RE: Vfr Digest, Vol 23, Issue 24

Welcome to an aftermarket clutch in this gen of VFR. When I first got my VFR
it had some clutch slippage issues at around 35,000 miles. I decided to put
in a Barnett Kevelar clutch setup with the setup with the stiffer springs.
Worst mistake I ever made. I had the same problem you do. Just for
clarification purposes I refer to the clutch being "engaged" as when you let
the lever out and the plates contact driving you forward, and "disengaged"
as when you pull in the lever to seperate the plates and you are not being
driven forwared.

In any event I had and still have the same problem. The clutch does not
disengage entirely ever. There is still a light drag even when held all the
way to the bar. It engages over a broad range that begins shortly after
letting the lever out awar from the handlebar. For those of you that want to
pipe in and tell me that a) there is air in the lines somewhere, b)the
master cylinder is weak or leaking, c) the slave cylinder is weak or
leaking, or d) the clutch push rod has gunk on it, trust me it is not any of
the above. I've ruled all out with the aid of another VFR with properly
working parts swapped onto mine including the entire master,slave & line
setup bolted right on and have bled and bled and bled the system, checked
for leaks everwhere and the bleeding was also done at the banjo bolt to
remove those extra few pesky bubbles that always seem to hang around. Only
thing left is that there is something going on with the clutch itself. I did
notice that when I installed the clutch that the kevlar plates were a fair
amount thicker than what was stock, secondly if you are like me you didn't
think to replace the metal plates that go in between the friction plates. If
these are warped it will cause additional contact with the friction plates
and not allow complete disengagement of the clutch. If your clutch basket is
notched from many miles of hard use by one owner or another it may also
cause just enough of a problem to not allow the plates to move apart as
freely. (i've seen some deep deep notches in clutch baskets that eventually
prevented the clutch from disengaging. Never in a VFR but def. in some other
sport bikes that are prone to wheelies etc.)
The stiffer springs are more than likely not the issue. There is more than
enough power in the hydraulic clutch setup to overcome the springs and I
know people that have just added stiffer springs with OEM honda parts and
never had a problem. My clutch still works its just very different and not
very far off from the bar. I've ridden it this way for probably almost 4
years and simply dealth with it. It does make it a pain to switch from bike
to bike because of the drastically different clutch action. This summer I am
due up for an OEM clutch replacement including the metal plates and the
problem will dissapear. I hope this helped and if you want a reccomendation
on how to fix it, I would pull it back apart check to see if the metal
plates are warped, check the thickness differenece between the new plates
and old to see what the overall difference is and when in doubt stick with
the OEM Honda internals.

Jeremy 1994 Honda VFR 750
"I slip the clutch all the time just for the hell of it so I can replace it
but I still haven't killed the Barnett Kevlar plates in 4 years" "I've lost
that battle but I will win the war"


>Message: 5
>Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 22:24:49 +0000
>From: "Darrin Blackman"
>Subject: Need some clutch help 95 VFR
>To: vfr@xxxxxx
>Message-ID:
>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
>Ok I replaced my clutch with EBC kevlar set with stiffer springs, tuned my
>carb for higher elevation, and changed oil and filter. Maybe unfortunately
>I used Amsoil Synth 10W40, I say maybe because the clutch will not
>completely engage, meaning when I go from neutral to first with the clutch
>pulled in the wheel rotates. I know that I need to seat the new plates but
>I went around the block and the clutch is still not completely engage. Is
>my problem the synth oil or something else. I tightened everything to
>spec,
>went back and made sure that there was not a bit of air in the clutch line,
>nothing. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Darrin
>95 Viffer


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Yes I did notice that the new plates were quite a bit thicker. I tried
everything. I swapped my due to some slippage when accelerating hard,
granted I am a big guy so I decided to swap. I figured that kevlar should
be 10x better than the factory cork style plates. The separator plates were
not warped, but there were some burn marks on them. I guess I could order
some new ones and another gasket.

