electrical gremlin

'94 with 152,210 miles
Newer style Reg/Rec (it has fins, I'm assuming Honda unit, but it was on
the bike when I bought it 4 years ago). battery is about a year old, i
think, I can't remember.

Here are the symptoms:
History-- for about 6 months or so, everyone once in a while when I would
hit the starter button, I would get nothing. Hit it again and it starts
right up and runs and charges fine. I figured that was a minor problem,
similar to when the headlights go out when you switch from Hi to Lo due to
a dirty Hi/Lo switch.
I had also burned up the connection at the main relay/fuse that the
Reg/Rec connects to in front of the battery about a year ago due to some
moisture/corrosion. That was cleaned up and new spade connections
crimped on. The connections seemed intact, although there is evidence of
heat damage to the connections now, but I don't know if that is recent or
related to this.

Bike was running and charging fine (LED display showed somewhere in the
14v range on the way in to work as it has for as long as I remember)
Got out of work, sit on bike, turn on ignition, electrical system appears
normal. Hit starter button nothing. Hit it again and I hear a slight pop
(under the seat? hard to tell with the helmet on)
and all lights go out. No juice to anything. Turn off the ignition and
there is still some juice as the clock comes back on.

I can pop start the bike but the speedo gauge is going berserk and the
voltmeter is all over the place. and I have to keep the revs high to keep
the bike running.

Whenever the ignition key turns on, the juice drains as you can see the
clock fade out. The on-board voltmeter is relayed on the ignition switch
so that is of no help.

I can't find any blown fuses.


Any ideas?



Paul in SoCal
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In a message dated 9/6/07 4:29:27 PM, Paul.Smith@xxxxxx writes:


>
> '94 with 152,210 miles. Any ideas?
>

Hmmm...Up until the last paragraph, I was thinking corrosion/rust inside the
right handlebar pod on the starter button. Had that happen a few times. A
little sandpaper and I was G2G.

But that wouldn't make your speedo all wiggy. I'd say battery is done. Is it
maintenence free, or can you add H2O to it? Maybe it lost H2O during the last
week here in glorious LA? I baked a few in FL & AZ when I was there, through
nothing except 100+ temps for a while.

R/R?

-greginLA


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hi,

i had a similar problem on my 97 vfr, except mine sounded more like a
bang than a pop. it went while i was in traffic ( lucky it wasn't the
freeway ) and i had just enough power to make it to the side of the
road. after that it wouldn't even turn over. it turned out to be the
reg/rec ( old style, no fins ). what happens if you recharge the battery
but disconnect the reg/rec? if it runs fine without the reg/rec then you
can be pretty sure where the problem is :)

regards,
siegfried.


________________________________

From: vfr-bounces@xxxxxx [mailto:vfr-bounces@xxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Paul.Smith@xxxxxx
Sent: Friday, 7 September 2007 09:28
To: vfr@xxxxxx
Subject: electrical gremlin



'94 with 152,210 miles
Newer style Reg/Rec (it has fins, I'm assuming Honda unit, but
it was on the bike when I bought it 4 years ago). battery is about a
year old, i think, I can't remember.

Here are the symptoms:
History-- for about 6 months or so, everyone once in a while
when I would hit the starter button, I would get nothing. Hit it again
and it starts right up and runs and charges fine. I figured that was
a minor problem, similar to when the headlights go out when you switch
from Hi to Lo due to a dirty Hi/Lo switch.
I had also burned up the connection at the main relay/fuse that
the Reg/Rec connects to in front of the battery about a year ago due to
some moisture/corrosion. That was cleaned up and new spade connections
crimped on. The connections seemed intact, although there is evidence
of heat damage to the connections now, but I don't know if that is
recent or related to this.

Bike was running and charging fine (LED display showed somewhere
in the 14v range on the way in to work as it has for as long as I
remember)
Got out of work, sit on bike, turn on ignition, electrical
system appears normal. Hit starter button nothing. Hit it again and I
hear a slight pop (under the seat? hard to tell with the helmet on)
and all lights go out. No juice to anything. Turn off the
ignition and there is still some juice as the clock comes back on.

I can pop start the bike but the speedo gauge is going berserk
and the voltmeter is all over the place. and I have to keep the revs
high to keep the bike running.

Whenever the ignition key turns on, the juice drains as you can
see the clock fade out. The on-board voltmeter is relayed on the
ignition switch so that is of no help.

I can't find any blown fuses.


Any ideas?



Paul in SoCal



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Thanks all for the replies.
I will check the obvious, and easiest to fix first.
I'll swap the battery from my 97 and unplug the R/R and then double check
by swapping the R/R (the current R/R in the 97 is from a late model
Gixxer)

I'll have to do a severe cleaning of the main relay and some new crimps.
Should probably buy a new starter relay, too, to be on the safe side.

Hopefully its not a ground problem or some wiring problem. That will be
the most difficult to track down, I think.

Wish me luck!
Ebay here I come...


Paul in SoCal
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Starter relay.


