RE: vfr Digest, Vol 43, Issue 8

Well, here we go again...yet another List Digest that has virtually nothing
to do with the intended subject of this list. Does anyone remember that
this is supposed to be a forum for discussion of issues related to Honda's
VF/VFR line of two-wheeled nirvana delivery vehicles? The onerous Florida
legislation was an appropriate NVFRC topic in its original form, but now we
find ourselves debating the virtues of our police officers. How about a
thread to unveil our collective opinion of the Iraq war, or the benefits of
double vs. triple-pane windows?

Andrew Bertsch
'99VFR800FI/Sargent
Cogito Ergo Zoom
Sidney, Ohio
abertsch1@xxxxxx

-----Original Message-----
From: vfr-bounces@xxxxxx [mailto:vfr-bounces@xxxxxx] On Behalf Of
vfr-request@xxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 10:05 AM
To: vfr@xxxxxx
Subject: vfr Digest, Vol 43, Issue 8


Send vfr mailing list submissions to
vfr@xxxxxx

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
vfr-request@xxxxxx

You can reach the person managing the list at
vfr-owner@xxxxxx

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
"Re: Contents of vfr digest..."


Today's Topics:

1. RE: vfr Digest, Vol 43, Issue 3 (Bob Bielak)
2. RE: 87 VFR750 charging info, Mr Smith anyone? / No Mr.
Smith....... (Bob Bielak)
3. Re: Heads up warning to FL members. (Bob Chappuis)
4. RE: vfr Digest, Vol 43, Issue 3 (JES_VFR)
5. Re: shipping deal NVFRC (JES_VFR)
6. RE: vfr Digest, Vol 43, Issue 3 (Bob Bielak)
7. Re: My VFR commute just got shortened... (Mathew Roth)
8. Re: vfr Digest, Vol 43, Issue 3 (jerry)
9. Re: vfr Digest, Vol 43, Issue 3 (T)
10. Re: vfr Digest, Vol 43, Issue 3 (John Alexander)
11. Re: Getting Screwed By The Average Cop (T)
12. RE: vfr Digest, Vol 43, Issue 3 (Bob Bielak)
13. Re: vfr Digest, Vol 43, Issue 3 (jerry)
14. Re: vfr Digest, Vol 43, Issue 3 (jerry)
15. Re: vfr Digest, Vol 43, Issue 3 (T)
16. Re: shipping deal NVFRC / Great Info..... (mrydr@xxxxxx)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 16:02:50 -0400
From: "Bob Bielak"
Subject: RE: vfr Digest, Vol 43, Issue 3
To:
Message-ID: <20071003200047.A15472A9DA8@xxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

> Don't the requirements vary inversely with the amount
> of money available to the department?

Not necessarily. There are agencies with very small budgets and very strict
hiring standards (several in my immediate area), and then there are agencies
with budgets the size of the Sears Tower with much lower 'minimum
requirements'. Therefore, no, there is no direct correlation between a
departments annual budget and its minimum requirements for applying for
employment as a police officer or police cadet.

> It seems to that the problems are not limited to 'podunk' towns.
>
> Did anyone hear the piece on NPR about Chicago and how the department
> handles citizen complaints? Or did anyone see the front page of the
> Denver Post and the article about how they hide information on cop's
> wrongdoing?

Did you hear the one about the non-LEO who drown her two kids in the
bathtub? What about the two 'non-cops' who drove a stolen pickup containing
21 grams of methamphetamine, scales and packaging material to the county
jail to visit a friend? Or maybe the one about the 52YO man from New Jersey
who used his 4YO granddaughter to steal a purse?

Yep, there are people in all walks of life that do stupid things. But for
every 'bad cop' story you find, there is an exponentially (much) larger
number of 'bad not-a-cop' incidents.

> Actually, I think that the main reason why smart people are not hired
> is that they are too hard to control.
>
> The upper ranks usually/sometimes/much of the time get their positions
> on the basis if seniority, not ability. It is much easier for them to
> control people who cannot think.
>
> e.g. If a cop follows the procedure manual in a situation and it goes
> to hell and someone gets hurt, all is well as long as he followed the
manual.
>
> If the same cop doesn't follow the manual but rather displays some
> common sense and resolves the situation without incident or injury and
> leaves everyone relatively happy with the outcome, he may well be in
> serious trouble.

