Tube in a tubeless tire?

Are there any good reasons not to repair a nail hole in a tubeless
tire by installing a tube?

All prior debates I recall were either Internal plug, external plug or
replace the tire. I don't recall anyone proposing tube use and wonder
why. (I am not suggesting such but want some good reasons to convince
a newbie friend against it.)

--
Thanks.
Bob

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In a passenger car environment, a radial tire tube is different to a bias
ply tire tube. Do they even make a radial tire tube for motorcycles?

doug

-----Original Message-----
From: vfr-bounces@xxxxxx [mailto:vfr-bounces@xxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Bob Chappuis
Sent: May 10, 2006 3:31 PM
To: SvRider; vfr email list
Subject: Tube in a tubeless tire?

Are there any good reasons not to repair a nail hole in a tubeless tire
by installing a tube?

All prior debates I recall were either Internal plug, external plug or
replace the tire. I don't recall anyone proposing tube use and wonder why.
(I am not suggesting such but want some good reasons to convince a newbie
friend against it.)

--
Thanks.
Bob

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*** I believe I remember reading somewhere that is a Very Bad Idea. Don't
remember all the reasons.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Chappuis"


> Are there any good reasons not to repair a nail hole in a tubeless
> tire by installing a tube?
>


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On 10 May, 2006, at 17:10, Oil Guy wrote:

> *** I believe I remember reading somewhere that is a Very Bad
> Idea. Don't
> remember all the reasons.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Chappuis"
>
>
>> Are there any good reasons not to repair a nail hole in a
>> tubeless
>> tire by installing a tube?
>>
>

From the Dunlop website:
"Never fit tubes on radial motorcycle tires nor fit radials to rims
requiring tubes. "
and
"Some punctures in motorcycle tires can be repaired if no other
damage is present. Dunlop recommends only individual permanent plug-
patch repairs of small tread area punctures from within the demounted
tire by a qualified tire repair shop or motorcycle dealer. Never
perform an exterior repair and _never_use_an_innertube_ as a
substitute for a proper repair. Your bike should not exceed 50 mph
for the first 24 hours after the repair and the repaired tire should
never be used over 80 mph. Dunlop speed ratings are voided by repairs."

The Metzeler (and Pirelli) brochure that I've got says the following
on p. 28:
"NOTE: Not all cast wheels, whether aluminum or magnesium, are
suitable for tubeless tire fitment. Some rims require tubes. With a
Metzeler tube inserted, a Metzeler tubeless tire may be fitten to a
tube-type wheel."

"(5)Tubeless tires suitable for assembly with a tube on a tube-type
rim may be used on tube or tubeless rims but not for applications
that exceed 120mph. When installing a tube in a tubeless tire do not
tighten valve system lock nut until it is seated and inflated to
proper riding pressure."

Bridgestone only says (p. 29): "Never use a tube as a substitute for
a proper repair."


What do we have? Only Metzeler/Pirelli even discuss the use of tubes
in tubeless tires, though not in the context of repairing the tire.

In the context of a repair, all the manufacturers that discuss tubes
specifically say not to do it. Here is where lots of people jump in
about how manufacturers don't want you to repair tires when you can
purchase a new one, etc. EVERY MANUFACTURER DISCUSSES REPAIRS, AND
ALLOWS REPAIRS UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS. I just want to get that out
there before it gets drowned out. So, given that repairs are allowed,
but even when allowed the use of tubes is specifically prohibited, it
seems unlikely to be simple marketing.

As for WHY tubes are bad, I could speculate all you like about it. I
have a better suggestion: ask the manufacturer. If you don't trust
their answers, why do you trust their product?

later,
Johnj


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On 10 May, 2006, at 18:54, kurrremkarmerruk wrote:

>
>
> --- John Johnson wrote:
> So, given that
>> repairs are allowed,
>> but even when allowed the use of tubes is
>> specifically prohibited, it
>> seems unlikely to be simple marketing.
>>
>
> It is my opinion that it is a combination of factors.
> One, yes they would rather sell a new tire, and two,
> it's CYA trying to avoid lawsuits, they can say, hey,
> we WARNED you not to plug that tire! ;o)
>
I'll agree that these are certainly factors, but in this case there's
the obvious question: why not simply recommend never to attempt a
repair at all? None of the "allowed/recommended" repairs are of the
"get you to the next gas station" sort (they're all explicit about
not attempting a repair except from the inside of a dismounted tire),
so marketing and CYA would seem to prefer the "do not attempt to
repair motorcycle tires" approach.

In addition, there are perfectly good structural arguments for
preferring not to repair tires (again, not repairing at all), but
certainly not leaving an unsupported hole in the tire:
-you can't tell whether the zero-degree belt has been damaged.
-the unsupported hole can enlarge while in motion, or put extra
strain on the carcass/tread layer interface, making delamination more
likely.
-the unsupported hole allows foreign objects to easily puncture the
tube, and tube punctures lead to a far more dangerous "blowout" than
the puncture of the original tubeless tire typically experiences(a
slow/slowish leak-down).

Finally, I will note that I used the phrase "simple marketing." ;-)

later,
Johnj

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