Suspension upgrade recommendations / Shop in Los Angeles, Cerritos area

Discussion in '5th Generation 1998-2001' started by Spartacus, Jun 18, 2014.

  1. Spartacus

    Spartacus New Member

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    Hello, this is my first post. I own a 2001 VFR and I am looking for a good reasonable mechanic to perform general work but I am also interested in having my suspension worked on. I inquired with Catalyst Suspension in Orange and they quoted me around $1600 for a fork tune and Elka rear shock. This was sent to me via email with little to no details, so I am not sure what shock and fork parts were considered. After analyzing some data I researched as far as general labor costs ($90-$100 per hour) combined with the suspension parts, It seems that $900-$1000 for the fork rebuild and rear shock replacement would be more in the ball park. I don't race or hit the track but would like a more "tuned" suspension since mine seems to be on the soft side. I go on general rides with the occasional Ortega Highway as well as Santiago Canyon. I am around 235 lbs with gear. I have heard you should do both the forks and the rear shock at the same time, is this true? In regards to the fork rebuild/parts, Fork Oil, Springs, seals, damper? as well as any additional parts that are recommended to swap out since you have the forks disassembled. The rear shock I really don't know, I have hear that you need to replace it with a Nitron, Elka, Hagon or other that is built to specs with your weight in consideration and is "rebuildable". I really don't need a race or track shock but I do know that an upgrade will make a huge difference. What is the life expectancy from a Nitron or Elka or similar rear shock in comparison to a stock rear shock? Do any of you know a reasonable mechanic in the area that can perform these tasks? Time is not an issue but I also would not want my bike to be sitting at a mechanic for two months.

    Your responses are greatly appreciated!! :smile-new:

    Thanks,
     
  2. mofo

    mofo New Member

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    Welcome neighbor. I can't help with answers, but I do know who NOT to take your bike to in the OC. PM me if you want to know more.
     
  3. OOTV

    OOTV Insider

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    First, welcome to The World! Second, I can tell you what I did and maybe we can meet up and talk shop, I'm real close to the Cypress border (Near: Knott and Katella).

    For my '09 I had Jamie Daugherty of Daughertymotorsports.com rebuild an VFR ABS model shock and provide me with the springs, valves and shims for the forks and I did the installation of those components. For my '01 I had him rebuild a Penske shock I got off of ebay and sent him my forks to have them rebuilt and have rebound adjusters put in as well. For the record, Jamie is located in Indiana but the return on investment for his work is very good. If you're shy about sending parts in the mail, or being without your suspension components for a while, I can possibly help you there. If you want to get the parts and pieces and DIY and/or need tools and a plce to work, I can possibly be of assistance there too.

    Cheers
     
  4. Scubalong

    Scubalong Official Greeter?

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    ^^^^^^^^^^What he said :)
    Sound like time for wrenching and drinking :party2:
    Ootv and I can help you work on your bike :drinkers: and :boobies7: in return
     
  5. Scubalong

    Scubalong Official Greeter?

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    BTW :welcome: to the madness :wave:
    Glad to have you, ride safe and keep the rubbers side down. ATGATT
     
  6. Spartacus

    Spartacus New Member

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    Thanks for the information and the advice. Although I don't know much about suspension tuning the forks are probably something I should not attempt since I only have basic tools and no stand. Do they put additional parts in the forks? I know that the components are a "system" and there is not that much info online about the rebuilding, just for my reading. But! I am sure there are plenty of upgrades outside of and including different oil, new springs as well as high quality seals from SKF. I am sure even that would make a big difference. What type of Penske shock did you buy? I looked them up and found that there are three that fit the 01 VFR. PS8987, PS8983 and the PS8900. Also on the Daugherty site they have a 929 conversion replacement shock for $420. I wonder what a used Penske shock rebuild would be for comparison? Overall I am sure any of these are very good options. I think the Penske rear shock replacement is a good direction, buy a Penske and send it to Daugherty to rebuild. The fork rebuild as well as full setup is going to be the hard part. Thanks for the help.
     
