This is what happens when you don't change your oil

From another forum. Interesting but I am not a petroleum engineer. Ken?

JohnA

---

This is what happens if you don't change your oil...

Thought some people may be interested to know I was reading a study
where engine oil of different ages (mileage) was run on a test bed rig
comprising a single cam and bucket follower and the friction and wear
measured. The engine oil was aged by running it in gasoline taxis in
Las Vegas and tested at regular intervals.

http://www.sae.org/events/pfs/brochureb.pdf.

The study concluded that "as in the previous study the results showed
that the aged engine oils provide lower friction and much improved wear
protection capability. these improvements were observed as early as the
3000 mile drain interval and continued to the 15,000 mile drain
interval"

The results for the wear rate are astonishing, basically a new oil for
example RO 243 would produce 0.14 mg of wear (material worn away from
the shim and bucket in a 50 hour test), oil at the 3 and 5000 mile
drain interval produced 0.02mg (less wear) and oil at the 15,000 mile
interval produced no wear that was measurable by the apparatus.

The other oils tested showed a similar result.

Chemical analysis showed the development of a chemical produced as the
oil is used which is formulated as ZDDP (a common oil additive found in
nearly evey oil i believe) decomposes. The new chemical is believed to
be responsible for the low wear rates and low friction. Also note the
viscosity incerased upto 40% by the end of teh 15,0000 mile test
however friction decreased. my guess here is friction is reduced as no
contact takes place between the components and hence the zero wear
results as well. (the increase in viscosity will also help prevent
contact).

My own experience of old cars and bikes - e.g my old diesel peugeot
diesel with 180,000 miles on the clock (hardly if at all saw an oil
change in the last 40-60,000 miles) and my friends running honda XR4's
with never an oil change and never any problems makes me wonder if this
study rings out in real life....
I also recall an oil company running some Landrovers around the world
(over 200,000 miles their route I believe) without an oil change and
without problems.

Note the study only ran until 15,000 miles on the test cars so the oil
may still be good after that....?

It certainly is interesting the 'sweet spot' for oil is after 3000
miles so I certainly won't be changing my oil early but how long I
leave it..?

Your comments?

This information came from a SAE paper conducted by Ford motor Co and
Conoco Phillips SAE number 2007-01-4133

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vfr@xxxxxx
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Too bad they did not use oil that was used in a real world environment.
Taxis are never shut off, and the test that they did after that were done in
continuous run tests. Take some oil from cars that run in the 4 seasons and
run for less than an hour at a time and let me know the results. Having
been a mechanic for more than 30 years, I personally have seen many engines
completely sludged up from not having the oil changed. Did not check the
wear on them though, since many were seized up.

doug

-----Original Message-----
From: vfr-bounces@xxxxxx [mailto:vfr-bounces@xxxxxx] On Behalf Of
JA
Sent: December 7, 2007 5:11 AM
To: LABiker
Cc: vfr Edu
Subject: This is what happens when you don't change your oil

From another forum. Interesting but I am not a petroleum engineer. Ken?

JohnA

---

This is what happens if you don't change your oil...

Thought some people may be interested to know I was reading a study
where engine oil of different ages (mileage) was run on a test bed rig
comprising a single cam and bucket follower and the friction and wear
measured. The engine oil was aged by running it in gasoline taxis in
Las Vegas and tested at regular intervals.

http://www.sae.org/events/pfs/brochureb.pdf.

The study concluded that "as in the previous study the results showed
that the aged engine oils provide lower friction and much improved wear
protection capability. these improvements were observed as early as the
3000 mile drain interval and continued to the 15,000 mile drain
interval"

The results for the wear rate are astonishing, basically a new oil for
example RO 243 would produce 0.14 mg of wear (material worn away from
the shim and bucket in a 50 hour test), oil at the 3 and 5000 mile
drain interval produced 0.02mg (less wear) and oil at the 15,000 mile
interval produced no wear that was measurable by the apparatus.

