WOTL sought - Tire Weights and mounting/balancing techniques

Data Collection Mode:

What's the most weight you've seen used to balance a
m/c tire?
Any documented upper limit on the amount of weight
from a safety standpoint?

Theoretically, in some situations the amount of weight
can be minimized further after mounting a tire by
shifting the balance dot of the tire in relation to
the wheel (before inflation).
My question in regards to this is how?
Once on, even without seating the bead, I've never
been able to budge a radial tire in relation to the
wheel, even when well soaped. (Regarding the recent
link to a Brit's method of tire changing, I don't
think I want to go the WD40 route on this).

TIA,
Greg




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Greg, before you mount a new tire, but the bare wheel on the balance stand
and let the heavy spot settle at the bottom. Mark inside the wheel with a
marker pen. Then put the tire dot at that point when you mount the new
tire. Reduces or sometimes eliminates the need for weights. My current
rear tire is perfectly balanced with no weights at all after using this
method. You would naturally think the valve stem is the heaviest spot on a
wheel but that's only true on a tiny percentage of wheels.

If yo need to move the tire on the wheel before seating the beads, just
squeeze the tire together so the beads are away from the wheel lips. Might
need a helper, but you can move the tire around the wheel if needed.

As to amount of weight, my experience after doing almost 2,000 tires is that
Avons usually require the most weight to make balanced. Michelins seem to
be the best as to consistently-uniform-around-the-circumference for balance
sake. I've had to put about 80 grams of weight to make tires balance
before. And like I said above I can sometimes make perfect with zero added
weight.

The wheels are the big factor there, so don't put too much thought into tire
selection. Most consistent wheels I ever saw (valve stem is heavy spot)
were on Honda RC51's. I don't know I they machined them specially or
something but those bikes had the most consistency of wheels. Other brands
like Yamaha and Suzuki are all ove the board. And stock Kawasaki wheels
come with knife-edged wheel weights put on the outer rim that are guaranteed
to scratch your wheel when you remove them. All meaningless data, I know,
but maybe it adds some perspective.

Like I said, I've done many tire mount and balances so feel free to ask
questions.

Later,
M

-----Original Message-----
Data Collection Mode:

What's the most weight you've seen used to balance a m/c tire?
Any documented upper limit on the amount of weight from a safety standpoint?

Theoretically, in some situations the amount of weight can be minimized
further after mounting a tire by shifting the balance dot of the tire in
relation to the wheel (before inflation).
My question in regards to this is how?
Once on, even without seating the bead, I've never been able to budge a
radial tire in relation to the wheel, even when well soaped. (Regarding the
recent link to a Brit's method of tire changing, I don't think I want to go
the WD40 route on this).

TIA,
Greg




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I've mounted a few and balanced a few in my short time motorcycling! LOL I
have never had to put more than 2 oz. on a wheel/tire and that was an
extreme situation, Tomahawks I believe. As far as rotating the tire on the
rim before airing up..... That is an every tire situation. I either use
Ru-Glyde or as of late I have been using an aerosol "Yamaha tire mounting
lube". I like it because of less mess.

Denny

-----Original Message-----
From: vfr-bounces@xxxxxx [mailto:vfr-bounces@xxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Greg Verderber
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 3:25 PM
To: vfrlist
Subject: WOTL sought - Tire Weights and mounting/balancing techniques

Data Collection Mode:

What's the most weight you've seen used to balance a
m/c tire?
Any documented upper limit on the amount of weight
from a safety standpoint?

Theoretically, in some situations the amount of weight
can be minimized further after mounting a tire by
shifting the balance dot of the tire in relation to
the wheel (before inflation).
My question in regards to this is how?
Once on, even without seating the bead, I've never
been able to budge a radial tire in relation to the
wheel, even when well soaped. (Regarding the recent
link to a Brit's method of tire changing, I don't
think I want to go the WD40 route on this).

TIA,
Greg




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Mike Solace wrote:
> If yo need to move the tire on the wheel before
> seating the beads, just squeeze the tire together
> so the beads are away from the wheel lips.
> Might need a helper, but you can move the tire
> around the wheel if needed.
After much lubing and swearing and pondering
jury-rigged rube goldberg contraptions for clamping
tires and/or wheels, I'm convinced that it would take
three very friendly, olympic weight lifters and a
midget to move a tire after mounting it. Working on my
own I couldn't come up with any way of getting both
beads sufficiently away from the rims to allow it to
be shifted. Being a smaller width 160/60 is probably
an additional hindrance. I shall have to go to Master
Denny's hermitage and learn his secrets.