On 9/6/07 6:28 PM, "Paul.Smith@xxxxxx" wrote:

>
> '94 with 152,210 miles
> Newer style Reg/Rec (it has fins, I'm assuming Honda unit, but it was on the
> bike when I bought it 4 years ago). battery is about a year old, i think, I
> can't remember.
>
> Here are the symptoms:
> History-- for about 6 months or so, everyone once in a while when I would hit
> the starter button, I would get nothing. Hit it again and it starts right up
> and runs and charges fine. I figured that was a minor problem, similar to
> when the headlights go out when you switch from Hi to Lo due to a dirty Hi/Lo
> switch.
> I had also burned up the connection at the main relay/fuse that the Reg/Rec
> connects to in front of the battery about a year ago due to some
> moisture/corrosion. That was cleaned up and new spade connections crimped
> on. The connections seemed intact, although there is evidence of heat damage
> to the connections now, but I don't know if that is recent or related to this.
>
> Bike was running and charging fine (LED display showed somewhere in the 14v
> range on the way in to work as it has for as long as I remember)
> Got out of work, sit on bike, turn on ignition, electrical system appears
> normal. Hit starter button nothing. Hit it again and I hear a slight pop
> (under the seat? hard to tell with the helmet on)
> and all lights go out. No juice to anything. Turn off the ignition and there
> is still some juice as the clock comes back on.
>
> I can pop start the bike but the speedo gauge is going berserk and the
> voltmeter is all over the place. and I have to keep the revs high to keep the
> bike running.
>
> Whenever the ignition key turns on, the juice drains as you can see the clock
> fade out. The on-board voltmeter is relayed on the ignition switch so that is
> of no help.
>
> I can't find any blown fuses.
>
>
> Any ideas?
>
>
>
> Paul in SoCal
> This message is intended solely for the designated recipient(s). It may
> contain
> confidential or proprietary information and may be subject to attorney-client
> privilege or other confidentiality protections. If you are not a designated
> recipient you may not review, copy or distribute this message.
> If you receive this in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail
> and delete this message. Thank you.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> vfr mailing list
> vfr@xxxxxx
> For subscription and delivery options:
> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr



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Hmm. The speedo/high revs symptom is clearly related to the battery
being duff, not the starting circuit. It means there is no charging
of the battery going on. I can imagine three possible causes:
battery, reg/rec and wiring. Since you can't start the bike, and you
have another battery, swap and see if (a) the bike starts and (b) what
the charging voltage is (using the old reg/rec). If within spec,
congratulations, you've found the problem (the battery). Except that
you really have to give the reg/rec time to heat up, because they can
sometimes fail only when hot. Personally, I would always suspect a
reg/rec, because I hate them...

The starting-related problem could very well be a different problem,
or related to the non-charging battery. But the starter problem could
not have caused a battery to fail, at least not in any way that I
could imagine. Good luck. It's always a good idea to have a
multimeter to troubleshoot electrical problems, btw.

Ciao,

JZH
London, UK/Dubai, UAE
www.vsource.org

On 9/7/07, Thomas Davenport wrote:
> Starter relay.
>
>
>
> On 9/6/07 6:28 PM, "Paul.Smith@xxxxxx" wrote:
>
>
>
> '94 with 152,210 miles
> Newer style Reg/Rec (it has fins, I'm assuming Honda unit, but it was on the
> bike when I bought it 4 years ago). battery is about a year old, i think, I
> can't remember.
>
> Here are the symptoms:
> History-- for about 6 months or so, everyone once in a while when I would
> hit the starter button, I would get nothing. Hit it again and it starts
> right up and runs and charges fine. I figured that was a minor problem,
> similar to when the headlights go out when you switch from Hi to Lo due to a
> dirty Hi/Lo switch.
> I had also burned up the connection at the main relay/fuse that the Reg/Rec
> connects to in front of the battery about a year ago due to some
> moisture/corrosion. That was cleaned up and new spade connections crimped
> on. The connections seemed intact, although there is evidence of heat
> damage to the connections now, but I don't know if that is recent or related
> to this.
>
> Bike was running and charging fine (LED display showed somewhere in the 14v
> range on the way in to work as it has for as long as I remember)
> Got out of work, sit on bike, turn on ignition, electrical system appears
> normal. Hit starter button nothing. Hit it again and I hear a slight pop
> (under the seat? hard to tell with the helmet on)
> and all lights go out. No juice to anything. Turn off the ignition and
> there is still some juice as the clock comes back on.
>
> I can pop start the bike but the speedo gauge is going berserk and the
> voltmeter is all over the place. and I have to keep the revs high to keep
> the bike running.
>
> Whenever the ignition key turns on, the juice drains as you can see the
> clock fade out. The on-board voltmeter is relayed on the ignition switch so
> that is of no help.
>
> I can't find any blown fuses.
>
>
> Any ideas?
>
>
>
> Paul in SoCal
> This message is intended solely for the designated recipient(s). It may
> contain
> confidential or proprietary information and may be subject to
> attorney-client
> privilege or other confidentiality protections. If you are not a designated
> recipient you may not review, copy or distribute this message.
> If you receive this in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail
> and delete this message. Thank you.
>
> ________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> vfr mailing list
> vfr@xxxxxx
> For subscription and delivery options:
> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> vfr mailing list
> vfr@xxxxxx
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>
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The reason I suggest the starter relay is not so much for the starting
circuit but for the fact it holds the main fuse. When my RR went out it
took out the main fuse and in the process cooked the spades that hold the
fuse. I chased the problem for some time as the bike would run at times but
at others it would lose all power even when on the road. Also when the key
was in the on position but not started everything worked, lights, clock etc
but when the started button was depressed everything shut down, clock would
reset, nothing worked. I thought it might be the starter button, the light
switch and was just about to tear into the wiring behind the instrument
panel. Luckily I didn't. I noticed the scoring on the main fuse holder
when I replaced the fuse after the RR went but didn't think it was as fried
as it was. Finally I replaced the started relay mainly to fix the fuse
holder and now the bike starts and runs great.