The other oils tested showed a similar result.

Chemical analysis showed the development of a chemical produced as the
oil is used which is formulated as ZDDP (a common oil additive found in
nearly evey oil i believe) decomposes. The new chemical is believed to
be responsible for the low wear rates and low friction. Also note the
viscosity incerased upto 40% by the end of teh 15,0000 mile test
however friction decreased. my guess here is friction is reduced as no
contact takes place between the components and hence the zero wear
results as well. (the increase in viscosity will also help prevent
contact).

My own experience of old cars and bikes - e.g my old diesel peugeot
diesel with 180,000 miles on the clock (hardly if at all saw an oil
change in the last 40-60,000 miles) and my friends running honda XR4's
with never an oil change and never any problems makes me wonder if this
study rings out in real life....
I also recall an oil company running some Landrovers around the world
(over 200,000 miles their route I believe) without an oil change and
without problems.

Note the study only ran until 15,000 miles on the test cars so the oil
may still be good after that....?

It certainly is interesting the 'sweet spot' for oil is after 3000
miles so I certainly won't be changing my oil early but how long I
leave it..?

Your comments?

This information came from a SAE paper conducted by Ford motor Co and
Conoco Phillips SAE number 2007-01-4133

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Yeah Fred, that's all I have so far too.

JohnA in LA



On Dec 7, 2007, at 9:14 AM, Fred Wills wrote:

> John,
>
> Do you access to that paper? The link you provide does not show
> anything, it's just a brochure for the SAE conference (past).
>
> -Fred
>
> JA wrote:
>
>> From another forum. Interesting but I am not a petroleum engineer.
>> Ken?
>>
>> JohnA
>>
>> ---
>>
>> This is what happens if you don't change your oil...
>>
>> Thought some people may be interested to know I was reading a study
>> where engine oil of different ages (mileage) was run on a test bed
>> rig comprising a single cam and bucket follower and the friction and
>> wear measured. The engine oil was aged by running it in gasoline
>> taxis in Las Vegas and tested at regular intervals.
>>
>> http://www.sae.org/events/pfs/brochureb.pdf.
>>
>> The study concluded that "as in the previous study the results showed
>> that the aged engine oils provide lower friction and much improved
>> wear protection capability. these improvements were observed as early
>> as the 3000 mile drain interval and continued to the 15,000 mile
>> drain interval"
>>
>> The results for the wear rate are astonishing, basically a new oil
>> for example RO 243 would produce 0.14 mg of wear (material worn away
>> from the shim and bucket in a 50 hour test), oil at the 3 and 5000
>> mile drain interval produced 0.02mg (less wear) and oil at the 15,000
>> mile interval produced no wear that was measurable by the apparatus.
>>
>> The other oils tested showed a similar result.
>>
>> Chemical analysis showed the development of a chemical produced as
>> the oil is used which is formulated as ZDDP (a common oil additive
>> found in nearly evey oil i believe) decomposes. The new chemical is
>> believed to be responsible for the low wear rates and low friction.
>> Also note the viscosity incerased upto 40% by the end of teh 15,0000
>> mile test however friction decreased. my guess here is friction is
>> reduced as no contact takes place between the components and hence
>> the zero wear results as well. (the increase in viscosity will also
>> help prevent contact).
>>
>> My own experience of old cars and bikes - e.g my old diesel peugeot
>> diesel with 180,000 miles on the clock (hardly if at all saw an oil
>> change in the last 40-60,000 miles) and my friends running honda
>> XR4's with never an oil change and never any problems makes me wonder
>> if this study rings out in real life....
>> I also recall an oil company running some Landrovers around the world
>> (over 200,000 miles their route I believe) without an oil change and
>> without problems.
>>
>> Note the study only ran until 15,000 miles on the test cars so the
>> oil may still be good after that....?
>>
>> It certainly is interesting the 'sweet spot' for oil is after 3000
>> miles so I certainly won't be changing my oil early but how long I
>> leave it..?
>>
>> Your comments?
>>
>> This information came from a SAE paper conducted by Ford motor Co and
>> Conoco Phillips SAE number 2007-01-4133
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> vfr mailing list
>> vfr@xxxxxx
>> For subscription and delivery options:
>> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> -Fred W
>
> '98 Honda VFR800Fi SPORTtourer
> '05 Yammi FJR1300 sportTOURER
> '00 Aprilia Pegaso AdventureTourer
>

