lucky by not having any damage done to my vehicles over the past 9 years... at least, no damage that I'm aware of - basically because I haven't pulled any of the engines apart and seen what the valves, cams and pistons actually looked like.

    I will make this statement... I am going to drop the oil that I have in the VFR now (Rotella T 15w40) and have it analyzed to see what has happened to it with the 3k miles it has on it now. Then I'm purchasing 3 qts of Royal Purple and an Amsoil filter. I'll run that for 3k miles as well, analyze it and replace it with the same. From what I'm told, the comparison will shock the hell out of me and I'll never go back to conventional oils again.

    Royal Purple motorcyle oil has a life expectancy of 12k miles with a recommended change at 8k miles. They also recommend changing the filter per mfg ratings (3k miles or so) and simply topping off the oil level, unless using a high grade filter such as Amsoil's.

    Questions.... comments?
     
  2. 02 VFR Rider

    02 VFR Rider New Member

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    I use T as well and never had issuses and this is coming from a royal purple rep. Do you expect him to sell shell oil.
    I would think that if it had a negitive affect on the cam gears it would be the same for transmission gears, I have never heard of a tranny failure with using shell rotella T.
    I look forward to you reporting back to see what you come up with when you compare the 2 oils.
    untill then I will continue to use the "T"
     
  3. Davis5g

    Davis5g New Member

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    I use the rotella synthetic in my rotary engined rx7 and my viffer. As far as the shearing is concerned... a large number of diesel engines have gear driven cams and injection pumps...
     
  4. Bubba Zanetti

    Bubba Zanetti Member

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    Do the test and post results.

    BZ
     
  5. invisible cities

    invisible cities New Member

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    Thank you for the post.

    On this topic, what you thoughts are on switching from a petroleum based oil to a synthetic oil in a vintage V-Four engine.

    Once petroleum, always petroleum?
     
  6. Dukiedook

    Dukiedook New Member

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    Sorry Lazy, this coming from a Royal Purple People Eater person makes me not believe it. If you want to really test your theory send samples from your bike of both to Blackstone and we'll see if the Purple Barney dude is full of shit or not.

    I have testimony from more than a few SOHC CB riders that use Rotella syn. on their bikes for the last however many years and not one clutch slip or problem from their bikes. And CB's are harder on their oil than viffers since they don't have radiators.

    Rotella synthetic is MA rated, what does purple peter man have to say about that?
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2010
  7. Comicus

    Comicus New Member

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    This might actually be a useful oil thread once the results are in. Lazy I can't wait to see what you come up with.
    :cheersaf:
     
  8. horseiron1

    horseiron1 New Member

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    I work at a oil blending bottling company and I tested Royal Purple and the result was 28% zinc phosphate. Which is good for older car engines but I wouldn't think so in modern V4 engines with the transmission and clutch using the same oil. I'll see if I can find my test results.
     
  9. ricko2

    ricko2 New Member

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    probably if Rotella put on he class, they would prove their stuff is better. I sell and run the Amsoil synthetic and their filter. Not going to say its better than Royal Purple, but it most definitely not worse. I don't believe the 8k to 12k intervals though. I change one a year, no matter how many miles.
     
  10. slowbird

    slowbird Member

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    I have heard about Rotella's poor shearing qualities before.....though I am unsure if Rotella T6 is better or not. Their website says it is.

    I have read on BITOG and other forums where Motorcyclists have noticed some foaming in their oil after hard riding.

    I look forward to your results AZ. I will be doing an oil analysis soon on my 2nd Gen with Motul Semi Synth.
     
  11. Lazy in AZ

    Lazy in AZ New Member

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    there is no problem going back and forth. Conventional and Synthetics will work substitionally or combined (blended).
     
  12. Lazy in AZ

    Lazy in AZ New Member

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    Just curious which grade of oil you were testing that on? What is the PPM equivelant to that percentage of zinc?
     
  13. Lazy in AZ

    Lazy in AZ New Member

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    I know that RP people are going to flaunt their product, but I've heard lots of arguments over the years about Mobil 1, Rotella, Shell, and even the old Slick 50 crap thats still on the shelves here and there. Most of those arguments were from reps that were promoting the products, and I've got to say that not only did the RP guy know his facts, but he also backed it up in writing. None of the other companies did that.

    Bottom line, the analyzing will tell the true story...

    we'll see.....


    *And thanks for the responses! Not trying to sell Royal Purple to you guys at all. I just know that lots of us use Rot T and I wanted to give a heads up. As I said... 9 yrs of solid use myself.
     
  14. Squamish VFR

    Squamish VFR New Member

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    I have two things to say about this issue: one is that if you change to synth from mineral on an older engine the seals will likley leak, if they do you can fix the leak or switch back to Dino oil. The other is this 1 micron oil filter, putting such a fine filter is not recommended as it will just plug and go into by pass (hopefully). I'm not certain what micron is recommended for a VFR but fuel primary filters take it to 10 micron. I doubt you'd need to go that fine for engine oil.