You obviously have much to learn about the hiring process and day-to-day
politics occurring within the confines of the average LE agency. How about
you share your opinions AFTER you get hired and have actual, credible
knowledge based on first-hand experience?

bob@xxxxxx




------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 16:05:00 -0400
From: "Bob Bielak"
Subject: RE: 87 VFR750 charging info, Mr Smith anyone? / No Mr.
Smith.......
To:
Message-ID: <20071003200256.01EB22A917C@xxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Anybody remember when Brandon Monnig baited along that little fake check
uttering turdball? Now that was funny! :)

bob@xxxxxx

_____

From: vfr-bounces@xxxxxx [mailto:vfr-bounces@xxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Tom Komjathy
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 4:08 PM
To: george duchaine; doug@xxxxxx; mrydr@xxxxxx; rc36ride@xxxxxx;
vfrlist@xxxxxx; vfrlist@xxxxxx; vfr@xxxxxx
Subject: Re: 87 VFR750 charging info, Mr Smith anyone? / No Mr. Smith.......


Yup, took the check to Wachovia (it is one with their logo) and turned it
and the e-mail information over to their security, stop loss program. Now
I'm trying to get the little weasel to give me his phone # and a current
address. If the little bastard bites, we got him.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
http://lists.cs.wisc.edu/archive/vfr...d084/attachmen
t.html

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 15:16:31 -0500
From: Bob Chappuis
Subject: Re: Heads up warning to FL members.
To: "John Alexander"
Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
Message-ID: <294279815.20071003151631@xxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Wednesday, October 3, 2007, 1:02:17 PM, you wrote:
> On 10/3/07, ForsaleinFL@xxxxxx wrote:
>> Really?? Really? Seeing a biker ride a wheelie gives us all a "bad
>> name"? REALLY?
>>
>> I don't buy it, personally. It MIGHT give HIM a bad name, if the
>> viewer isn't into that sort of stuff, but it doesn't rub off on me.
>> Personally, I kinda like the stunter thing. Their abilities amazes
>> me, actually.
>>
>> As far as the "seeking out audiences"...I'm OK with that too. If
>> they do it where no one can see, where's the fun in that?


> TROLL ALERT!

> JohnA in LA
> _______________________________________________

Thanks, saved me some key strokes...



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 16:17:21 -0400
From: JES_VFR
Subject: RE: vfr Digest, Vol 43, Issue 3
To: "Brad Berson"
Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071003160050.027b5588@xxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed;
x-avg-checked=avg-ok-73A4835

At 01:09 PM 10/3/2007, you wrote:

> > the fact of the matter is that the minimum requirements
> > to APPLY for a LE position are nothing more than the
> > first step in the weeding out of the most OBVIOUS
>
>Ruling out the practices of "podunk towns" is little comfort to me,
>since those podunk towns make up the greater portion of the land here
>in the USA. And I've seen what gets hired and where. I'm not
>impressed. I'm not even impressed by the big city cops frankly, but
>that has more to do with actions than education.
>
> > With regard to 'controlling situations', most commands issued and
> > actions taken by police officers are largely focused at maintaining
> > the safety of the officer and the public, not (simply) 'for the sake
> > of maintaining compliance' (i.e., compliance with a law or
> > ordinance).
>
>You're reading between the lines where I chose not to go into detail,
>and you read wrong. In context the statement was to maintain
>compliance with the officer, particularly since on the spot, law may
>not have much to do with anything. And yes, for the officer's safety.
>I'd like to believe it's for the public's safety too, but I'm sure
>that's quite secondary.
>
>Just the same, being threatened by such an officer with trumped up
>criminal charges and arrest for having the temerity to question why as
>a person innocent of any wrong-doing you are being held and being
>treated like a perp, is no way to provide the public with a positive
>public image of the department.
>
>-Brad

Yup been there done that, Local borough cop with Hard on against bikes.
Psycho paranoid chick off her medications and me on my bike. He's about
ready to make me cross into the red zone and put him out
of the worlds misery, when the Chief (who I know) shows up and puts
Office notaclue on traffic duty.

The chief and I had a long discussion latter that night about
personal control.