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> From another forum. Interesting but I am not a petroleum engineer.
> Ken?
>
> JohnA
[oils appear to maintain or increase lubrication ability as they age]

This is interesting, but it doesn't get at all the reasons that we,
as motorcyclists change our oil. Specifically, I'm transitioning to
less of a mileage-based change and more of a shift-feel change. When
my shifting stops being all silky-smooth, and I start getting false-
neutrals, and failure to shift down as I come to a stop, I change my
oil and all those problems go away. I suspect that all this behavior
has to do with the viscosity of the oil rather than its lubrication
ability, but I really don't know.

later,
johnj

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The paper is available here for $14:

https://shop.sae.org/technical/papers/2007-01-4133

-Patrick


On 07/12/2007, JA wrote:
>
> Yeah Fred, that's all I have so far too.
>
> JohnA in LA
>
>
>
> On Dec 7, 2007, at 9:14 AM, Fred Wills wrote:
>
> > John,
> >
> > Do you access to that paper? The link you provide does not show
> > anything, it's just a brochure for the SAE conference (past).
> >
> > -Fred
> >
> > JA wrote:
> >
> >> From another forum. Interesting but I am not a petroleum engineer.
> >> Ken?
> >>
> >> JohnA
> >>
> >> ---
> >>
> >> This is what happens if you don't change your oil...
> >>
> >> Thought some people may be interested to know I was reading a study
> >> where engine oil of different ages (mileage) was run on a test bed
> >> rig comprising a single cam and bucket follower and the friction and
> >> wear measured. The engine oil was aged by running it in gasoline
> >> taxis in Las Vegas and tested at regular intervals.
> >>
> >> http://www.sae.org/events/pfs/brochureb.pdf.
> >>
> >> The study concluded that "as in the previous study the results showed
> >> that the aged engine oils provide lower friction and much improved
> >> wear protection capability. these improvements were observed as early
> >> as the 3000 mile drain interval and continued to the 15,000 mile
> >> drain interval"
> >>
> >> The results for the wear rate are astonishing, basically a new oil
> >> for example RO 243 would produce 0.14 mg of wear (material worn away
> >> from the shim and bucket in a 50 hour test), oil at the 3 and 5000
> >> mile drain interval produced 0.02mg (less wear) and oil at the 15,000
> >> mile interval produced no wear that was measurable by the apparatus.
> >>
> >> The other oils tested showed a similar result.
> >>
> >> Chemical analysis showed the development of a chemical produced as
> >> the oil is used which is formulated as ZDDP (a common oil additive
> >> found in nearly evey oil i believe) decomposes. The new chemical is
> >> believed to be responsible for the low wear rates and low friction.
> >> Also note the viscosity incerased upto 40% by the end of teh 15,0000
> >> mile test however friction decreased. my guess here is friction is
> >> reduced as no contact takes place between the components and hence
> >> the zero wear results as well. (the increase in viscosity will also
> >> help prevent contact).
> >>
> >> My own experience of old cars and bikes - e.g my old diesel peugeot
> >> diesel with 180,000 miles on the clock (hardly if at all saw an oil
> >> change in the last 40-60,000 miles) and my friends running honda
> >> XR4's with never an oil change and never any problems makes me wonder
> >> if this study rings out in real life....
> >> I also recall an oil company running some Landrovers around the world
> >> (over 200,000 miles their route I believe) without an oil change and
> >> without problems.
> >>
> >> Note the study only ran until 15,000 miles on the test cars so the
> >> oil may still be good after that....?
> >>
> >> It certainly is interesting the 'sweet spot' for oil is after 3000
> >> miles so I certainly won't be changing my oil early but how long I
> >> leave it..?
> >>
> >> Your comments?
> >>
> >> This information came from a SAE paper conducted by Ford motor Co and
> >> Conoco Phillips SAE number 2007-01-4133
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> vfr mailing list
> >> vfr@xxxxxx
> >> For subscription and delivery options:
> >> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > -Fred W
> >
> > '98 Honda VFR800Fi SPORTtourer
> > '05 Yammi FJR1300 sportTOURER
> > '00 Aprilia Pegaso AdventureTourer
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> vfr mailing list
> vfr@xxxxxx
> For subscription and delivery options:
> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>