Damn you know I enjoy working on my bike, and I love to upgrade, but I also
really like to ride. this is so disenhartening for me. I don't know if I
can ride my bike like this. I will try again today and see what it is like.
Thanks for chiming in, you do truely have the same story that I have.
Just seems like I cannot pull the clutch in far enough, seems as if it were
a mechanical system I could adjust the cable and get it to work. Thanks
again.

Darrin


>From: "Jeremy Boron"
>To: vfr@xxxxxx, dfblackm@xxxxxx
>Subject: RE: Vfr Digest, Vol 23, Issue 24
>Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 08:03:46 -0500
>
>Welcome to an aftermarket clutch in this gen of VFR. When I first got my
>VFR it had some clutch slippage issues at around 35,000 miles. I decided to
>put in a Barnett Kevelar clutch setup with the setup with the stiffer
>springs. Worst mistake I ever made. I had the same problem you do. Just for
>clarification purposes I refer to the clutch being "engaged" as when you
>let the lever out and the plates contact driving you forward, and
>"disengaged" as when you pull in the lever to seperate the plates and you
>are not being driven forwared.
>
>In any event I had and still have the same problem. The clutch does not
>disengage entirely ever. There is still a light drag even when held all the
>way to the bar. It engages over a broad range that begins shortly after
>letting the lever out awar from the handlebar. For those of you that want
>to pipe in and tell me that a) there is air in the lines somewhere, b)the
>master cylinder is weak or leaking, c) the slave cylinder is weak or
>leaking, or d) the clutch push rod has gunk on it, trust me it is not any
>of the above. I've ruled all out with the aid of another VFR with properly
>working parts swapped onto mine including the entire master,slave & line
>setup bolted right on and have bled and bled and bled the system, checked
>for leaks everwhere and the bleeding was also done at the banjo bolt to
>remove those extra few pesky bubbles that always seem to hang around. Only
>thing left is that there is something going on with the clutch itself. I
>did notice that when I installed the clutch that the kevlar plates were a
>fair amount thicker than what was stock, secondly if you are like me you
>didn't think to replace the metal plates that go in between the friction
>plates. If these are warped it will cause additional contact with the
>friction plates and not allow complete disengagement of the clutch. If your
>clutch basket is notched from many miles of hard use by one owner or
>another it may also cause just enough of a problem to not allow the plates
>to move apart as freely. (i've seen some deep deep notches in clutch
>baskets that eventually prevented the clutch from disengaging. Never in a
>VFR but def. in some other sport bikes that are prone to wheelies etc.)
>The stiffer springs are more than likely not the issue. There is more than
>enough power in the hydraulic clutch setup to overcome the springs and I
>know people that have just added stiffer springs with OEM honda parts and
>never had a problem. My clutch still works its just very different and not
>very far off from the bar. I've ridden it this way for probably almost 4
>years and simply dealth with it. It does make it a pain to switch from bike
>to bike because of the drastically different clutch action. This summer I
>am due up for an OEM clutch replacement including the metal plates and the
>problem will dissapear. I hope this helped and if you want a reccomendation
>on how to fix it, I would pull it back apart check to see if the metal
>plates are warped, check the thickness differenece between the new plates
>and old to see what the overall difference is and when in doubt stick with
>the OEM Honda internals.
>
>Jeremy 1994 Honda VFR 750
>"I slip the clutch all the time just for the hell of it so I can replace it
>but I still haven't killed the Barnett Kevlar plates in 4 years" "I've
>lost that battle but I will win the war"
>
>
>>Message: 5
>>Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 22:24:49 +0000
>>From: "Darrin Blackman"
>>Subject: Need some clutch help 95 VFR
>>To: vfr@xxxxxx
>>Message-ID:
>>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>>
>>Ok I replaced my clutch with EBC kevlar set with stiffer springs, tuned my
>>carb for higher elevation, and changed oil and filter. Maybe
>>unfortunately
>>I used Amsoil Synth 10W40, I say maybe because the clutch will not
>>completely engage, meaning when I go from neutral to first with the clutch
>>pulled in the wheel rotates. I know that I need to seat the new plates
>>but
>>I went around the block and the clutch is still not completely engage. Is
>>my problem the synth oil or something else. I tightened everything to
>>spec,
>>went back and made sure that there was not a bit of air in the clutch
>>line,
>>nothing. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>>Darrin
>>95 Viffer
>
>


