6th Gen Guhl reflash discussion

Discussion in '6th Generation 2002-2013' started by goinphaster, Nov 27, 2016.

  1. goinphaster

    goinphaster New Member

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    This thread is to discuss pro's, cons, and your personal opinions in regards to my post Guhl Reflash for the 6th gen buyers thread . That post was just soliciting people to committing to buying, here is the thread to ask questions and learn, etc. Not everyone is a "rocket surgeon' when it comes to motorcycle mechanics and this is a forum for all to learn about their rides so get engaged and be active. I'll help out by posting the pro's and Cons again here:

    Cons:
    - It's about +$380.00 based on my research, but it may be higher.
    - There is no guarantee he can do "everything" to the 6th gen like he has done to the VFR1200.
    - From what I can tell, he can only do 2006 and above, because 02-05 have different ECU's. I don't know if he has tried those years yet.
    - He needs a 2006-2013 VFR800 for dyno testing at his shop in Ephrata, PA 17522.
    - Once he gets the dyno testing done, there is no guarantee on what the timeline will be for Don to be in "production of final products".
    - We are going to need ten plus people who WILL buy Don's reflash services.

    Pro's:
    - Don's reflashes do not require cutting.
    - Not only can he do a standard reflash, but he can incorporate power commander maps for any mods you have made (flapper delete, motad headers, superchargers, etc)
    - What he can do to the ignition map alone outweighs the benefits of using a power commander- which cannot adjust the ignition.
    - He is a one day turn around from the time he receives your ECU, with overnight return shipping.
    - I can't find an unhappy customer in my researching of Don and his business.

    What are your thoughts about committing the cash based on what you know and have read?
     
  2. goinphaster

    goinphaster New Member

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    I'll start the discussion about why "I" want this reflash:

    I think a reflash will help me not want a new bike. I know my 2006 so well that I can catalog it's short comings, shortcomings that I know are there because Honda built a bike they knew we would want but couldn't deliver ride-ability that we desire, so that emissions numbers would look good. The ignition is the key to getting this V4 goodness to wake up and immediately respond the same way my Dad's 1982, 750cc, 90 degree V4, shaft drive, carbureted, 650lb, Honda Sabre with no fairing responded to throttle inputs- all the while pulling in 53mpg. I honestly think that once the ignition is mapped properly, the bike will respond and I won't have a desire to downshift everytime I want to accelerate with any timeliness. And once I have that then the bike will be like my favorite pair of shoes- I won't want anything new until they literally fall apart under me.

    I think Don is the man to make it happen, and too many people are happy with his work to have fears about his ability to deliver. I have the patience needed to wait until he's able to deliver a final product.
     
  3. dennisgb

    dennisgb New Member

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    I'm new to the VFR world. Is this a reflash of a Power Commander?
     
  4. OOTV

    OOTV Insider

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    No, its a reflashing of the actual Honda ECU. It would typically be done in lieu of using a Power Commander.
     
  5. goinphaster

    goinphaster New Member

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    A Power Commander "fixes" fueling issues that are programmed into your ECU- and they are very limited in their ability to do it. I have one, it works, but it won't outperform an ECU with programming that allows the bike to use all of the engines performance. the Manufacturer programmed the ECU to comply with lots of emission regulations.

    Don's reflash will remove all that limiting programming and make the bike respond the way it should.
     
  6. carlgustav

    carlgustav New Member

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    Or, get a Rapid Bike module. Twice the cost but 1/2 the hassle. Simple plug-in in line. Provides fuel and ignition mapping along with quickshift, launch control, traction control, and engine braking adjustment options. The options are only available on the 'race' module version. Base map provided for 6th gen VFRs is very good as is. I have a year including 2 long road trips use with mine. Just an option to consider, if you have $$$ (I don't, I saved up for it :)).

    ACE
     
  7. northwood

    northwood New Member

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    I would have gone with Don, but they never answered my e-mails or phone calls. Never got a reply.
     
  8. OOTV

    OOTV Insider

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    I had the same issue, but if the OP has been in communication with them and has a group buy lined up, I would be willing to give it a go.

    ...Guhl Reflash for the 6th gen buyers thread
     
  9. CandyRedRC46

    CandyRedRC46 Member

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    You are correct, the 6th gen VFR800 is totally transformed with some added ignition timing. My ignition map (the Rapid Bike Racing base ignition map), has around 5 degrees added in the 2500-8000 RPM range and it pulls like freight train in the low to mid range now. JUST BE SURE TO LET EVERYONE KNOW PREMIUM FUEL WILL BE A MUST WHEN ADVANCING THE IGNITION TIMING.

    I would love to see this happen as a cheaper alternative to the Rapid Bike and the power commander that ironically doesn't add much power lol.
     
  10. goinphaster

    goinphaster New Member

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    While a rapid bike module could get me in the ball park, I don't think a blanket 5 degree advance is any better than a power commander. Not in terms of what an ECU can process with 3D map processing capability- change the map of the ignition based on rpm, throttle position and fueling. I bet I wouldn't need premium fuel either. Now if this doesn't work, maybe I might go this route, but it won't be as good as getting the OEM ECU processing power to do the heavy lifting its capable of.
     
  11. CandyRedRC46

    CandyRedRC46 Member

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    It's not a blanket 5* of ignition. Rapid Bike has three dimensional ignition and fuel mapping. I'm sorry but you need to do research before making incorrect claims. Also you are incorrect about necessary octane. If you tune for regular unleaded, the gains will be minimal.

    [​IMG]

    Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
     
  12. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    My go to folks for dyno tuning told me to look for something other than the Rapidbike module....said it was clunky to deal with and that the software wasn't very refined. They actually recommended the Power Commander over the RapidBike for ease of use. They informed me that they charge more money to create maps for machines with the Rapidbike module, due to what they described as "the hassle" of dealing with the software that doesn't always work as good as it should. I can say that I have never seen or used a Rapidbike module personally, so you can take this information with a grain of salt.
     
  13. CandyRedRC46

    CandyRedRC46 Member

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    That's not surprising. Not many people are trained to use RB in the states and it definitely is way less user friendly than PC. PC is pretty much dummy proof. RB software takes some getting used to and you might have to deal with a bug from time to time, but the software and hardware is a million time more powerful than dynojets. I used PC for a few years, then found rapid bike and never looked back. Dynojet offers very little support for the vfr800 (not even adjustable ignition mapping). From a performance stand point, it's kind of a joke. On the other hand, rapid bike offers individual cylinder, closed loop fuel injection, with up to four wide band o2 sensors, 3D IGNITION MAPPING, adjustable on the fly fuel trim target, engine braking control, launch control, traction control and more. It is definitely not for the novice and I can see why a shop that isn't an actual dealer or trained in Dimsport software wouldn't want to work on it.



    Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
     
  14. goinphaster

    goinphaster New Member

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    I'm pretty sure that just being an awesome keyboard commando that I am, I don't NEED to do anything. I will allow people to do what they desire- no one here NEEDS to do a Guhl Reflash, because I am not here trying to make money. If they want it, they can get it. I do NEED to go with Guhl because I don't feel the NEED to use premium gas for a bike that doesn't NEED it, especially when the better product is used- and I'm not sorry about that. Everyone here can choose what they want to do.
     
  15. ozzybob

    ozzybob New Member

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    Why is that one almost every bike forum when someone asked about performance upgrades someone always feels the need to tell them they don't need it and shouldn't do it?
    Why is that?
    Motorcycles are mostly made as high performance machines that are a luxury item.
    Some people like to personalise and increase the performance.
    Other people buy them because they are tight arses and moan about fuel economy and tyre life and just love telling everyone they should be the same.
     
  16. CandyRedRC46

    CandyRedRC46 Member

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    Lol at needing the guhl flash because of not needing premium gas.

    Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
     
  17. goinphaster

    goinphaster New Member

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    I don't need a Guhl reflash- I want a Guhl reflash, of my own free will- as do others.
     
  18. goinphaster

    goinphaster New Member

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    Update:

    I had a nice discussion with Don today about what was needed and what he was looking at, and I am impressed with his experience and insight. Don has reflashed many Honda's, but he has done many other bikes too. Some of our discussion revolved around what Honda does to skirt emissions requirements versus other manufacturers. He is absolutely positive that Honda relied heavily on Ignition mapping to control emissions, because most of the other manufacturers use dual butterfly's or throttle by wire. Without dual butterfly throttle bodies he says ignition is the only outlet after fueling, and it hurts the bike the most in the RPM ranges that are mostly used at cruising speed- which is why I think throttle response sucks so much. He went on to talk about how bikes such as the Kawasaki HP2, when the throttle is twisted wide open at top speed the butterfly's aren't even open all the way. He is also very sure that VTEC, while still serving a purpose, can be made more seamless in transition, and changed to an RPM that will unlock more power and response to throttle inputs.

    He also does not need ten buyers- he just needs one bike to test on the dyno to smooth his initial work out on. More of that is being discussed over in the http://vfrworld.com/forums/showthread.php/52265-Guhl-Reflash-for-the-6th-gen-buyers-thread.

    I do have a couple of questions for those out there that have Modded their VFR's in the search for more power-

    If the bike came off the dealers lot without all the crap Honda programmed it with for emissions purposes, would you have still modded it?

    If you were to get the reflash, would you still do things like CAT and flapper delete?
     
  19. ozzybob

    ozzybob New Member

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    Very good retort, goingphaster.
    Great info from Don ghul as well, thanks for sharing.
     
  20. CandyRedRC46

    CandyRedRC46 Member

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    Well all it takes is one look at an off the shelf Rapid Bike ignition map to tell you that lol. From around 3000-8000 rpms, there is a lot of timing being added, specifically from 4000-7000 you have 5 degrees being added at various throttle positions. This is nothing new... But what is new and what I do really like, is the ability to adjust the VTEC transition. The purpose of mild ignition mapping by Honda is debatable, whether it is primarily for use of low grade fuel or for emissions reasons, I am going to say mainly for use of low grade fuel. I would love to hear Don's opinion on making you a map specific for low grade fuel, it would probably be along the lines of either not touching the ignition mapping at all and doing fuel/vtec only changes or just making smaller ignition timing changes like 1-2 max and lose out on the big torque increases of the 5 degree advance.

    Now back to VTEC changes, the higher RPM engagement of VTEC than necessary, I would agree is totally for emissions/ noise regulations purposes. These engines are much cleaner while in 2 valve mode, due to the swirl introduced in the combustion chamber and quieter as well. Initially Honda really over shot the engagement point at 6800 RPMs as the 2 valve engine starts run out of air at around that speed, so it was reduced down to a 6400 engage / 6100 disengage window, as this was probably the limit on noise/emissions testing, while the actual optimal engagement could be closer to 5500 or 5000 rpms. So I really like the possibility of finding a more optimal vtec engagement rpm and doing away with the 6400-6100 "window" or even disabling it all together (if that is even possible).
     

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