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John Johnson wrote:

>>From another forum. Interesting but I am not a petroleum engineer.
>>Ken?
>>
>>JohnA
>>
>>
>[oils appear to maintain or increase lubrication ability as they age]
>
>This is interesting, but it doesn't get at all the reasons that we,
>as motorcyclists change our oil. Specifically, I'm transitioning to
>less of a mileage-based change and more of a shift-feel change. When
>my shifting stops being all silky-smooth, and I start getting false-
>neutrals, and failure to shift down as I come to a stop, I change my
>oil and all those problems go away. I suspect that all this behavior
>has to do with the viscosity of the oil rather than its lubrication
>ability, but I really don't know.
>
>
>
>
Yeah, I'm not yet convinced that the quoted synopsis of the study is
what it actually said. I was involved in a discussion on the forum
about this and nobody seems to have an actual copy of the SAE report. I
did see another account of the same report with different conclusions by
a Porsche mechanic, so there appears to be some confusion about the
findings.

Anyone have a copy of this report? Again,. it's SAE number 2007-01-4133

--

-Fred W

'98 Honda VFR800Fi SPORTtourer
'05 Yammi FJR1300 sportTOURER
'00 Aprilia Pegaso AdventureTourer

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Patrick Shelston wrote:

> The paper is available here for $14:
>
> https://shop.sae.org/technical/papers/2007-01-4133
>
> -Patrick
>
>
Thanks Patrick. I don't think it's worth $14, but the abstract at that
link you provided sure does support the theory that new oil is not as
good as used oil as far as lubrication is concerned. Truly
counterintuitive...


--

-Fred W

'98 Honda VFR800Fi SPORTtourer
'05 Yammi FJR1300 sportTOURER
'00 Aprilia Pegaso AdventureTourer

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For the lazy amongst us all (I am in that list) here is the abstract.