JohnS
A Dragon Ascending
"Forging my body in the Fires of my Will"



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 16:18:56 -0400
From: JES_VFR
Subject: Re: shipping deal NVFRC
To: james greer
Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071003160648.0282f2d8@xxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed;
x-avg-checked=avg-ok-73A4835

At 02:04 PM 10/3/2007, you wrote:

>Trying to ship a bike from KY. Did a search and found USHIP.COM. You
>propose a bid, and then entertain offers. Federal shippers had
>originally offered the shipment for $796, but Rolling Thunder
>Motorcycle shippers beat it by over $250!
>
>Jimbob
>Cruisin in Monterey

What? Come ON....
Say it with me, "Road Trip, Roooaaaaddd TTTTTrrrriiiipppp,
ROADTRIP!!!!!!!!!!!"

the cheapest shipping there is.


JohnS
A Dragon Ascending
"Forging my body in the Fires of my Will"



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 16:29:45 -0400
From: "Bob Bielak"
Subject: RE: vfr Digest, Vol 43, Issue 3
To:
Message-ID: <20071003202742.47DE72AA227@xxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"


> Psycho paranoid chick off her medications and me on my bike.

So, JohnS, what were you doing riding around with a psycho paranoid chick
off her medications on your bike? :)

bob@xxxxxx




------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 16:39:13 -0400
From: "Mathew Roth"
Subject: Re: My VFR commute just got shortened...
To:
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Thanks Mr. Kershaw,

Good news is I don't have to move...I already live in Northern
Virginia..hence the weekly commute to Pittsburgh...sometimes my life is not
just only confusing to me...

From: "Matthew Kershaw"
Subject: Re: My VFR commute just got shortened...
To: !vfr
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Congrats, Matt, be sure to send me your new address when you move so I can
get those shims back to you in a bit. :)


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
http://lists.cs.wisc.edu/archive/vfr...93e7/attachmen
t.html

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 14:51:27 -0600
From: jerry
Subject: Re: vfr Digest, Vol 43, Issue 3
To: vfr@xxxxxx
Message-ID: <200710031451.27987.motor_ref@xxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Wed October 3 2007 2:02:50 pm Bob Bielak wrote:


> Did you hear the one about the non-LEO who drown her two kids in the
> bathtub?

That wasn't Susan Smith was it? It certainly wasn't the guy in Detroit who
put his family in the car, put their seat belts on and drove the car into
the
river because he knew that they wouldn't be able to take care of themselves
after he killed himself.

There are a lot of dangerously crazy people out there.

> What about the two 'non-cops' who drove a stolen pickup
> containing 21 grams of methamphetamine, scales and packaging material to
> the county jail to visit a friend? Or maybe the one about the 52YO man
> from New Jersey who used his 4YO granddaughter to steal a purse?

Is this supposed to excuse the bad cops and their abuses and crimes?

> Yep, there are people in all walks of life that do stupid things. But
> for every 'bad cop' story you find, there is an exponentially (much)
> larger number of 'bad not-a-cop' incidents.

So.................?

The difference between cops and crazies is that the cops have taken an oath
to
be the good guys. Too many of them ignore their oath and bring shame on
their brother. And their departments don't do much about it.

> > Actually, I think that the main reason why smart people are not
> > hired is that they are too hard to control.
> >
> > The upper ranks usually/sometimes/much of the time get their
> > positions on the basis if seniority, not ability. It is much easier
> > for them to control people who cannot think.
> >
> > e.g. If a cop follows the procedure manual in a situation and it
> > goes to hell and someone gets hurt, all is well as long as he
> > followed the manual.
>
> > If the same cop doesn't follow the manual but rather displays some
> > common sense and resolves the situation without incident or injury
> > and leaves everyone relatively happy with the outcome, he may well
> > be in serious trouble.
>
> You obviously have much to learn about the hiring process and
> day-to-day politics occurring within the confines of the average LE
agency.

I wouldn't be too sure of that if I were you. The only thing that you know
for sure about me is that I am on this list.

> How about
> you share your opinions AFTER you get hired and have actual, credible
> knowledge based on first-hand experience?

And after having issued the proclamation that first hand experience is the
only way to learn, I assume you will be the judge of the quality of that
experience? Right?

That pretty well leaves you in control of everyone's reality doesn't it?

Nobody else's opinion matters until you have approved it. Correct?

With this attitude, you would make a good cop. But I think you are probably

too smart.