Tom


On 9/9/07 3:40 AM, "jzh3@xxxxxx" wrote:

> Hmm. The speedo/high revs symptom is clearly related to the battery
> being duff, not the starting circuit. It means there is no charging
> of the battery going on. I can imagine three possible causes:
> battery, reg/rec and wiring. Since you can't start the bike, and you
> have another battery, swap and see if (a) the bike starts and (b) what
> the charging voltage is (using the old reg/rec). If within spec,
> congratulations, you've found the problem (the battery). Except that
> you really have to give the reg/rec time to heat up, because they can
> sometimes fail only when hot. Personally, I would always suspect a
> reg/rec, because I hate them...
>
> The starting-related problem could very well be a different problem,
> or related to the non-charging battery. But the starter problem could
> not have caused a battery to fail, at least not in any way that I
> could imagine. Good luck. It's always a good idea to have a
> multimeter to troubleshoot electrical problems, btw.
>
> Ciao,
>
> JZH
> London, UK/Dubai, UAE
> www.vsource.org
>
> On 9/7/07, Thomas Davenport wrote:
>> Starter relay.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/6/07 6:28 PM, "Paul.Smith@xxxxxx" wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> '94 with 152,210 miles
>> Newer style Reg/Rec (it has fins, I'm assuming Honda unit, but it was on the
>> bike when I bought it 4 years ago). battery is about a year old, i think, I
>> can't remember.
>>
>> Here are the symptoms:
>> History-- for about 6 months or so, everyone once in a while when I would
>> hit the starter button, I would get nothing. Hit it again and it starts
>> right up and runs and charges fine. I figured that was a minor problem,
>> similar to when the headlights go out when you switch from Hi to Lo due to a
>> dirty Hi/Lo switch.
>> I had also burned up the connection at the main relay/fuse that the Reg/Rec
>> connects to in front of the battery about a year ago due to some
>> moisture/corrosion. That was cleaned up and new spade connections crimped
>> on. The connections seemed intact, although there is evidence of heat
>> damage to the connections now, but I don't know if that is recent or related
>> to this.
>>
>> Bike was running and charging fine (LED display showed somewhere in the 14v
>> range on the way in to work as it has for as long as I remember)
>> Got out of work, sit on bike, turn on ignition, electrical system appears
>> normal. Hit starter button nothing. Hit it again and I hear a slight pop
>> (under the seat? hard to tell with the helmet on)
>> and all lights go out. No juice to anything. Turn off the ignition and
>> there is still some juice as the clock comes back on.
>>
>> I can pop start the bike but the speedo gauge is going berserk and the
>> voltmeter is all over the place. and I have to keep the revs high to keep
>> the bike running.
>>
>> Whenever the ignition key turns on, the juice drains as you can see the
>> clock fade out. The on-board voltmeter is relayed on the ignition switch so
>> that is of no help.
>>
>> I can't find any blown fuses.
>>
>>
>> Any ideas?
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul in SoCal
>> This message is intended solely for the designated recipient(s). It may
>> contain
>> confidential or proprietary information and may be subject to
>> attorney-client
>> privilege or other confidentiality protections. If you are not a designated
>> recipient you may not review, copy or distribute this message.
>> If you receive this in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail
>> and delete this message. Thank you.
>>
>> ________________________________
>> _______________________________________________
>> vfr mailing list
>> vfr@xxxxxx
>> For subscription and delivery options:
>> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> vfr mailing list
>> vfr@xxxxxx
>> For subscription and delivery options:
>> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>>
> _______________________________________________
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> vfr@xxxxxx
> For subscription and delivery options:
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Hi Tom,

But was your starter relay actually bad? I've seen the wiring and
connectors all fried to hell plenty of times, but never have I seen a
bad relay. I suppose the corrosion/burning could get so bad that the
copper terminals on the relay unit could become unusable/unreliable,
which I think is what you're saying happened to yours, but mostly the
damage seems to be confined to the wiring harness and terminals. I
think Paul's probably familiar with those connections, as he's been
there before--and which is why a two-word answer could be considered
to be a bit brief!

(There is a common starter-related problem on VFR750s (starter clutch
failure), but as Paul hasn't mentioned those symptoms, I thought it
best not to bring it up!)

Ciao,

JZH
London, UK/Dubai, UAE
www.vsource.org

On 9/9/07, Thomas Davenport wrote:
> The reason I suggest the starter relay is not so much for the starting
> circuit but for the fact it holds the main fuse. When my RR went out it
> took out the main fuse and in the process cooked the spades that hold the
> fuse. I chased the problem for some time as the bike would run at times but
> at others it would lose all power even when on the road. Also when the key
> was in the on position but not started everything worked, lights, clock etc
> but when the started button was depressed everything shut down, clock would
> reset, nothing worked. I thought it might be the starter button, the light
> switch and was just about to tear into the wiring behind the instrument
> panel. Luckily I didn't. I noticed the scoring on the main fuse holder
> when I replaced the fuse after the RR went but didn't think it was as fried
> as it was. Finally I replaced the started relay mainly to fix the fuse
> holder and now the bike starts and runs great.
>
> Tom
>
>
> On 9/9/07 3:40 AM, "jzh3@xxxxxx" wrote:
>
> > Hmm. The speedo/high revs symptom is clearly related to the battery
> > being duff, not the starting circuit. It means there is no charging
> > of the battery going on. I can imagine three possible causes:
> > battery, reg/rec and wiring. Since you can't start the bike, and you
> > have another battery, swap and see if (a) the bike starts and (b) what
> > the charging voltage is (using the old reg/rec). If within spec,
> > congratulations, you've found the problem (the battery). Except that
> > you really have to give the reg/rec time to heat up, because they can
> > sometimes fail only when hot. Personally, I would always suspect a
> > reg/rec, because I hate them...
> >
> > The starting-related problem could very well be a different problem,
> > or related to the non-charging battery. But the starter problem could
> > not have caused a battery to fail, at least not in any way that I
> > could imagine. Good luck. It's always a good idea to have a
> > multimeter to troubleshoot electrical problems, btw.
> >
> > Ciao,
> >
> > JZH
> > London, UK/Dubai, UAE
> > www.vsource.org
> >
> > On 9/7/07, Thomas Davenport wrote:
> >> Starter relay.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 9/6/07 6:28 PM, "Paul.Smith@xxxxxx" wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> '94 with 152,210 miles
> >> Newer style Reg/Rec (it has fins, I'm assuming Honda unit, but it was on the
> >> bike when I bought it 4 years ago). battery is about a year old, i think, I
> >> can't remember.
> >>
> >> Here are the symptoms:
> >> History-- for about 6 months or so, everyone once in a while when I would
> >> hit the starter button, I would get nothing. Hit it again and it starts
> >> right up and runs and charges fine. I figured that was a minor problem,
> >> similar to when the headlights go out when you switch from Hi to Lo due to a
> >> dirty Hi/Lo switch.
> >> I had also burned up the connection at the main relay/fuse that the Reg/Rec
> >> connects to in front of the battery about a year ago due to some
> >> moisture/corrosion. That was cleaned up and new spade connections crimped
> >> on. The connections seemed intact, although there is evidence of heat
> >> damage to the connections now, but I don't know if that is recent or related
> >> to this.
> >>
> >> Bike was running and charging fine (LED display showed somewhere in the 14v
> >> range on the way in to work as it has for as long as I remember)
> >> Got out of work, sit on bike, turn on ignition, electrical system appears
> >> normal. Hit starter button nothing. Hit it again and I hear a slight pop
> >> (under the seat? hard to tell with the helmet on)
> >> and all lights go out. No juice to anything. Turn off the ignition and
> >> there is still some juice as the clock comes back on.
> >>
> >> I can pop start the bike but the speedo gauge is going berserk and the
> >> voltmeter is all over the place. and I have to keep the revs high to keep
> >> the bike running.
> >>
> >> Whenever the ignition key turns on, the juice drains as you can see the
> >> clock fade out. The on-board voltmeter is relayed on the ignition switch so
> >> that is of no help.
> >>
> >> I can't find any blown fuses.
> >>
> >>
> >> Any ideas?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Paul in SoCal
> >> This message is intended solely for the designated recipient(s). It may
> >> contain
> >> confidential or proprietary information and may be subject to
> >> attorney-client
> >> privilege or other confidentiality protections. If you are not a designated
> >> recipient you may not review, copy or distribute this message.
> >> If you receive this in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail
> >> and delete this message. Thank you.
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> vfr mailing list
> >> vfr@xxxxxx
> >> For subscription and delivery options:
> >> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> vfr mailing list
> >> vfr@xxxxxx
> >> For subscription and delivery options:
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> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > vfr mailing list
> > vfr@xxxxxx
> > For subscription and delivery options:
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>
>
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You're correct, my starter relay wasn't bad. Just the fuse holder.
Unfortunately that is all one unit and so the only way to replace the fuse
holder is to replace the whole relay. I will admit I am lucky that the RR
failure didn't fry many more connectors and wiring. What Paul was
describing sounded very similar to the problem I had, that's why I suggested
it.

Tom


On 9/9/07 10:13 AM, "jzh3@xxxxxx" wrote:

> Hi Tom,
>
> But was your starter relay actually bad? I've seen the wiring and
> connectors all fried to hell plenty of times, but never have I seen a
> bad relay. I suppose the corrosion/burning could get so bad that the
> copper terminals on the relay unit could become unusable/unreliable,
> which I think is what you're saying happened to yours, but mostly the
> damage seems to be confined to the wiring harness and terminals. I
> think Paul's probably familiar with those connections, as he's been
> there before--and which is why a two-word answer could be considered
> to be a bit brief!
>
> (There is a common starter-related problem on VFR750s (starter clutch
> failure), but as Paul hasn't mentioned those symptoms, I thought it
> best not to bring it up!)
>
> Ciao,
>
> JZH
> London, UK/Dubai, UAE
> www.vsource.org
>
> On 9/9/07, Thomas Davenport wrote:
>> The reason I suggest the starter relay is not so much for the starting
>> circuit but for the fact it holds the main fuse. When my RR went out it
>> took out the main fuse and in the process cooked the spades that hold the
>> fuse. I chased the problem for some time as the bike would run at times but
>> at others it would lose all power even when on the road. Also when the key
>> was in the on position but not started everything worked, lights, clock etc
>> but when the started button was depressed everything shut down, clock would
>> reset, nothing worked. I thought it might be the starter button, the light
>> switch and was just about to tear into the wiring behind the instrument
>> panel. Luckily I didn't. I noticed the scoring on the main fuse holder
>> when I replaced the fuse after the RR went but didn't think it was as fried
>> as it was. Finally I replaced the started relay mainly to fix the fuse
>> holder and now the bike starts and runs great.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>> On 9/9/07 3:40 AM, "jzh3@xxxxxx" wrote:
>>
>>> Hmm. The speedo/high revs symptom is clearly related to the battery
>>> being duff, not the starting circuit. It means there is no charging
>>> of the battery going on. I can imagine three possible causes:
>>> battery, reg/rec and wiring. Since you can't start the bike, and you
>>> have another battery, swap and see if (a) the bike starts and (b) what
>>> the charging voltage is (using the old reg/rec). If within spec,
>>> congratulations, you've found the problem (the battery). Except that
>>> you really have to give the reg/rec time to heat up, because they can
>>> sometimes fail only when hot. Personally, I would always suspect a
>>> reg/rec, because I hate them...
>>>
>>> The starting-related problem could very well be a different problem,
>>> or related to the non-charging battery. But the starter problem could
>>> not have caused a battery to fail, at least not in any way that I
>>> could imagine. Good luck. It's always a good idea to have a
>>> multimeter to troubleshoot electrical problems, btw.
>>>
>>> Ciao,
>>>
>>> JZH
>>> London, UK/Dubai, UAE
>>> www.vsource.org
>>>
>>> On 9/7/07, Thomas Davenport wrote:
>>>> Starter relay.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 9/6/07 6:28 PM, "Paul.Smith@xxxxxx" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> '94 with 152,210 miles
>>>> Newer style Reg/Rec (it has fins, I'm assuming Honda unit, but it was on
>>>> the
>>>> bike when I bought it 4 years ago). battery is about a year old, i think,
>>>> I
>>>> can't remember.
>>>>
>>>> Here are the symptoms:
>>>> History-- for about 6 months or so, everyone once in a while when I would
>>>> hit the starter button, I would get nothing. Hit it again and it starts
>>>> right up and runs and charges fine. I figured that was a minor problem,
>>>> similar to when the headlights go out when you switch from Hi to Lo due to
>>>> a
>>>> dirty Hi/Lo switch.
>>>> I had also burned up the connection at the main relay/fuse that the Reg/Rec
>>>> connects to in front of the battery about a year ago due to some
>>>> moisture/corrosion. That was cleaned up and new spade connections crimped
>>>> on. The connections seemed intact, although there is evidence of heat
>>>> damage to the connections now, but I don't know if that is recent or
>>>> related
>>>> to this.
>>>>
>>>> Bike was running and charging fine (LED display showed somewhere in the 14v
>>>> range on the way in to work as it has for as long as I remember)
>>>> Got out of work, sit on bike, turn on ignition, electrical system appears
>>>> normal. Hit starter button nothing. Hit it again and I hear a slight pop
>>>> (under the seat? hard to tell with the helmet on)
>>>> and all lights go out. No juice to anything. Turn off the ignition and
>>>> there is still some juice as the clock comes back on.
>>>>
>>>> I can pop start the bike but the speedo gauge is going berserk and the
>>>> voltmeter is all over the place. and I have to keep the revs high to keep
>>>> the bike running.
>>>>
>>>> Whenever the ignition key turns on, the juice drains as you can see the
>>>> clock fade out. The on-board voltmeter is relayed on the ignition switch
>>>> so
>>>> that is of no help.
>>>>
>>>> I can't find any blown fuses.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Any ideas?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Paul in SoCal
>>>> This message is intended solely for the designated recipient(s). It may
>>>> contain
>>>> confidential or proprietary information and may be subject to
>>>> attorney-client
>>>> privilege or other confidentiality protections. If you are not a designated
>>>> recipient you may not review, copy or distribute this message.
>>>> If you receive this in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail
>>>> and delete this message. Thank you.
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> _______________________________________________
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JZH, you are right, the 2-word answer was what I was looking for, even if
that's not what my problem was.

I took a closer look at the wiring and this is what I've found:
The R/R was melted a little bit around the spade of one of the stator
wires.
There was also a little bit of corrosion/damage/burn at the starter relay
where the 12VDC goes in.

I haven't been trouble-shooting yet b/c I don't want to offer up the
"good" battery as a sacrifice yet.
Really I can't butcherize my 97 for a 3-4 day project since I need to use
it every day til the 94 is running.

I have the original unfinned RR from the 97 that I could install (was
working fine when removed) and I'll pick up a new battery in the next
couple of days.
But the first thing I'm doing is re-wiring the main charging wires: New
slightly heavier gauge stator wires from the connection on the right side
of the bike to the RR and new power wire from the RR to the starter relay.
I'm assuming the starter relay is good (based on the new info below and
the fact that the RR showed obvious signs of trouble.

Granted I don't know what caused what but I'm starting back looking at the
RR as the main culprit. Once I have the new battery installed and the
unfinned RR plugged in (until I get a new beefier unit), I'll start it up
and complete the system check.

Thanks all for the continued feedback

Paul in SoCal



Thomas Davenport
Sent by: vfr-bounces@xxxxxx
09/09/2007 09:44 AM

To

cc
vfr@xxxxxx
Subject
Re: electrical gremlin






You're correct, my starter relay wasn't bad. Just the fuse holder.
Unfortunately that is all one unit and so the only way to replace the fuse
holder is to replace the whole relay. I will admit I am lucky that the RR
failure didn't fry many more connectors and wiring. What Paul was
describing sounded very similar to the problem I had, that's why I
suggested
it.

Tom


On 9/9/07 10:13 AM, "jzh3@xxxxxx" wrote:

> Hi Tom,
>
> But was your starter relay actually bad? I've seen the wiring and
> connectors all fried to hell plenty of times, but never have I seen a
> bad relay. I suppose the corrosion/burning could get so bad that the
> copper terminals on the relay unit could become unusable/unreliable,
> which I think is what you're saying happened to yours, but mostly the
> damage seems to be confined to the wiring harness and terminals. I
> think Paul's probably familiar with those connections, as he's been
> there before--and which is why a two-word answer could be considered
> to be a bit brief!
>
> (There is a common starter-related problem on VFR750s (starter clutch
> failure), but as Paul hasn't mentioned those symptoms, I thought it
> best not to bring it up!)
>
> Ciao,
>
> JZH
> London, UK/Dubai, UAE
> www.vsource.org
>
> On 9/9/07, Thomas Davenport wrote:
>> The reason I suggest the starter relay is not so much for the starting
>> circuit but for the fact it holds the main fuse. When my RR went out
it
>> took out the main fuse and in the process cooked the spades that hold
the
>> fuse. I chased the problem for some time as the bike would run at
times but
>> at others it would lose all power even when on the road. Also when the
key
>> was in the on position but not started everything worked, lights, clock
etc
>> but when the started button was depressed everything shut down, clock
would
>> reset, nothing worked. I thought it might be the starter button, the
light
>> switch and was just about to tear into the wiring behind the instrument
>> panel. Luckily I didn't. I noticed the scoring on the main fuse
holder
>> when I replaced the fuse after the RR went but didn't think it was as
fried
>> as it was. Finally I replaced the started relay mainly to fix the fuse
>> holder and now the bike starts and runs great.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>> On 9/9/07 3:40 AM, "jzh3@xxxxxx" wrote:
>>
>>> Hmm. The speedo/high revs symptom is clearly related to the battery
>>> being duff, not the starting circuit. It means there is no charging
>>> of the battery going on. I can imagine three possible causes:
>>> battery, reg/rec and wiring. Since you can't start the bike, and you
>>> have another battery, swap and see if (a) the bike starts and (b) what
>>> the charging voltage is (using the old reg/rec). If within spec,
>>> congratulations, you've found the problem (the battery). Except that
>>> you really have to give the reg/rec time to heat up, because they can
>>> sometimes fail only when hot. Personally, I would always suspect a
>>> reg/rec, because I hate them...
>>>
>>> The starting-related problem could very well be a different problem,
>>> or related to the non-charging battery. But the starter problem could
>>> not have caused a battery to fail, at least not in any way that I
>>> could imagine. Good luck. It's always a good idea to have a
>>> multimeter to troubleshoot electrical problems, btw.
>>>
>>> Ciao,
>>>
>>> JZH
>>> London, UK/Dubai, UAE
>>> www.vsource.org
>>>
>>> On 9/7/07, Thomas Davenport wrote:
>>>> Starter relay.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 9/6/07 6:28 PM, "Paul.Smith@xxxxxx"
wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> '94 with 152,210 miles
>>>> Newer style Reg/Rec (it has fins, I'm assuming Honda unit, but it was
on
>>>> the
>>>> bike when I bought it 4 years ago). battery is about a year old, i
think,
>>>> I
>>>> can't remember.
>>>>
>>>> Here are the symptoms:
>>>> History-- for about 6 months or so, everyone once in a while when I
would
>>>> hit the starter button, I would get nothing. Hit it again and it
starts
>>>> right up and runs and charges fine. I figured that was a minor
problem,
>>>> similar to when the headlights go out when you switch from Hi to Lo
due to
>>>> a
>>>> dirty Hi/Lo switch.
>>>> I had also burned up the connection at the main relay/fuse that the
Reg/Rec
>>>> connects to in front of the battery about a year ago due to some
>>>> moisture/corrosion. That was cleaned up and new spade connections
crimped
>>>> on. The connections seemed intact, although there is evidence of
heat
>>>> damage to the connections now, but I don't know if that is recent or
>>>> related
>>>> to this.
>>>>
>>>> Bike was running and charging fine (LED display showed somewhere in
the 14v
>>>> range on the way in to work as it has for as long as I remember)
>>>> Got out of work, sit on bike, turn on ignition, electrical system
appears
>>>> normal. Hit starter button nothing. Hit it again and I hear a
slight pop
>>>> (under the seat? hard to tell with the helmet on)
>>>> and all lights go out. No juice to anything. Turn off the ignition
and
>>>> there is still some juice as the clock comes back on.
>>>>
>>>> I can pop start the bike but the speedo gauge is going berserk and
the
>>>> voltmeter is all over the place. and I have to keep the revs high to
keep
>>>> the bike running.
>>>>
>>>> Whenever the ignition key turns on, the juice drains as you can see
the
>>>> clock fade out. The on-board voltmeter is relayed on the ignition
switch
>>>> so
>>>> that is of no help.
>>>>
>>>> I can't find any blown fuses.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Any ideas?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Paul in SoCal
>>>> This message is intended solely for the designated recipient(s). It
may
>>>> contain
>>>> confidential or proprietary information and may be subject to
>>>> attorney-client
>>>> privilege or other confidentiality protections. If you are not a
designated
>>>> recipient you may not review, copy or distribute this message.
>>>> If you receive this in error, please notify the sender by reply
e-mail
>>>> and delete this message. Thank you.
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> vfr mailing list
>>>> vfr@xxxxxx
>>>> For subscription and delivery options:
>>>> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> vfr mailing list
>>>> vfr@xxxxxx
>>>> For subscription and delivery options:
>>>> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> vfr mailing list
>>> vfr@xxxxxx
>>> For subscription and delivery options:
>>> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>>
>>