JohnA
---

Abstract:
Engine oils are subjected to a series of industry standard engine
dynamometer tests to measure their wear protection capability, sludge
and varnish formation tendencies, and fuel efficiency among several
other performance attributes before they are approved for use in
customer engines. However, these performance attributes are measured
at the end of tests and therefore, do not provide any information on
how the properties have changed during the tests. In one of our
previous studies it was observed that engine oil samples collected
from fleet vehicles after 12,000 mile drain interval showed 10-15%
lower friction and more importantly, an order of magnitude lower wear
rate than those of fresh oils. It was also observed that the
composition of the tribochemical films formed was quite different on
the surface tested with the drain oils from those formed with fresh
oils. The objective of this investigation is to demonstrate how the
friction and wear performance changed with oil drain intervals. A
fleet of three vehicles was run in Las Vegas and oil samples were
collected at various drain intervals from 3,000 miles to 15,000 miles.
As in the previous study, the results showed that the aged engine oils
provide lower friction and much improved wear protection capability.
These improvements were observed as early as the 3,000 mile drain
interval and continued to the 15,000 mile drain interval. The
composition of tribochemical films formed on the surface with the
3,000 mile drain interval is similar to that formed with the 12,000
mile drain interval as seen before. These findings could be an enabler
for achieving longer drain interval although several other factors
must to be considered.
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> From: "BRIAN GOAD"
> Date: December 7, 2007 12:01:36 PM PST
> Subject: Re: This is what happens when you don't change your oil
>
> You got to be kidding right? SOmeone needs some reality check, oil
> sludge and lack of oil passages will effect your engine in a not so
> good way. I suggest that education never takes place of reading
> things on the internet and newspaper.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "JA"
> To: "LABiker"
> Cc: "vfr Edu"
> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 2:10 AM
> Subject: This is what happens when you don't change your oil
>
>
>> From another forum. Interesting but I am not a petroleum engineer.
>> Ken?
>>
>> JohnA
>>
>> ---
>>
>> This is what happens if you don't change your oil...
>>
>> Thought some people may be interested to know I was reading a study
>> where engine oil of different ages (mileage) was run on a test bed rig
>> comprising a single cam and bucket follower and the friction and wear
>> measured. The engine oil was aged by running it in gasoline taxis in
>> Las Vegas and tested at regular intervals.
>>
>> http://www.sae.org/events/pfs/brochureb.pdf.
>>
>> The study concluded that "as in the previous study the results showed
>> that the aged engine oils provide lower friction and much improved
>> wear
>> protection capability. these improvements were observed as early as
>> the
>> 3000 mile drain interval and continued to the 15,000 mile drain
>> interval"
>>
>> The results for the wear rate are astonishing, basically a new oil for
>> example RO 243 would produce 0.14 mg of wear (material worn away from
>> the shim and bucket in a 50 hour test), oil at the 3 and 5000 mile
>> drain interval produced 0.02mg (less wear) and oil at the 15,000 mile
>> interval produced no wear that was measurable by the apparatus.
>>
>> The other oils tested showed a similar result.
>>
>> Chemical analysis showed the development of a chemical produced as the
>> oil is used which is formulated as ZDDP (a common oil additive found
>> in
>> nearly evey oil i believe) decomposes. The new chemical is believed to
>> be responsible for the low wear rates and low friction. Also note the
>> viscosity incerased upto 40% by the end of teh 15,0000 mile test
>> however friction decreased. my guess here is friction is reduced as no
>> contact takes place between the components and hence the zero wear
>> results as well. (the increase in viscosity will also help prevent
>> contact).
>>
>> My own experience of old cars and bikes - e.g my old diesel peugeot
>> diesel with 180,000 miles on the clock (hardly if at all saw an oil
>> change in the last 40-60,000 miles) and my friends running honda XR4's
>> with never an oil change and never any problems makes me wonder if
>> this
>> study rings out in real life....
>> I also recall an oil company running some Landrovers around the world
>> (over 200,000 miles their route I believe) without an oil change and
>> without problems.
>>
>> Note the study only ran until 15,000 miles on the test cars so the oil
>> may still be good after that....?
>>
>> It certainly is interesting the 'sweet spot' for oil is after 3000
>> miles so I certainly won't be changing my oil early but how long I
>> leave it..?
>>
>> Your comments?
>>
>> This information came from a SAE paper conducted by Ford motor Co and
>> Conoco Phillips SAE number 2007-01-4133
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> vfr mailing list
>> vfr@xxxxxx
>> For subscription and delivery options:
>> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>