_______________________________________________
Vfr mailing list
Vfr@xxxxxx
For subscription and delivery options:
https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr

Well I took it out for a spin around the block, a bit longer today, the
release point is almost immediate, however it is starting to seat in a bit
more, still pulls a bit when comming to a stop and it is still a bit hard to
get into neutral, but it is starting to get better. I never would have
thought that changing this clutch would make the clutch so strong and stiff.
For me I like it just want more range on the pull and release. When I was
out I was riding it kind of hard trying to slip the clutch and get it to
seat in, and it is right on. So thus far there is a big minus and a big
plus. We will see if it continues to get better.

Thanks for the help, I'll keep you posted.

Darrin


>From: "Jeremy Boron"
>To: vfr@xxxxxx, dfblackm@xxxxxx
>Subject: RE: Vfr Digest, Vol 23, Issue 24
>Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 08:03:46 -0500
>
>Welcome to an aftermarket clutch in this gen of VFR. When I first got my
>VFR it had some clutch slippage issues at around 35,000 miles. I decided to
>put in a Barnett Kevelar clutch setup with the setup with the stiffer
>springs. Worst mistake I ever made. I had the same problem you do. Just for
>clarification purposes I refer to the clutch being "engaged" as when you
>let the lever out and the plates contact driving you forward, and
>"disengaged" as when you pull in the lever to seperate the plates and you
>are not being driven forwared.
>
>In any event I had and still have the same problem. The clutch does not
>disengage entirely ever. There is still a light drag even when held all the
>way to the bar. It engages over a broad range that begins shortly after
>letting the lever out awar from the handlebar. For those of you that want
>to pipe in and tell me that a) there is air in the lines somewhere, b)the
>master cylinder is weak or leaking, c) the slave cylinder is weak or
>leaking, or d) the clutch push rod has gunk on it, trust me it is not any
>of the above. I've ruled all out with the aid of another VFR with properly
>working parts swapped onto mine including the entire master,slave & line
>setup bolted right on and have bled and bled and bled the system, checked
>for leaks everwhere and the bleeding was also done at the banjo bolt to
>remove those extra few pesky bubbles that always seem to hang around. Only
>thing left is that there is something going on with the clutch itself. I
>did notice that when I installed the clutch that the kevlar plates were a
>fair amount thicker than what was stock, secondly if you are like me you
>didn't think to replace the metal plates that go in between the friction
>plates. If these are warped it will cause additional contact with the
>friction plates and not allow complete disengagement of the clutch. If your
>clutch basket is notched from many miles of hard use by one owner or
>another it may also cause just enough of a problem to not allow the plates
>to move apart as freely. (i've seen some deep deep notches in clutch
>baskets that eventually prevented the clutch from disengaging. Never in a
>VFR but def. in some other sport bikes that are prone to wheelies etc.)
>The stiffer springs are more than likely not the issue. There is more than
>enough power in the hydraulic clutch setup to overcome the springs and I
>know people that have just added stiffer springs with OEM honda parts and
>never had a problem. My clutch still works its just very different and not
>very far off from the bar. I've ridden it this way for probably almost 4
>years and simply dealth with it. It does make it a pain to switch from bike
>to bike because of the drastically different clutch action. This summer I
>am due up for an OEM clutch replacement including the metal plates and the
>problem will dissapear. I hope this helped and if you want a reccomendation
>on how to fix it, I would pull it back apart check to see if the metal
>plates are warped, check the thickness differenece between the new plates
>and old to see what the overall difference is and when in doubt stick with
>the OEM Honda internals.
>
>Jeremy 1994 Honda VFR 750
>"I slip the clutch all the time just for the hell of it so I can replace it
>but I still haven't killed the Barnett Kevlar plates in 4 years" "I've
>lost that battle but I will win the war"
>
>
>>Message: 5
>>Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 22:24:49 +0000
>>From: "Darrin Blackman"
>>Subject: Need some clutch help 95 VFR
>>To: vfr@xxxxxx
>>Message-ID:
>>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>>
>>Ok I replaced my clutch with EBC kevlar set with stiffer springs, tuned my
>>carb for higher elevation, and changed oil and filter. Maybe
>>unfortunately
>>I used Amsoil Synth 10W40, I say maybe because the clutch will not
>>completely engage, meaning when I go from neutral to first with the clutch
>>pulled in the wheel rotates. I know that I need to seat the new plates
>>but
>>I went around the block and the clutch is still not completely engage. Is
>>my problem the synth oil or something else. I tightened everything to
>>spec,
>>went back and made sure that there was not a bit of air in the clutch
>>line,
>>nothing. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>>Darrin
>>95 Viffer
>
>