  7. Terry Smith

    Terry Smith Member

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    For forks, the modifications usually comprise of new oil (and seals and bushings if needed), new springs to suit your weight, and then modifications to the damper cartridge which is bolted through the bottom of the fork leg. The cartridge has a moving piston connected by rod to the fork cap and that piston contains the rebound damping shim stack, and there is a second fixed valve and shim stack at the bottom of the damper that controls compression damping. Shims are very thin flexible steel washers that provide resistance to oil flow and the number of them used allows the tuner to adjust the resistance. Modifications to the damper usually include swapping the compression valve for a higher flow one along with new shims, and then may also include a new rebound piston and shims. The skill of the installer/tuner is in selecting the right combination of shims and spring to suit the rider, and on your own this can be an iterative process that might involve rebuilding the dampers a few times. Most of the rebuild is straightforward unbolting and bolting, the only exception is the damper cartridge which needs to have some peened over threads filed off and a couple of spots drilled out as Honda did not intend for it to be rebuilt!

    Standard forks (in my experience) usually have springs that are on the light side, lots of preload to get a decent ride height, and then overly firm compression damping to stop bottoming. This gives a mushy ride but also harshness over bumps. The upgrade will use more of the spring to resist bottoming and so rely less on compression damping, giving a firmer but less jolting ride. YMMV.

    I've recently put a CRB929 shock from Daugherty in my VFR and am waiting on parts to do a full front end rebuild as well. There's nothing wrong with build quality of the CBR shock, and having the right spring and damping set-up should give comparable results for a street rider to a more expensive Ohlins or Penske. I can speak with some experience here as I have recently sold a Suzuki RF900 that had an Ohlins shock and Racetech-modified front end.
     
  8. OOTV

    OOTV Insider

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    The Penske I found was an 8983 and was not setup anywhere near what was needed, the seller had wrong info, but Jamie sussed it all out for me. As far as the forks, he put in the CBR internals which is where the rebound adjusters came from, replaced the springs, valving, shims and installed the SKF fork seals. As mentioned before, this was for my '01. As far as the 929 shock goes, many members on the site have gone this route and have been very pleased.

    That being said, getting the components and going the DIY route for the forks really only saves a few $ but allows you to ride your bike until your ready to install. Here is where Scubalong and I can help you out, I have the tools and space to perform the deed and no one opens a bottle of IPA better/faster than Scubalong!
     
  9. Motographer

    Motographer New Member

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    Another vote for Daugherty Motorsports and the 929 shock conversion. It totally transformed the handling of my '98, and if I wasn't riding daily, I'd have sent my forks to him already. As it is, I can't have my bike out of commission for the 2-4 week downtime, but I have been considering a Race Tech kit that I could have installed locally. Suspension tuning is the one thing the 5th-gen needs to be just about perfect, so I'd highly recommend it whichever route you go.
     
  10. Spartacus

    Spartacus New Member

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    Thanks guys, all of your responses are appreciated and it seems you have extensive knowledge and experience with the VFR. Cadbury64s description on the "standard forks" is spot on. I could not write that any better since it is exactly what I am experiencing. I really like the bike, it is just right for me with not too much power which keeps me out of trouble. I guess I will start saving money!! I would like to go with the penske shock but the cost concerns me, I found on craigslist a guy that is parting out his track CBR600 (Temecula) and has a (Penske double clicker rear shock built for 185lb rider as well in january. only 4 weekends on it, near new. -$575) but this would obviously have to be altered in some way to fit the 01 VFR ($575 + ?) or may have to go with the CBR 929 conversion which I am sure will be OK. The forks it seems I have no choice but to jump in with the CBR internals as OOTV detailed. It seems like I should be able to get all of these parts from Daugherty. Thanks again!!
     
  11. Motographer

    Motographer New Member

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    The CBR600 shock will definitely require a longer upper mount to fit the VFR; if it's an F4i it will provably work, not sure about the one on the RR. Which CBR do the fork internals come from?

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
     
  12. Spartacus

    Spartacus New Member

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    Thanks guys, I emailed Jamie from Daugherty and he sent me a very nice response. I now know what this will cost me minus the labor. In regards to the fork build from what I could interpret from the email, I guess he (Jamie) does not use CBR parts anymore and supplies his own cartridge parts. Also the swap is fairly easy but not a direct "drop in". I wonder if he supplies a technical write up with the parts.
     
  13. OOTV

    OOTV Insider

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    I believe that as far as valves, shims and the like, he's been using his own design for a while, not sure if the rebound adjusters are his as well, but at the time these were from the CBR or VTR. That said if you want to get the components and install them, Scubalong and I are here to help. I've already done at least 2 fork spring/valve upgrades and 2 fork seal replacement. One was for Scubalong's forks where he and I did it real quick. Barely a two beer project, two beers each that is.:drinkers:
     
  14. Spartacus

    Spartacus New Member

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    Sounds good! Thanks for the hospitality. I will start saving $$ so I can buy all the parts and then I am fully committed. I am wondering about the fork oil? What type? What weight?
     
  15. TNRabbit

    TNRabbit New Member

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    pretty sure he recommends 5W.
     
  16. OOTV

    OOTV Insider

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    Jamie usually recommends Honda Pro Oil (5W) and a 130mm level (IIRC). That being said, this is typically after he has changed the valving and shim stacks, so it may be a little different with stock internals, but I don't think a big difference. Personally I think any of the name brand oils would be fine, but if you plan on going with JD upgrades later on, might as well get the Honda Pro oil if you're planning on just flushing/filling right now.
     
  17. V4 Matt

    V4 Matt New Member

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    Hey, guys, I've been following the thread and am glad that there are some knowledgeable members in the area. I havent done any suspension mods yet but I have already bought some new seals and racetech springs for the fork. I was thinking of doing this work myself, do you think I should go ahead and get the gold valve kit and do it all at the same time or should I just go with the new springs? For reference, I'm riding a totally stock 93 VFR which will be used for 2 up riding with the wife. Sorry if I jacked the tread...
     
  18. OOTV

    OOTV Insider

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    Personally I would do the whole kit and caboodle as everything inside the fork has a cause and effect. From the oil viscosity, to the valve/shim stack, to the spring rate, each has an effect on the other. I would also consider having the rear shock serviced at the same time, as similar to the internal components, the front and rear suspension can have an affect on the other too. When I updated my 6 Gen, I got the rear shock put on almost right after I got it back from Jamie, I left the forks go until I had enough time to get them done without interrupting my weekend rides and not infringing on my wife's request for my "presence" (read: Honey do list). I rode it like this for a few a while and wasn't really impressed until I completed the front end, then I could tell what a big difference the changes made! Of course budget is always a factor, so I get not going all out at once. Like with Spartacus, the offer for help is there for you too.

    Cheers
     
  19. Spartacus

    Spartacus New Member

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    Well Ok!!! As long as my welcome is not worn out if Koconut gets to you first!
     
  20. Terry Smith

    Terry Smith Member

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    I concur with the suggestions that if you're going to change the springs you might as well do the whole shebang. I also agree that there is an inter-relationship between springs oil and damping and that they need to be considered as a system. However there is a "but", and that is the level of work required, which is very different between the two options.

    Swapping springs is just a matter of pulling off the fork-caps and undoing the damper rod, and maybe cutting spacers to suit. You'd be wise to swap out the oil at this point and to do this usually requires pulling the forks right out of the bike, which gives you a chance also to flush out accumulated crud from the insides. I've read threads that suggest you could do an oil swap with forks in place by simply removing the axle to get access to the damper rod bolts in the bottom of the leg. Haven't tried that myself but it sounds plausible.

    Changing the damper components is another matter, and definitely requires fork removal first. The damper cartridge needs to be diassembled and that requires drilling out punchings and filing off peened over threads. Then comes the reassembly with new shims and at this point you need to make some judgement calls on the shim combination to use. I'm no professional mechanic and have tinkered with shocks and forks for a good few years, and while the task looks a bit complex it is pretty logical. If anyone is interested I do have the Racetech Goldvalve instructions that I can post.
     
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