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> From: "Ron Willoughby"
> Date: December 7, 2007 11:16:54 AM PST
> Subject: RE: This is what happens when you don't change your oil
>
> This may relate to some other studies that I remember that talked about
> the best oil was reprocessed oil that had been recycled. This came I
> think from trucking companies that had a real economic interest in the
> cost of oil changes and wear properties. This may be saying something
> similar that oil has a break-in period where it gets better. This may
> point to better oil filters being more important than changing the oil.
> Get the contaminates out and maybe replace some additives periodically.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vfr-bounces@xxxxxx [mailto:vfr-bounces@xxxxxx] On
> Behalf
> Of John Alexander
> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 12:00 PM
> To: LABiker
> Cc: vfr Edu
> Subject: Re: This is what happens when you don't change your oil
>
> For the lazy amongst us all (I am in that list) here is the abstract.
>
> JohnA
> ---
>
> Abstract:
> Engine oils are subjected to a series of industry standard engine
> dynamometer tests to measure their wear protection capability, sludge
> and varnish formation tendencies, and fuel efficiency among several
> other performance attributes before they are approved for use in
> customer engines. However, these performance attributes are measured
> at the end of tests and therefore, do not provide any information on
> how the properties have changed during the tests. In one of our
> previous studies it was observed that engine oil samples collected
> from fleet vehicles after 12,000 mile drain interval showed 10-15%
> lower friction and more importantly, an order of magnitude lower wear
> rate than those of fresh oils. It was also observed that the
> composition of the tribochemical films formed was quite different on
> the surface tested with the drain oils from those formed with fresh
> oils. The objective of this investigation is to demonstrate how the
> friction and wear performance changed with oil drain intervals. A
> fleet of three vehicles was run in Las Vegas and oil samples were
> collected at various drain intervals from 3,000 miles to 15,000 miles.
> As in the previous study, the results showed that the aged engine oils
> provide lower friction and much improved wear protection capability.
> These improvements were observed as early as the 3,000 mile drain
> interval and continued to the 15,000 mile drain interval. The
> composition of tribochemical films formed on the surface with the
> 3,000 mile drain interval is similar to that formed with the 12,000
> mile drain interval as seen before. These findings could be an enabler
> for achieving longer drain interval although several other factors
> must to be considered.
> _______________________________________________
> vfr mailing list
> vfr@xxxxxx
> For subscription and delivery options:
> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>

_______________________________________________
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> From: "Ron Willoughby"
> Date: December 7, 2007 12:38:18 PM PST
> Subject: RE: This is what happens when you don't change your oil
>
>
> Yes, but the studies I was referring to were re-processed oil that was
> filtered and re-used not just left in the engine. Better filters would
> support this by removing contaminants.
> *
>
> From: vfr-bounces@xxxxxx [mailto:vfr-bounces@xxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of JA
> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 1:22 PM
> To: vfr Edu
> Subject: Re: This is what happens when you don't change your oil