_______________________________________________
vfr mailing list
vfr@xxxxxx
For subscription and delivery options:
https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr

This message is intended solely for the designated recipient(s). It may contain
confidential or proprietary information and may be subject to attorney-client
privilege or other confidentiality protections. If you are not a designated
recipient you may not review, copy or distribute this message.
If you receive this in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail
and delete this message. Thank you.

_______________________________________________
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For subscription and delivery options:
https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr

Paul,

As you know, if you have the luxury of time, it is always better to replace
just one thing at a time if you're still troubleshooting a problem...I,
however, tend to do everything at once!

People sometimes delete the stator connector entirely, btw, (as I did) as it
isn't really necessary and can be a source of corrosion. When I re-wired,
re-located and up-graded my FP's charging system (all at the same time) I
had wanted to replace all of the wires in the system with high-quality
larger gauge wire, but the problem with the stator is that beyond that
connector the yellow stator wires become wound in with the stator wires
under the LHS cover, so I couldn't actually upgrade ALL of the wiring.
Everything else is new, though.

Other mods included mounting the new, finned reg/rec directly in the
airstream under the bottom triple clamp (in place of the horn, which was
replaced with FIAMMs mounted elsewhere), new reg/rec connector plug (from
the Honda repair kit) and wiring the reg/rec directly to the battery
(through a separate fuse). Everything now works as it should, but having
done everything rather unscientifically, I have no idea which mod was the
"golden" one. I should also add that although I have had reg/recs fail on
two other VFRs, my FP never suffered that fate--I was re-wiring much of the
bike anyway and just decided to upgrade everything I could. Good luck.