> I've had to put about 80 grams of weight to make
> tires balance before.
Thanks for the data, I was looking at needing about 60
grams (2.25 oz) which is far more than my previous
high - more on this below.

>The wheels are the big factor there, so don't put too
>much thought into tire selection. Most consistent
>wheels I ever saw (valve stem is heavy spot) were on
>Honda RC51's. I don't know I they machined them
>specially or something but those bikes had the most
>consistency of wheels. Other brands like Yamaha and
>Suzuki are all ove the board. And stock Kawasaki
>wheels come with knife-edged wheel weights put on the

>outer rim that are guaranteed to scratch your wheel
>when you remove them. All meaningless data, I know,
>but maybe it adds some perspective.
More perspective back to you, both wheels on my SV and
the VFR front have their heavy spot opposite the stem.
The VFR rear's heavy spot is the odd one, not at
either the stem or opposite.

None of my wheels need more than 1.25 oz to balance
w/o a tire, so what I was dealing with this week
mounting a BT021 on the SV has me scratching my head.
I mounted the tire with the balance dot at the heavy
spot of the wheel. On the stand, the heavy spot of the
assembly was still the same as the naked wheel
(opposite the stem). This isn't unusual, and to be
expected if the tire is pretty close to being balanced
on it's own. Things got weird when I had to tape 2.25
oz of weight to the center of the tire to balance it.
WTF! I wondered if the dot had been applied opposite
where it should've been, because my recollection was
that the naked wheel only needed .75 oz of weight to
balance.

I removed the tire (after the aforementioned swearing
and such), rechecked the wheel (my memory was faulty,
it needed 1.25 oz to balance), and remounted the tire
with the dot at the wheel's light spot (stem). The
heavy spot of the tire wheel combo had shifted by only
a couple of inches, it was still almost directly
opposite the stem and I needed 1.75 oz of weight to
balance it this time. WTF again!?!
I don't know how to interpret this scenario. Nor can I
postulate any likely error in my process other than
that the weight amount I determined in the initial
attempt may have been insufficient. Initially I was
taping temporary weights to the outside of the tire
rather than to the inside of the rim. I didn't think
the additional distance from the rim would have that
much effect, but on the second go around, the shift in
location required an additional .5 oz to achieve
balance). So by reversing the location of the balance
dot I may have reduced the amount of weight needed by
1 oz, but needing the weight in the same place for
both dot locations has me baffled.

I haven't done near the number of tire replacements
that Mike and Denny have, but I've done enough to be
confident in my methods and all previous results have
been satisfactory (excepting the time I forgot to keep
track of the rotation arrow DOH!) and I never needed
more than 1.5 oz of weight max. The previous tire on
this rim balanced with only .25 oz.






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Greg Verderber wrote:

>None of my wheels need more than 1.25 oz to balance
>w/o a tire, so what I was dealing with this week
>mounting a BT021 on the SV has me scratching my head.
>I mounted the tire with the balance dot at the heavy
>spot of the wheel. On the stand, the heavy spot of the
>assembly was still the same as the naked wheel
>(opposite the stem). This isn't unusual, and to be
>expected if the tire is pretty close to being balanced
>on it's own. Things got weird when I had to tape 2.25
>oz of weight to the center of the tire to balance it.
>WTF! I wondered if the dot had been applied opposite
>where it should've been, because my recollection was
>that the naked wheel only needed .75 oz of weight to
>balance.
>
>I removed the tire (after the aforementioned swearing
>and such), rechecked the wheel (my memory was faulty,
>it needed 1.25 oz to balance), and remounted the tire
>with the dot at the wheel's light spot (stem). The
>heavy spot of the tire wheel combo had shifted by only
>a couple of inches, it was still almost directly
>opposite the stem and I needed 1.75 oz of weight to
>balance it this time. WTF again!?!
>I don't know how to interpret this scenario. Nor can I
>postulate any likely error in my process other than
>that the weight amount I determined in the initial
>attempt may have been insufficient. Initially I was
>taping temporary weights to the outside of the tire
>rather than to the inside of the rim. I didn't think
>the additional distance from the rim would have that
>much effect, but on the second go around, the shift in
>location required an additional .5 oz to achieve
>balance). So by reversing the location of the balance
>dot I may have reduced the amount of weight needed by
>1 oz, but needing the weight in the same place for
>both dot locations has me baffled.
>
>I haven't done near the number of tire replacements
>that Mike and Denny have, but I've done enough to be
>confident in my methods and all previous results have
>been satisfactory (excepting the time I forgot to keep
>track of the rotation arrow DOH!) and I never needed
>more than 1.5 oz of weight max. The previous tire on
>this rim balanced with only .25 oz.
>
>
>
>
>