> *
>> From: "BRIAN GOAD"
>> Date: December 7, 2007 12:01:36 PM PST
>> Subject: Re: This is what happens when you don't change your oil
>> *
>> You got to be kidding right? SOmeone needs some reality check, oil
>> sludge and lack of oil passages will effect your engine in a not so
>> good way. I suggest that education never takes place of reading
>> things on the internet and newspaper.
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "JA"
>> To: "LABiker"
>> Cc: "vfr Edu"
>> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 2:10 AM
>> Subject: This is what happens when you don't change your oil
>>> *
>>> From another forum. Interesting but I am not a petroleum engineer.
>>> Ken?
>>> *
>>> JohnA
>>> *
>>> ---
>>> *
>>> This is what happens if you don't change your oil...
>>> *
>>> Thought some people may be interested to know I was reading a study
>>> where engine oil of different ages (mileage) was run on a test bed
>>> rig
>>> comprising a single cam and bucket follower and the friction and wear
>>> measured. The engine oil was aged by running it in gasoline taxis in
>>> Las Vegas and tested at regular intervals.
>>> *
>>> http://www.sae.org/events/pfs/brochureb.pdf.
>>> *
>>> The study concluded that "as in the previous study the results showed
>>> that the aged engine oils provide lower friction and much improved
>>> wear
>>> protection capability. these improvements were observed as early as
>>> the
>>> 3000 mile drain interval and continued to the 15,000 mile drain
>>> interval"
>>> *
>>> The results for the wear rate are astonishing, basically a new oil
>>> for
>>> example RO 243 would produce 0.14 mg of wear (material worn away from
>>> the shim and bucket in a 50 hour test), oil at the 3 and 5000 mile
>>> drain interval produced 0.02mg (less wear) and oil at the 15,000 mile
>>> interval produced no wear that was measurable by the apparatus.
>>> *
>>> The other oils tested showed a similar result.
>>> *
>>> Chemical analysis showed the development of a chemical produced as
>>> the
>>> oil is used which is formulated as ZDDP (a common oil additive found
>>> in
>>> nearly evey oil i believe) decomposes. The new chemical is believed
>>> to
>>> be responsible for the low wear rates and low friction. Also note the
>>> viscosity incerased upto 40% by the end of teh 15,0000 mile test
>>> however friction decreased. my guess here is friction is reduced as
>>> no
>>> contact takes place between the components and hence the zero wear
>>> results as well. (the increase in viscosity will also help prevent
>>> contact).
>>> *
>>> My own experience of old cars and bikes - e.g my old diesel peugeot
>>> diesel with 180,000 miles on the clock (hardly if at all saw an oil
>>> change in the last 40-60,000 miles) and my friends running honda
>>> XR4's
>>> with never an oil change and never any problems makes me wonder if
>>> this
>>> study rings out in real life....
>>> I also recall an oil company running some Landrovers around the world
>>> (over 200,000 miles their route I believe) without an oil change and
>>> without problems.
>>> *
>>> Note the study only ran until 15,000 miles on the test cars so the
>>> oil
>>> may still be good after that....?
>>> *
>>> It certainly is interesting the 'sweet spot' for oil is after 3000
>>> miles so I certainly won't be changing my oil early but how long I
>>> leave it..?
>>> *
>>> Your comments?
>>> *
>>> This information came from a SAE paper conducted by Ford motor Co and
>>> Conoco Phillips SAE number 2007-01-4133
>>> *
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> vfr mailing list
>>> vfr@xxxxxx
>>> For subscription and delivery options:
>>> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>> *