Ciao,

JZH
London, UK/Dubai, UAE
www.vsource.org

On 9/11/07, Paul.Smith@xxxxxx wrote:
>
>
> JZH, you are right, the 2-word answer was what I was looking for, even if
> that's not what my problem was.
>
> I took a closer look at the wiring and this is what I've found:
> The R/R was melted a little bit around the spade of one of the stator
> wires.
> There was also a little bit of corrosion/damage/burn at the starter relay
> where the 12VDC goes in.
>
> I haven't been trouble-shooting yet b/c I don't want to offer up the
> "good" battery as a sacrifice yet.
> Really I can't butcherize my 97 for a 3-4 day project since I need to use
> it every day til the 94 is running.
>
> I have the original unfinned RR from the 97 that I could install (was
> working fine when removed) and I'll pick up a new battery in the next couple
> of days.
> But the first thing I'm doing is re-wiring the main charging wires: New
> slightly heavier gauge stator wires from the connection on the right side of
> the bike to the RR and new power wire from the RR to the starter relay.
> I'm assuming the starter relay is good (based on the new info below and
> the fact that the RR showed obvious signs of trouble.
>
> Granted I don't know what caused what but I'm starting back looking at the
> RR as the main culprit. Once I have the new battery installed and the
> unfinned RR plugged in (until I get a new beefier unit), I'll start it up
> and complete the system check.
>
> Thanks all for the continued feedback
>
> Paul in SoCal
>
>
> *Thomas Davenport *
> Sent by: vfr-bounces@xxxxxx
>
> 09/09/2007 09:44 AM
> To
> cc
> vfr@xxxxxx Subject
> Re: electrical gremlin
>
>
>
>
> You're correct, my starter relay wasn't bad. Just the fuse holder.
> Unfortunately that is all one unit and so the only way to replace the fuse
> holder is to replace the whole relay. I will admit I am lucky that the RR
> failure didn't fry many more connectors and wiring. What Paul was
> describing sounded very similar to the problem I had, that's why I
> suggested
> it.
>
> Tom
>
>
> On 9/9/07 10:13 AM, "jzh3@xxxxxx" wrote:
>
> > Hi Tom,
> >
> > But was your starter relay actually bad? I've seen the wiring and
> > connectors all fried to hell plenty of times, but never have I seen a
> > bad relay. I suppose the corrosion/burning could get so bad that the
> > copper terminals on the relay unit could become unusable/unreliable,
> > which I think is what you're saying happened to yours, but mostly the
> > damage seems to be confined to the wiring harness and terminals. I
> > think Paul's probably familiar with those connections, as he's been
> > there before--and which is why a two-word answer could be considered
> > to be a bit brief!
> >
> > (There is a common starter-related problem on VFR750s (starter clutch
> > failure), but as Paul hasn't mentioned those symptoms, I thought it
> > best not to bring it up!)
> >
> > Ciao,
> >
> > JZH
> > London, UK/Dubai, UAE
> > www.vsource.org
> >
> > On 9/9/07, Thomas Davenport wrote:
> >> The reason I suggest the starter relay is not so much for the starting
> >> circuit but for the fact it holds the main fuse. When my RR went out
> it
> >> took out the main fuse and in the process cooked the spades that hold
> the
> >> fuse. I chased the problem for some time as the bike would run at
> times but
> >> at others it would lose all power even when on the road. Also when the
> key
> >> was in the on position but not started everything worked, lights, clock
> etc
> >> but when the started button was depressed everything shut down, clock
> would
> >> reset, nothing worked. I thought it might be the starter button, the
> light
> >> switch and was just about to tear into the wiring behind the instrument
> >> panel. Luckily I didn't. I noticed the scoring on the main fuse
> holder
> >> when I replaced the fuse after the RR went but didn't think it was as
> fried
> >> as it was. Finally I replaced the started relay mainly to fix the fuse
> >> holder and now the bike starts and runs great.
> >>
> >> Tom
> >>
> >>
> >> On 9/9/07 3:40 AM, "jzh3@xxxxxx" wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hmm. The speedo/high revs symptom is clearly related to the battery
> >>> being duff, not the starting circuit. It means there is no charging
> >>> of the battery going on. I can imagine three possible causes:
> >>> battery, reg/rec and wiring. Since you can't start the bike, and you
> >>> have another battery, swap and see if (a) the bike starts and (b) what
> >>> the charging voltage is (using the old reg/rec). If within spec,
> >>> congratulations, you've found the problem (the battery). Except that
> >>> you really have to give the reg/rec time to heat up, because they can
> >>> sometimes fail only when hot. Personally, I would always suspect a
> >>> reg/rec, because I hate them...
> >>>
> >>> The starting-related problem could very well be a different problem,
> >>> or related to the non-charging battery. But the starter problem could
> >>> not have caused a battery to fail, at least not in any way that I
> >>> could imagine. Good luck. It's always a good idea to have a
> >>> multimeter to troubleshoot electrical problems, btw.
> >>>
> >>> Ciao,
> >>>
> >>> JZH
> >>> London, UK/Dubai, UAE
> >>> www.vsource.org
> >>>
> >>> On 9/7/07, Thomas Davenport wrote:
> >>>> Starter relay.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 9/6/07 6:28 PM, "Paul.Smith@xxxxxx"
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> '94 with 152,210 miles
> >>>> Newer style Reg/Rec (it has fins, I'm assuming Honda unit, but it was
> on
> >>>> the
> >>>> bike when I bought it 4 years ago). battery is about a year old, i
> think,
> >>>> I
> >>>> can't remember.
> >>>>
> >>>> Here are the symptoms:
> >>>> History-- for about 6 months or so, everyone once in a while when I
> would
> >>>> hit the starter button, I would get nothing. Hit it again and it
> starts
> >>>> right up and runs and charges fine. I figured that was a minor
> problem,
> >>>> similar to when the headlights go out when you switch from Hi to Lo
> due to
> >>>> a
> >>>> dirty Hi/Lo switch.
> >>>> I had also burned up the connection at the main relay/fuse that the
> Reg/Rec
> >>>> connects to in front of the battery about a year ago due to some
> >>>> moisture/corrosion. That was cleaned up and new spade connections
> crimped
> >>>> on. The connections seemed intact, although there is evidence of
> heat
> >>>> damage to the connections now, but I don't know if that is recent or
> >>>> related
> >>>> to this.
> >>>>
> >>>> Bike was running and charging fine (LED display showed somewhere in
> the 14v
> >>>> range on the way in to work as it has for as long as I remember)
> >>>> Got out of work, sit on bike, turn on ignition, electrical system
> appears
> >>>> normal. Hit starter button nothing. Hit it again and I hear a
> slight pop
> >>>> (under the seat? hard to tell with the helmet on)
> >>>> and all lights go out. No juice to anything. Turn off the ignition
> and
> >>>> there is still some juice as the clock comes back on.
> >>>>
> >>>> I can pop start the bike but the speedo gauge is going berserk and
> the
> >>>> voltmeter is all over the place. and I have to keep the revs high to
> keep
> >>>> the bike running.
> >>>>
> >>>> Whenever the ignition key turns on, the juice drains as you can see
> the
> >>>> clock fade out. The on-board voltmeter is relayed on the ignition
> switch
> >>>> so
> >>>> that is of no help.
> >>>>
> >>>> I can't find any blown fuses.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Any ideas?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Paul in SoCal
> >>>> This message is intended solely for the designated recipient(s). It
> may
> >>>> contain
> >>>> confidential or proprietary information and may be subject to
> >>>> attorney-client
> >>>> privilege or other confidentiality protections. If you are not a
> designated
> >>>> recipient you may not review, copy or distribute this message.
> >>>> If you receive this in error, please notify the sender by reply
> e-mail
> >>>> and delete this message. Thank you.
> >>>>
> >>>> ________________________________
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> vfr mailing list
> >>>> vfr@xxxxxx
> >>>> For subscription and delivery options:
> >>>> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> vfr mailing list
> >>>> vfr@xxxxxx
> >>>> For subscription and delivery options:
> >>>> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> vfr mailing list
> >>> vfr@xxxxxx
> >>> For subscription and delivery options:
> >>> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
> >>
> >>
>
> _______________________________________________
> vfr mailing list
> vfr@xxxxxx
> For subscription and delivery options:
> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>
> This message is intended solely for the designated recipient(s). It may contain
> confidential or proprietary information and may be subject to attorney-client
> privilege or other confidentiality protections. If you are not a designated
> recipient you may not review, copy or distribute this message.
> If you receive this in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail
> and delete this message. Thank you.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> For subscription and delivery options:
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