Greg,

Here's a small modification to your procedure that should allow you to
use the minimum amount of weight and do it right the first time. If you
are unmounting and remounting tires to rotate them (because you can't
get them to spin on the rim) this could come in very handy.

When you balance your wheel initially without the tire, note the light
spot with the amount and location of weight that it takes on the outside
surface of the rim, where it will be inside the tire after mounting. On
black wheels you'll need to write on a piece of tape or use a white
grease marker.

Before mounting the new tire remove any old weights and stick on the
weight it takes to balance the bare wheel , in the normal weight
location on the rim (accessible with tire mounted) but temporarily,
using masking or duct tape.

Next mount the tire using your best guess as to what the balance dots on
the tire mean. If you look at the tire manufacturer's web site you may
be able to find a note as to how they mark their tires, lightest spot or
heaviest spot. Most mark the light spot so you would want that spot to
be 180 degrees opposite to where the weights are temporarily mounted.

Put the wheel on the balancer (temp weights still on) and verify that
the tire's lightest spot goes to the top and your temp weights go to the
bottom. If it doesn't, mark the spot on the tire that does go to the
top and move the tire on the rim so that your new mark is 180 degrees
opposite to where your temporary weights are mounted.

If it did, just remove the temporary weights and balance as usual. I
have been lucky a few times and the tire and wheel balanced themselves
after removing the temp weights with no added weights at all.

Hope that makes sense.

--

-Fred W

'98 Honda VFR800Fi
'05 Yammi FJR1300
'00 Aprilia Pegaso

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Hi Fred,
What you describe makes sense, but there's more than
one way to skin that cat.
I start with the old weights left in place,
occasionally the replacement is will have the same
balance as the prior one and I don't need to change
anything. If it's not balanced with the old weights,
they come off and I start from scratch (unless the
tire/wheel settles with the old weight at the top,
then I can just add more to the same spot).

If the dot isn't accurate, or the balance point is
somewhere between the respective light spots, your
marking method can be applied at that time (add the
known amount of temp weight to balance the wheel and
then mark the tire). I know the tire can be shifted to
minimize/eliminate the need for any weight, but
without a full blown tire changing rig or some other
setup that allows you to clamp the wheel firmly,
shifting the tire once it's on the rim ain't
happening. The only reason I unmounted and shifted
this last one was because the initial results were so
out of whack. The final results weren't much better,
but I got the weight under 2 oz and I wasn't going to
fight with it any more.

I couldn't find anything on Bridgestone's site about
the meaning of their balance dot, but previous tires
from them have all been marked at the light spot
(based on normal balancing results, this is the third
021 I've mounted in the last two months).

I've heard that some brands don't mark their tires
(Avon I believe), but I've never seen any conclusive
evidence that any company marks the heavy spot. I've
used and balanced Dunlops, Michelin's, Metzler's, and
Bridgestone's. They all mark the light spot (or at
least try to). I think that leaves just Continental,
Pirelli and Avon as the only major m/c tire providers
that I don't have any experience with.

FWIW - the AMA site is ludicrous. It states that m/c
tires are "pre-balanced" and that the dot should be
mounted at the stem. With no explanation of why.
Honda's Common Service Manual makes the same mistake
regarding mounting instructions, but at least it
explains that the dot is the light side of the tire
and assumes that the stem is the heavy spot of the
wheel. As has been pointed out in the past, that ain't
necessarily so.

Regards,
Greg

--- Fred Wills wrote:

>
> Here's a small modification to your procedure that
> should allow you to
> use the minimum amount of weight and do it right the
> first time. If you
> are unmounting and remounting tires to rotate them
> (because you can't
> get them to spin on the rim) this could come in very
> handy.
>
> When you balance your wheel initially without the
> tire, note the light
> spot with the amount and location of weight that it
> takes on the outside
> surface of the rim, where it will be inside the tire
> after mounting. On
> black wheels you'll need to write on a piece of tape
> or use a white
> grease marker.
>
> Before mounting the new tire remove any old weights
> and stick on the
> weight it takes to balance the bare wheel , in the
> normal weight
> location on the rim (accessible with tire mounted)
> but temporarily,
> using masking or duct tape.
>
> Next mount the tire using your best guess as to what
> the balance dots on
> the tire mean. If you look at the tire
> manufacturer's web site you may
> be able to find a note as to how they mark their
> tires, lightest spot or
> heaviest spot. Most mark the light spot so you
> would want that spot to
> be 180 degrees opposite to where the weights are
> temporarily mounted.
>
> Put the wheel on the balancer (temp weights still
> on) and verify that
> the tire's lightest spot goes to the top and your
> temp weights go to the
> bottom. If it doesn't, mark the spot on the tire
> that does go to the
> top and move the tire on the rim so that your new
> mark is 180 degrees
> opposite to where your temporary weights are
> mounted.
>
> If it did, just remove the temporary weights and
> balance as usual. I
> have been lucky a few times and the tire and wheel
> balanced themselves
> after removing the temp weights with no added
> weights at all.
>
> Hope that makes sense.
>
> --
>
> -Fred W
>
> '98 Honda VFR800Fi
> '05 Yammi FJR1300
> '00 Aprilia Pegaso
>
>





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Greg, If you still need help, give me a few days and my No-Mar tire changer
should be here and ready to go.

Denny

-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Verderber [mailto:vfr_greg@xxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 8:24 AM
To: vfrlist
Cc: Mike Solace; Andray Hubble; Denny Fair
Subject: RE: WOTL sought - Tire Weights and mounting/balancing techniques

Mike Solace wrote:
> If yo need to move the tire on the wheel before
> seating the beads, just squeeze the tire together
> so the beads are away from the wheel lips.
> Might need a helper, but you can move the tire
> around the wheel if needed.
After much lubing and swearing and pondering
jury-rigged rube goldberg contraptions for clamping
tires and/or wheels, I'm convinced that it would take
three very friendly, olympic weight lifters and a
midget to move a tire after mounting it. Working on my
own I couldn't come up with any way of getting both
beads sufficiently away from the rims to allow it to
be shifted. Being a smaller width 160/60 is probably
an additional hindrance. I shall have to go to Master
Denny's hermitage and learn his secrets.

> I've had to put about 80 grams of weight to make
> tires balance before.
Thanks for the data, I was looking at needing about 60
grams (2.25 oz) which is far more than my previous
high - more on this below.

>The wheels are the big factor there, so don't put too
>much thought into tire selection. Most consistent
>wheels I ever saw (valve stem is heavy spot) were on
>Honda RC51's. I don't know I they machined them
>specially or something but those bikes had the most
>consistency of wheels. Other brands like Yamaha and
>Suzuki are all ove the board. And stock Kawasaki
>wheels come with knife-edged wheel weights put on the

>outer rim that are guaranteed to scratch your wheel
>when you remove them. All meaningless data, I know,
>but maybe it adds some perspective.
More perspective back to you, both wheels on my SV and
the VFR front have their heavy spot opposite the stem.
The VFR rear's heavy spot is the odd one, not at
either the stem or opposite.

None of my wheels need more than 1.25 oz to balance
w/o a tire, so what I was dealing with this week
mounting a BT021 on the SV has me scratching my head.
I mounted the tire with the balance dot at the heavy
spot of the wheel. On the stand, the heavy spot of the
assembly was still the same as the naked wheel
(opposite the stem). This isn't unusual, and to be
expected if the tire is pretty close to being balanced
on it's own. Things got weird when I had to tape 2.25
oz of weight to the center of the tire to balance it.
WTF! I wondered if the dot had been applied opposite
where it should've been, because my recollection was
that the naked wheel only needed .75 oz of weight to
balance.