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my engine burns the oil and then i add fresh. is that the same as replacing the oil? ;>)george in cincinnasty oHIo83 vf750f81 frankenseca (550 seca w/gs1100 front end)


To: vfr@xxxxxxrom: johnmalexander@xxxxxxubject: Re: This is what happens when you don't change your oilDate: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 12:22:19 -0800



From: "Ron Willoughby" Date: December 7, 2007 11:16:54 AM PSTSubject: RE: This is what happens when you don't change your oilThis may relate to some other studies that I remember that talked aboutthe best oil was reprocessed oil that had been recycled. This came Ithink from trucking companies that had a real economic interest in thecost of oil changes and wear properties. This may be saying somethingsimilar that oil has a break-in period where it gets better. This maypoint to better oil filters being more important than changing the oil.Get the contaminates out and maybe replace some additives periodically.-----Original Message-----From: vfr-bounces@xxxxxx [mailto:vfr-bounces@xxxxxx] On BehalfOf John AlexanderSent: Friday, December 07, 2007 12:00 PMTo: LABikerCc: vfr EduSubject: Re: This is what happens when you don't change your oilFor the lazy amongst us all (I am in that list) here is the abstract.JohnA---Abstract:Engine oils are subjected to a series of industry standard enginedynamometer tests to measure their wear protection capability, sludgeand varnish formation tendencies, and fuel efficiency among severalother performance attributes before they are approved for use incustomer engines. However, these performance attributes are measuredat the end of tests and therefore, do not provide any information onhow the properties have changed during the tests. In one of ourprevious studies it was observed that engine oil samples collectedfrom fleet vehicles after 12,000 mile drain interval showed 10-15%lower friction and more importantly, an order of magnitude lower wearrate than those of fresh oils. It was also observed that thecomposition of the tribochemical films formed was quite different onthe surface tested with the drain oils from those formed with freshoils. The objective of this investigation is to demonstrate how thefriction and wear performance changed with oil drain intervals. Afleet of three vehicles was run in Las Vegas and oil samples werecollected at various drain intervals from 3,000 miles to 15,000 miles.As in the previous study, the results showed that the aged engine oilsprovide lower friction and much improved wear protection capability.These improvements were observed as early as the 3,000 mile draininterval and continued to the 15,000 mile drain interval. Thecomposition of tribochemical films formed on the surface with the3,000 mile drain interval is similar to that formed with the 12,000mile drain interval as seen before. These findings could be an enablerfor achieving longer drain interval although several other factorsmust to be considered._______________________________________________vfr mailing listvfr@xxxxxxor subscription and delivery options:https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
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Inline full-flow oil "filters" really are a misnomer. They don't have a
chance of filtering out "contaminants" and will only catch the large
chunks of metal or glop that might get into the engine. They really
should be called STRAINERS and not filters. They can't get out the
contaminants that the detergent in the oil is holding in suspension. If
they did, they would plug up very quickly and lower oil pressure
dramatically, and reduce flow to a trickle or even stop oil flow all
together after a short time. A typical auto/motorcycle full-flow oil
filter only can filter down to about 30 microns and the majority of wear
in the engine caused by contaminants are caused by particles of 20
microns or smaller. Of course, 30+ micron contaminants would do a LOT
more engine damage if the filter were NOT there but there is a lot of
oil contamination created by the engine itself as well as blow-by gasses
mixing and reacting with the oil that a full-flow oil filter is never
going to touch.

About the only way to get the oil "clean" is with a by-pass oil filter
like the Frantz or Amsoil, which can continuously filter out the smaller
particles but not effect oil pressure or volume to the engine as the
"strainer" filter does the main job of keeping the big crud out of the
engine right after the oil pump as the lubrication oil is on its way to
the working parts inside the engine. The by-pass filter just works away
slowly in a separate parallel "bypass" loop returning the oil back to
the sump without going through the engine. It takes about 5-10 minutes
to work its way through all the oil in the oil pan -but does a much
better job of it. The old Toilet-paper filters can get out particulates
down to sub-micron levels if given enough time to work over the oil over
and over again as the engine runs. Plus the filter media is cheap. You
can buy TP for less than a dollar a roll at WallyWorld. I've never seen
anyone put a Frantz filter on a VFR though...

I wonder if it would help extend the miles on the oil before the
shifting gets too clunky? That's when I know it is time to put in new
oil. Usually it's not much past 3K the way I ride.

Jim

JA wrote:
>
> *From: *"Ron Willoughby"
> *Date: *December 7, 2007 11:16:54 AM PST
> *Subject: RE: This is what happens when you don't change your oil
> *
> This may relate to some other studies that I remember that talked
> about
> the best oil was reprocessed oil that had been recycled. This came I
> think from trucking companies that had a real economic interest in
> the
> cost of oil changes and wear properties. This may be saying something
> similar that oil has a break-in period where it gets better. This may
> point to better oil filters being more important than changing the
> oil.
> Get the contaminates out and maybe replace some additives
> periodically.
>
>
>
>

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Where in the heck is OilGuy now that we really need him?

Vic


---------------------------------
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Oh my. Winter has clearly arrived. We've got the obligatory oil thread
started and we've already had Amsoil mentioned.

It's going to be a loooong winter...


--

-Fred W

'98 Honda VFR800Fi SPORTtourer
'05 Yammi FJR1300 sportTOURER
'00 Aprilia Pegaso AdventureTourer

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On Friday 07 December 2007 2:11:23 pm vic5491@xxxxxx wrote:
> Where in the heck is OilGuy now that we really need him?
>
That seems to be a really good question for today.


--
Jerry


Most people are terrified at the thought of having to exercise personal
responsibility. They prefer the delusion that the police can protect them
and the govenment will take care of them.
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