_______________________________________________
Vfr mailing list
Vfr@xxxxxx
For subscription and delivery options:
https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr

At 06:39 PM 2/26/2006, you wrote:

>Well I took it out for a spin around the block, a bit longer today, the
>release point is almost immediate, however it is starting to seat in a bit
>more, still pulls a bit when comming to a stop and it is still a bit hard to
>get into neutral, but it is starting to get better. I never would have
>thought that changing this clutch would make the clutch so strong and stiff.
> For me I like it just want more range on the pull and release. When I was
>out I was riding it kind of hard trying to slip the clutch and get it to
>seat in, and it is right on. So thus far there is a big minus and a big
>plus. We will see if it continues to get better.
>
>Thanks for the help, I'll keep you posted.
>
>Darrin

Hey, I have not done a motorcycle clutch in ages, but I'll throw this out
anyway.

Any multi plate clutch pack (like in a motorcycle clutch, cage differential
side gear set, some industrial clutches and certain cage transmission
applications) is supposed to have a maxiumum stack height. That is the
total height of all the frictions and all the metal plates.
when you are assembling the clutch pack in the middle of the rebuilt, you
are supposed to measure this stacking height and choose the appropriate shim.

I sounds like in your case either the total stack height is too tall and
you need thinner 'steels' and a thinner or no shim.
It seems apparent that you have a major thickness issue and trying to wear
it in is a bad idea (for two reasons).

1. that is a whole lot of material that you are trying to "wear" away and
make the clutch operate properly. The only way you can do that is if you
ride around constantly holding the clutch in the limited enagement zone
making it slip all the time and grind away extra friction material. this is
a bad idea because that will generate a ton of excess heat and probably
will glaze the friction plates (which is what it sounds was your original
issue).
2. Even if you manage to not glaze the plates, warp the steels or chunk the
plates, you will still have the contamination issue with the oil, all the
friction materials (think grit) will be ground down and dumped into your
oil. If you keep trying to ride it like that you will just be dumping the
grit produced by thousands and thousands of miles of wear into the oil in
the crankcase. All these gritty bits will grind at other engine parts much
faster than normal because there is no place for them to go. Sure the
filter will catch the early stuff, but then it will become clogged and the
pressure bypass will open, leaving the motor with no oil filtration,
grinding all the clearances in the motor with this slurry of clutch grit.

I know it is a lot of work and very disappointing, but please, for you VFR
and you sanity go back in and do it right. It might be as simple as
removing a shim or sanding down a couple of the friction and steels on a
sand paper covered sheet of glass.

JohnS


JohnS
"Forging my body in the Fires of my Will"


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