5th gen 800FI catastrophic engine failure questions

Discussion in 'Mechanics Garage' started by gips, May 22, 2017.

  1. gips

    gips New Member

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    Hello all,
    been reading here for a while, but its my first post, because that is my first real issue with the bike, since i got it last year. Basically the engine got destroyed this Saturday and I'm looking for a possible cause in order not to repeat the same issue again. In short i was riding with my friend Saturday morning and we were attacking some twisties uphill, when we got to the top i noticed the temperature was going to 110C, but i said ok thats normal after all i was pushing it uphill at low gears like 2nd and 3rd. We went downhill and it immediately cooled off. Then later , when we reached the highway and noticed there was no traffic at all my friend started pushing it on his 94 CBR900 and i followed watching the temp closely. Reached 6th gear and because my pinions are shortened i noticed the bike is going to reach top speed very soon. So it did that and stopped around 11.5K rpm on 6th. There was no more room, so i saw a slight uphill and said ok thats enough as soon as i'm past the hill i'm reducing the speed, my mate was away anyway and i had no options to catch him. Unfortunately bike didn't last those 20 more seconds. Just several seconds before the top i noticed bike losing power, checked temp it was fine around 90C, but while i was reducing speed and looking for a stop i noticed the temp gauge going over 100C very fast. I stopped, the bike idled badly like around 1000rpm and there was a sound, bad sound, like a rod bearing. The bike continued to overheat i saw it going to 130C , so i decided to shut it although i know, you shouldn't do that, but in this case there was damage already, so i simply shut it. Waited a few min it cooled started hardly and showed 100C and immediately begin slowly overheating again, while the metallic sound was of course present. I rode for like 1-2km and the bike went to 120C sound went from bad to worse. I shut it and my mate started pushing me on the crash bar slowly to get home. So my question is , is it normal for the bike to get that hot on the twisties ? And are those 11K rpm that bad for it, after all the cut is at 12K ...... needlessly to say it had new coolant(red) and new oil 15w-50 changed like 1K before. I'm going for a replacement engine, there is no point of repairing this one, and yes i have destroyed a few car engines, so i know there is no need to open it, its done for. Unfortunately i am a bit afraid about the reliability of those bikes, and i may consider selling it due to a possible similar failure in the future. I have ridden a CBR600 at the limiter all day long and there was no sign of trouble. I already ordered the replacement engine, so it will be in as soon as i find enough time to put it there, but i'm still wondering why that happened. Is the bike simply not up to the task, or the engine was just defective or something. I really like the bike. i'm very tall, so this bike is so perfect for me, but i'm unsure, if i should give it a 2nd chance. It had like 40K KM on the clock, probably real ones depending on the bike appearance outside.
     
  2. CandyRedRC46

    CandyRedRC46 Member

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    With several failures on your record, admitted holding engines at red line, admitted riding while overheated, maybe it's not the bike. Maybe it's the rider...

    Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
     
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  3. gips

    gips New Member

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    According to the owners manual Honda considers overheating a temperature over 122 degree, bike was at 110 at most and only for a very short while. And maybe i had to give some additional information, i am participating in drift events with a race car, so yes i consider driving at the redline pretty normal, hence i was asking if the engine is up to the task, if you say its not, for various reasons, then that's ok, i will simply sell the bike, however i don't see any technical explanation , why the bike shouldn't be ridden at the redline from time to time. After all Honda decided to put the redline at 12K, hence they consider everything up to 12k a possible riding range.
     
  4. vegaquark

    vegaquark New Member

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    We just don't know. This should be a long lasting bike, and a long lasting engine.
    Could you please open the engine and show the result?
    I'm worried that 10w50 (wich im running too) is not adequate for this bike and could cause oil overheating on the main crankshaft bearing.
    Please open it and show us the problem to help you and help us all with the issue.
    My bike isnt over 108-110 celsius anytime but i'm worried
     
  5. vegaquark

    vegaquark New Member

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    I'm worried about cheap oil filters too... Please check that your filter is not disintegrated and clogged the oil lines...
     
  6. gips

    gips New Member

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    Filter was a HiFlo, a didn't know this company, but judging by the internet info, its a reputable company and filter should be fine. I will disassemble the destroyed engine as soon as i fix the bike with the new one and will let you know the result. Based on the sounds from the engine, before it stopped turning i suspect a spun rod bearing. This is usually what gives in at high rpm. Then the rod stretched the bolts and at some point they gave up by releasing the rod cap and seizing the crank with it. That is what i think happened , but i will know for sure, when i open it. Still this kind of failure i usually uncommon , if the engine is not high mileage and rod bolts are torqued to spec......and you have not moved the limiter of course :) That is why i was wondering , if there is some kind of engineering fault with those kind of engines. Something like a weak oil pump, or oil cavitation due to bad design of oil flow at high rpm, because i pretty much doubt honda will torque the rod bolts incorrectly.
     
  7. James Bond

    James Bond Member

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    VFR engines are up to the task because I run mine at high revs in high ambient temps. for years, as others have, and in mountains practically everytime it's out with no problems ever. I only use 10W-40 synthetic oil year round with OEM oil filters. I've never had an over heating problem either in stop and go or wide open riding in the mountains and have done this on three generations of VFR's. There's no way a 15w-50 oil can be good for this engine IMO. It's too thick and that alone causes heat buildup and poor flow characteristics, not added heat or lubrication protection. Oil is meant to flow and COOL the engine. I don't ever remember reading of a VFR engine failing due to a Honda quality issue. Like others have said, I suspect the issue can be traced back to something the owner did or didn't do. More detail to exactly what failed would be helpful.
     
  8. RVFR

    RVFR Member

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    I'm along with Drifting here. 30 years of VFR pounding, I've never, I mean never (knock on wood Murphy ain't around) have I had a question if the engine wasn't in good working order. these engine are pretty much bullet proof as they say. Yes I agree 15-50w is a no no. 110 Celsius++230 degrees, smh IDK, thats up there, though yes the manual says not to be concerned, I would be. I've never seen 230 on the 5th, the 4th gens had analog gauge where there was a C and an H, still those never gave way to this sort of heat. Could of been a fueling issue where it went lean, that would cook it, then add the type of oil and didn't recognize the situation soon enough. Oh Poop! I'm thinking here there's a blend of Oh shiet here, oil, coolant, driver condition. Then there's just that man made shiet will happen too. Yes I'd like to see photos of what you find. Better yet. ship the engine to me, I'll see what's what. Curious minds would like to know.
     
  9. vegaquark

    vegaquark New Member

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    We all would like to know what happend there. Anyway im off of the 10w-50 and back to 10w-40.
    Mybe 15w-50 was too much for it and it didn't cool enough...
     
  10. Allyance

    Allyance Insider

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    Holding an 17 (at least) year old bike with 40K on the clock at redline in top gear just because you think anything just below is safe is very foolish. You no history on that engine, whether it suffered and oil problem early on (pre-existing condition) might have triggered the failure. You are lucky it didn't lockup and toss you off at full tilt.
     
  11. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    1. These engines do heat up when being hustled under load, especially if the ambient temp is above 75 degrees.
    2. Running these engines near redline isn't a big deal
    3. The oil viscosity thing is inconsequential
    4. Until the engine gets inspected it could easily be something completely unrelated to engine rpm or temperature
     
  12. vegaquark

    vegaquark New Member

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    Age of the bike wont make it weaker in any way
    Instead, a proven engine wont fail as easy as a new one because of fabrication errors... Did you hear about those bmw used blocks taken to lab again because they where stronger after use cycles?
     
  13. Allyance

    Allyance Insider

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    Obviously age wasn't the cause, but I was concerned how it was treated during those years.
     
  14. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    You can't put toothpaste back in the tube, especially when you don't know who else is using the toothpaste.
     
  15. Alaskan

    Alaskan Member

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    I did a lot of web research on VFR 800s before I bought mine. The electrical system has its problems, but catastrophic engine failure was not mentioned.










    .
     
  16. squirrelman

    squirrelman Member

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    COULD BE SOME FLAGRANT exhibitionist was doing wheelies that starved the oil pickup.
     
  17. Lint

    Lint Member

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    My 99 has over 76,000 miles and I run it with hard at times. Redlines are a normality for me. So are high temperatures. Hell, I've seen my bike as hot as 257°F chasing a Lamborghini. That was months ago. Full synthetic 5/40 oil and a quality filter. Our engines are immortal. 230ish degree temps are quite common for my bike.

    I'd love to know what caused the engine failure.
     
  18. RVFR

    RVFR Member

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    My offer still stands, send me that engine, I'd be more than happy to find out if it's worth rebuilding ;)
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2017
  19. gips

    gips New Member

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    Problem is, there is a car, where i can work on the bike. Until the car gets its new turbo, which should be hopefully this week, there is no disassembly happening. So do not expect info in the upcoming days. And sending a broken engine to the other side of the world, will be the quite ...... stupid :)
     
  20. John451

    John451 Member

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    Mine has near 100,000kms and seen it's temp go into red 122C twice during heavy stop start city traffic on a 40C / 104F+ days before pulling over to let it cool as well as hitting 12,000rpm briefly many times. As it's unusual to hear of a normally bullet proof Gen 5s engine failure I'm curious also.
     
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