--

Jerry

"It doesn't matter what you do in the bedroom as long as you don't do it in
the street and scare the horses." --Mrs. Patrick Campbell 1865-1940


------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 17:08:09 -0400
From: T
Subject: Re: vfr Digest, Vol 43, Issue 3
To: Bob Bielak
Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
Message-ID: <470404B9.302@xxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Bob Bielak scribbled:

> Did you hear the one about the non-LEO who drown her two kids in the
> bathtub? What about the two 'non-cops' who drove a stolen pickup
> containing 21 grams of methamphetamine,

The point is, LEO's *should* be held to a higher standard than the
general
population. The problem is that the average cop is just that, average, and
/not/ held to any higher standard in hiring or in job performance (with the
probable exception of revenue generation.)


In fact I am /so/ impressed with the average cop, I'm designing hardware
to
mount a Valentine One /and/ a Laser Blinder on the front of the bike.


------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 14:15:36 -0700
From: "John Alexander"
Subject: Re: vfr Digest, Vol 43, Issue 3
Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hey folks, please give digest replies a subject.

TIA, JohnA

On 10/3/07, T wrote:
> Bob Bielak scribbled:
>
> > Did you hear the one about the non-LEO who drown her two kids in the
> > bathtub? What about the two 'non-cops' who drove a stolen pickup
> > containing 21 grams of methamphetamine,
>
> The point is, LEO's *should* be held to a higher standard than the
> general population. The problem is that the average cop is just that,
> average, and /not/ held to any higher standard in hiring or in job
> performance (with the probable exception of revenue generation.)
>
>
> In fact I am /so/ impressed with the average cop, I'm designing
> hardware to mount a Valentine One /and/ a Laser Blinder on the front
> of the bike. _______________________________________________
> vfr mailing list
> vfr@xxxxxx
> For subscription and delivery options:
> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>


------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 17:24:26 -0400
From: T
Subject: Re: Getting Screwed By The Average Cop
To: John Alexander
Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
Message-ID: <4704088A.80407@xxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

John Alexander scribbled:

> Hey folks, please give digest replies a subject.

As you wish.


------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 17:27:25 -0400
From: "Bob Bielak"
Subject: RE: vfr Digest, Vol 43, Issue 3
To:
Message-ID: <20071003212522.63F352AA7B9@xxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"


> That wasn't Susan Smith was it? It certainly wasn't the guy in
> Detroit
....

No, not Smith or DeLisle.

I'm talking about the incident that occurred less than 48 hours ago:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071003/...;_ylt=ArILKmqS
dmTU85mUfthUoq5G2ocA


> ... the guy in Detroit who put his family in the car, put their seat
> belts
on and drove
> the car into the river because he knew that they wouldn't be able to
> take
care of themselves
> after he killed himself.

> Is this supposed to excuse the bad cops and their abuses and crimes?

No, it's supposed to make the point that you're referring to the exception
rather than the rule, yet presenting it as the norm.

>> You obviously have much to learn about the hiring process and
>> day-to-day politics occurring within the confines of the average LE
agency.

> I wouldn't be too sure of that if I were you. The only thing that you
know for sure about me is that I am on this list.

Based on the content of your recently shared expositions, I'm fairly secure
in my previous assessment.

> And after having issued the proclamation that first hand experience is the
only way
> to learn, I assume you will be the judge of the quality of that
experience? Right?

I'm reasonably confident that I have a *wee* bit better understanding about
the hiring standards and daily politics within LE agencies than most,
including you.

> That pretty well leaves you in control of everyone's reality doesn't it?

I'm not asking to be in control of your reality. I'm just hoping that it
will encourage you to refrain from posting blatantly inaccurate comments.

> With this attitude, you would make a good cop. But I think you are
probably too smart.

Thanks. Next time I see my Chief, I'll ask him if he agrees with you.

bob@xxxxxx




------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 14:03:38 -0600
From: jerry
Subject: Re: vfr Digest, Vol 43, Issue 3
To: vfr@xxxxxx
Message-ID: <200710031403.38527.motor_ref@xxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Wed October 3 2007 1:25:39 pm jzh3@xxxxxx wrote:
> Jer, I usually don't defend the reputations of American cops, but even
> as sophomoric generalizations go, this is idiotic. Thanks for running
> that flag up the pole for everyone to see, though...

No problem. Too many people believe that the cops are always the good guys.

I think that is mostly true because they want to live in the delusion that
the
cops will protect them. I think that is because too many people are afraid
to look reality in the face.

> Maybe it's time for a fresh topic--something remotely to do with VFRs,
> perhaps?

OK. Where can I get a good quality carbon fiber front fender for a 5th gen?