    Looking forward to the results of the oil tests. Just be carefull not to get into splitting hairs, I mean our bikes get 100K miles+ what more do we need?
     
  15. Dukiedook

    Dukiedook New Member

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    No kidding these bikes regularly get 100K+ on regular moto dino oil, ANY synthetic with an MA rating would improve on that.
     
  16. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    Ah, the great oil debate continues anew. If you'd all just quit fucking around and trying to be cheap, you'd run Amsoil. Then you would know that you were running the best thing available. I'm no chemical engineer like the rest of you, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last week.....


    .......
     
  17. Kobe Diesel

    Kobe Diesel New Member

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    The worst oil for your engine? Is no oil at all. Just pour in your favorite oil at the correct volume of specified weight-viscosity index and be done with it.

    Shear qualities for Rotella not up to par?
    Let's see, I operate and maintain 3 medium speed diesel engines w/ 6 cylinder, 210cm bore, gear driven camshaft and ancillaries, and rated for 1000kW output. The Rotella holds up pretty damn good. The only thing that ruins the oil is fuel dilution from leakage around the barrells in the injection pumps. Why do we use Shell lubes at my job? Because the Shell Lube Sales Rep gave the best bottom line price to the technical superintendent. And for all I know, took him out for a steak dinner followed by strippers and blow. Next year, the ExxonMobil guy will come in with a better offer, and tickle the guy's fancy with some 'entertainment' - It's business, nothing technical at all, other than the fact that the engines can't run without oil, that's the extent of it.

    Please stop this oil non-sense.
    Admins, please remove future "engine oil" threads! I beg you!
     
  18. mestoo

    mestoo New Member

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    Lazy:

    Oh dear; where to begin?

    Full disclosure: I'm not a tribologist (lubrication, bearings, and wear engineer) but I've spent 38 years as a helicopter test engineer frequently hanging out with them as we tested helicopter drivetrains (using both mineral and sythetic oils).

    1. "Rotella is designed for diesel engines only" - yet it meets gasoline engine API specifications SH, SL, SM, and JASO bike spec MA. The concept that life in a gas engine is more severe than a diesel engine belongs in the land between falacious and ludicrous. Rotella is an outsanding oil.

    2. "Royal Purple is the only oil on the market that has the proprietary additive blendthat prevents half life from overheating." How could the Honda engineers be so incredibly stupid to design an engine that would only survive on Royal Purple and then so monumentally lucky to have their engines set the industry standard for reliability and longevity when not using Royal Purple? The answer is they didn't. They analyzed and tested to assure excellent life with oils conforming to their requirements spec.

    3. "Engines with gear driven cams will shear an oil to death in minutes/seconds/100 miles". (OK; that's paraphrasing but more or less what they said.) The cam drive is one or two additional gear meshes the oil lubricates. At least as much shearing is going on in the transmission with it's bundle of gears. Note: it's the viscosity index improvers (VII) that get sheared. Thus an oil that starts out as a 10W-40 will get beaten down to a 10W-30, then a 10W-20 if used past its useful life. The good thing about synthetics is that they need far fewer VIIs so they are less vulnerable to shear degradation. Hence we change our oil at a reasonable interval, the more compulsive of us send samples to a lab to assure that the used oil was still in spec vicosity range when it was retired.

    4. The worry about going back and forthe between mineral and synthetic base oils is becoming overcome by events. Most oils marketed as synthetic in the US new are mostly group III mineral oils. Amsoil is a true synthetic poly-alpha-olefin base, Redline is a sythetic polyesther base; most other "synthetics" are primarily group III with a small blend of PAO or diesther. Thus the question of seal leakage (it was an issue back in 1973) is probably overrated now. Also, group III mineral oil is really good stuff; the performance distinction between a group III mineral oil and a PAO or diesther is nebulous.

    5. I'd avoid 15W-anything oil unless you live in a periennially warm climate. 5W and 10W oils really do flow better at lower temperatures. Remember, to your engine, room temperature is "cold". Unless we're talking about something like a 1964 air cooled Norton on old low quality oil, most of your engine wear will be on cold start-up.

    6. You are right on about getting your oil tested. That's the way to cut through the BS and deal with facts.

    Good luck and please post the results of your oil sampling.
     
  19. invisible cities

    invisible cities New Member

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    Great post mestoo, thank you.

    If I could ask, what would be your motor oil recommendation for the chain driven cam VF500F engines ('84-'86)?

    Thx
     
  20. Comicus

    Comicus New Member

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    Or you could just go "hmm...another oil thread. I don't belive I will be taking part in this discussion because I can't take the non-sense."
    I personally find it hilarious about how up in arms people get over which oil to use. Let the debate rage on!!!

    Oh and I use Rotella. I have been completely satisfied for 17000 miles on the vfr and 5000 on the rc51(r.i.p.). That's all that matters to me.
     
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