I removed the tire (after the aforementioned swearing
and such), rechecked the wheel (my memory was faulty,
it needed 1.25 oz to balance), and remounted the tire
with the dot at the wheel's light spot (stem). The
heavy spot of the tire wheel combo had shifted by only
a couple of inches, it was still almost directly
opposite the stem and I needed 1.75 oz of weight to
balance it this time. WTF again!?!
I don't know how to interpret this scenario. Nor can I
postulate any likely error in my process other than
that the weight amount I determined in the initial
attempt may have been insufficient. Initially I was
taping temporary weights to the outside of the tire
rather than to the inside of the rim. I didn't think
the additional distance from the rim would have that
much effect, but on the second go around, the shift in
location required an additional .5 oz to achieve
balance). So by reversing the location of the balance
dot I may have reduced the amount of weight needed by
1 oz, but needing the weight in the same place for
both dot locations has me baffled.

I haven't done near the number of tire replacements
that Mike and Denny have, but I've done enough to be
confident in my methods and all previous results have
been satisfactory (excepting the time I forgot to keep
track of the rotation arrow DOH!) and I never needed
more than 1.5 oz of weight max. The previous tire on
this rim balanced with only .25 oz.







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Anybody done their own on a '98 - '01 VFR800? What is the PITA factor?

Thanks,

Rob
http://motopumps.com

08 FJR 1300 A
07 DL650 VStrom
07 GSXR600
05 HD Road Glide
01 Bandit 600s
97 HD Sportster


--


Director, Technical Services
Student & Academic Services
Cornell University
B7 Day Hall
Ithaca, NY 14853
Voice: (607) 255-9083
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Rob:

Pretty low. Aside from having access to or buying the sticks to measure
with the hardest part is capping off the PAIR system. IMHO, it's easier
than mounting and balancing Greg's tires.

There has been multiple discussions of this over the years with one only
a few months ago, check the archives. You'll find more than one
complete description of the process.

-Mike


Rob Bandler wrote:
> Anybody done their own on a '98 - '01 VFR800? What is the PITA factor?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rob
> http://motopumps.com
>

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All,

Do keep in mind that one should also check the valves when doing
a throttle body synch. I recognize that the maintenance interval
for the two is different but it's just plain good sense.
Synching the bodies with valves that are out of spec will just
contribute to the poor running condition.

Kev


Kevin Glick--kglick@xxxxxx(The Isle O'Manhattan--NYC)
LRRS/CCS EXPERT# 56///US Marshals Risk And Track Safety
Management
Crew 94' EX500(Race)//98' VFR800Fi (Sequoia)// "Keep Thine Eye
On
The Tach And Thine Ear On The Engine Lest Thy Whirlybits
Seek Communion With The Sun" John 4:50





> -----Original Message-----
> From: vfr-bounces@xxxxxx [mailto:vfr-bounces@xxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Rudy Fierros
> Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 5:15 PM
> To: Rob Bandler; Michael Schwab
> Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Throttle Body Sync...
>
>
> Take a look at this link....
>
>
> http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/i...com=ineo&showa
> rticle=32
>
>
> Rudy Fierros
> '95 VFR750 - Twobros xmetal slipon, reworked suspension by
> Lindemann, Factory jet kit, Zero gravity DB, Sargent seat -
> just turned over 105K miles 03/15/2008.
>
> '71 Chevy stepside - Porsche guards red, lowered 4" rear, 3"
> front - cool cruiser.
>
>
> --- On Mon, 8/11/08, Michael Schwab
> wrote:
>
> > From: Michael Schwab
> > Subject: Re: Throttle Body Sync...
> > To: "Rob Bandler"
> > Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
> > Date: Monday, August 11, 2008, 1:53 PM
> > Rob:
> >
> > Pretty low. Aside from having access to or buying the
> > sticks to measure
> > with the hardest part is capping off the PAIR system. IMHO,
> > it's easier
> > than mounting and balancing Greg's tires.
> >
> > There has been multiple discussions of this over the years
> > with one only
> > a few months ago, check the archives. You'll find more
> > than one
> > complete description of the process.
> >
> > -Mike
> >
> >
> > Rob Bandler wrote:
> > > Anybody done their own on a '98 - '01 VFR800?
> > What is the PITA factor?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Rob
> > > http://motopumps.com
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > vfr mailing list
> > vfr@xxxxxx
> > For subscription and delivery options:
> > https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> vfr mailing list
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