--

Jerry

"It doesn't matter what you do in the bedroom as long as you don't do it in
the street and scare the horses."
--Mrs. Patrick Campbell 1865-1940


------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 17:58:42 -0600
From: jerry
Subject: Re: vfr Digest, Vol 43, Issue 3
To: vfr@xxxxxx
Message-ID: <200710031758.42074.motor_ref@xxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Wed October 3 2007 3:27:25 pm Bob Bielak wrote:

As T wrote

"? ?The point is, LEO's *should* be held to a higher standard than the
general
population. The problem is that the average cop is just that, average, and
/not/ held to any higher standard in hiring or in job performance (with the
probable exception of revenue generation."

> > Is this supposed to excuse the bad cops and their abuses and crimes?
> No, it's supposed to make the point that you're referring to the exception
> rather than the rule, yet presenting it as the norm.

I don't present it as the norm even though I suspect that abuse of power is
much more wide spread than any of us know.

What I wonder is why the "good cops" don't get rid of the bad cops.

Perhaps you can tell us why this doesn't happen.

I would be very interested in knowing.

By knowing and not doing anything, they become just as guilty.

And then they all get the bad rap. And they all deserve it if they don't
clean their own house.

Unless, of course, you just want to forget about the oath that goes with the

badge.


> > With this attitude, you would make a good cop. But I think you are
> probably too smart.
>
> Thanks. Next time I see my Chief, I'll ask him if he agrees with you.

You might ask him what he thinks about getting rid of bad cops. I would
like
to hear his answer, too.

Maybe it would be better than what goes on in Chicago or in Denver.

You better be careful, though. He may decide that you are too much of a
problem to control.

rotfl

--

Jerry

"It doesn't matter what you do in the bedroom as long as you don't do it in
the street and scare the horses."
--Mrs. Patrick Campbell 1865-1940



------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 22:18:59 -0400
From: T
Subject: Re: vfr Digest, Vol 43, Issue 3
To: motor_ref@xxxxxx
Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
Message-ID: <47044D93.3000108@xxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

jerry scribbled:

> I don't present it as the norm even though I suspect that abuse of power
is
> much more wide spread than any of us know.

Keep in mind that 'perjury by cop' is /the/ number one unprosecuted crime

in America.

Do a Google on that term see what the top of the iceberg looks like.



Anyone mount a Laser Blinder on their bike yet?


------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 10:04:38 -0400
From: mrydr@xxxxxx
Subject: Re: shipping deal NVFRC / Great Info.....
To: greer_james@xxxxxx, vfr@xxxxxx
Message-ID: <8C9D4A6A2F59D02-CC8-AC4@xxxxxx-mf01.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

-----Original Message-----
From: james greer
To: vfr@xxxxxx
Sent: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 2:04 pm
Subject: shipping deal NVFRC



Trying to ship a bike from KY.
OK JimBob,

What beginner bike did you settle on?

Inquiring minds want to know..........

TIA







________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
http://mail.aol.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
http://lists.cs.wisc.edu/archive/vfr...83d4/attachmen
t.html

------------------------------

_______________________________________________
vfr mailing list vfr@xxxxxx
For subscription and delivery options:
https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr

End of vfr Digest, Vol 43, Issue 8
**********************************

--
I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users.
It has removed 11835 spam emails to date.
Paying users do not have this message in their emails.
Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len


_______________________________________________
vfr mailing list
vfr@xxxxxx
For subscription and delivery options:
https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr

Andrew Bertsch wrote:

>Well, here we go again...yet another List Digest that has virtually nothing
>to do with the intended subject of this list. Does anyone remember that
>this is supposed to be a forum for discussion of issues related to Honda's
>VF/VFR line of two-wheeled nirvana delivery vehicles? The onerous Florida
>legislation was an appropriate NVFRC topic in its original form, but now we
>find ourselves debating the virtues of our police officers. How about a
>thread to unveil our collective opinion of the Iraq war, or the benefits of
>double vs. triple-pane windows?
>
>Andrew Bertsch
>'99VFR800FI/Sargent
>Cogito Ergo Zoom
>Sidney, Ohio
>abertsch1@xxxxxx
>
>
>
>
>
Exactly how does one fit triple pane windows on a VFR?

Enquiring minds, and all that...

--

-Fred W

'98 Honda VFR800Fi SPORTtourer
'05 Yammi FJR1300 sportTOURER
'00 Aprilia Pegaso AdventureTourer

_______________________________________________
vfr mailing list
vfr@xxxxxx
For subscription and delivery options:
https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr