Chain Problems, but possibly more

Hey guys I have a bit of a problem with my chain on my 97 and was wondering if anyone could help out with some advice. I bought the bike (my first) in march last year with 98,000km on the clock. I do a 200km round trip every day, mainly on the high way at 100-120km/hr. Anyway the problem started prob about 2-3months after i got the bike, was riding home one day and the master link on the chain came off and left me on the side of the road, luckily no crash, but cracked my front sprocket cover and demolished my chain guard (both replaced with 2nd hand ones now). Now, I lubed the chain once a week and cleaned (kero) and lubed every 2 weeks. My dad said that the chain had a fish link and that was why it failed. So we fixed the bike and put on new sprockets (dont know what brand - standard teeth) and new chain (good quality EK oring chain). After prob 15km the chin became a bit slack, so i tightened it and eventually it become too tight and realised i had a tight spot. So after r!
igorous cleaning the tight spot appeared to go, but then came back, along with what looked like rust dust on the chain in parts. Took it back to the guy i got the chain from and said that there was prob something wrong with the chain (about 135,000km), so got me a deal from the EK rep basically i would get free sprockets when i got a new chain (as i did not use their recommended sprockets) and my chain guy gave me a standard heavy duty chain at cost to last out my current sprockets, which i thought was not a bad idea. Anyway have had the chain on for a few weeks now, clean and lube every week. After the first week the chain had allot of slack, so fixed it up and it came back. along with the rust dust from earlier, but this time alot more, all over the chain and else where. I think i can hear a strange noise when i pull the clutch in but dont know if it should be there or not. Dont really know how to describe it. So my dad and I are thinking something is wrong, like out of a!
llign or maybe worse, there also appears to be oil(not lube) coming fr
om around my front sprocket cover, but my oil level is fine).
If anyone could shed some light on the situation it would be much appreciated.
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Hmmm well, the oil leak and the chain problem are
separate probably-- mine turned out to be the o-ring
where the water pump slides into the crankcase. After
replacing that, the water pump cover o-ring, and the
sprocket cover gasket, the leak disappeared.

As for the chain-- once dirt gets past the o-rings (or
x-rings, I use DID x-ring chain) you get the rust and
tight spots. You can damage the o-rings by cleaning
too much, especially if you leave the chain soaking in
kerosene.


The manual says never to use a clip-type master link,
always use a rivet.

--- cailt@xxxxxx wrote:

> Hey guys I have a bit of a problem with my chain on
> my 97 and was wondering if anyone could help out
> with some advice. I bought the bike (my first) in
> march last year with 98,000km on the clock. I do a
> 200km round trip every day, mainly on the high way
> at 100-120km/hr. Anyway the problem started prob
> about 2-3months after i got the bike, was riding
> home one day and the master link on the chain came
> off and left me on the side of the road, luckily no
> crash, but cracked my front sprocket cover and
> demolished my chain guard (both replaced with 2nd
> hand ones now). Now, I lubed the chain once a week
> and cleaned (kero) and lubed every 2 weeks. My dad
> said that the chain had a fish link and that was why
> it failed. So we fixed the bike and put on new
> sprockets (dont know what brand - standard teeth)
> and new chain (good quality EK oring chain). After
> prob 15km the chin became a bit slack, so i
> tightened it and eventually it become too tight and
> realised i had a tight spot. So after r!
> igorous cleaning the tight spot appeared to go, but
> then came back, along with what looked like rust
> dust on the chain in parts. Took it back to the guy
> i got the chain from and said that there was prob
> something wrong with the chain (about 135,000km), so
> got me a deal from the EK rep basically i would get
> free sprockets when i got a new chain (as i did not
> use their recommended sprockets) and my chain guy
> gave me a standard heavy duty chain at cost to last
> out my current sprockets, which i thought was not a
> bad idea. Anyway have had the chain on for a few
> weeks now, clean and lube every week. After the
> first week the chain had allot of slack, so fixed it
> up and it came back. along with the rust dust from
> earlier, but this time alot more, all over the chain
> and else where. I think i can hear a strange noise
> when i pull the clutch in but dont know if it should
> be there or not. Dont really know how to describe
> it. So my dad and I are thinking something is wrong,
> like out of a!
> llign or maybe worse, there also appears to be
> oil(not lube) coming fr
> om around my front sprocket cover, but my oil level
> is fine).
> If anyone could shed some light on the situation it
> would be much appreciated.
> _______________________________________________
> Vfr mailing list
> Vfr@xxxxxx
> For subscription and delivery options:
> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>


------------------------------------------------------------------------

1996 VFR750F

1991 Prelude Si

2006 Flying Ford Anglia

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thanks for the input, will have to have a look at the water pump
never soaked it in kero but did go at it with a tooth brush, but not untill i found the tight spot.
Thanks again



> kurrremkarmerruk wrote:
>
> Hmmm well, the oil leak and the chain problem are
> separate probably-- mine turned out to be the o-ring
> where the water pump slides into the crankcase. After
> replacing that, the water pump cover o-ring, and the
> sprocket cover gasket, the leak disappeared.
>
> As for the chain-- once dirt gets past the o-rings (or
> x-rings, I use DID x-ring chain) you get the rust and
> tight spots. You can damage the o-rings by cleaning
> too much, especially if you leave the chain soaking in
> kerosene.
>
>
> The manual says never to use a clip-type master link,
> always use a rivet.
>
> --- cailt@xxxxxx wrote:
>
> > Hey guys I have a bit of a problem with my chain on
> > my 97 and was wondering if anyone could help out
> > with some advice. I bought the bike (my first) in
> > march last year with 98,000km on the clock. I do a
> > 200km round trip every day, mainly on the high way
> > at 100-120km/hr. Anyway the problem started prob
> > about 2-3months after i got the bike, was riding
> > home one day and the master link on the chain came
> > off and left me on the side of the road, luckily no
> > crash, but cracked my front sprocket cover and
> > demolished my chain guard (both replaced with 2nd
> > hand ones now). Now, I lubed the chain once a week
> > and cleaned (kero) and lubed every 2 weeks. My dad
> > said that the chain had a fish link and that was why
> > it failed. So we fixed the bike and put on new
> > sprockets (dont know what brand - standard teeth)
> > and new chain (good quality EK oring chain). After
> > prob 15km the chin became a bit slack, so i
> > tightened it and eventually it become too tight and
> > realised i had a tight spot. So after r!
> > igorous cleaning the tight spot appeared to go, but
> > then came back, along with what looked like rust
> > dust on the chain in parts. Took it back to the guy
> > i got the chain from and said that there was prob
> > something wrong with the chain (about 135,000km), so
> > got me a deal from the EK rep basically i would get
> > free sprockets when i got a new chain (as i did not
> > use their recommended sprockets) and my chain guy
> > gave me a standard heavy duty chain at cost to last
> > out my current sprockets, which i thought was not a
> > bad idea. Anyway have had the chain on for a few
> > weeks now, clean and lube every week. After the
> > first week the chain had allot of slack, so fixed it
> > up and it came back. along with the rust dust from
> > earlier, but this time alot more, all over the chain
> > and else where. I think i can hear a strange noise
> > when i pull the clutch in but dont know if it should
> > be there or not. Dont really know how to describe
> > it. So my dad and I are thinking something is wrong,
> > like out of a!
> > llign or maybe worse, there also appears to be
> > oil(not lube) coming fr
> > om around my front sprocket cover, but my oil level
> > is fine).
> > If anyone could shed some light on the situation it
> > would be much appreciated.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Vfr mailing list
> > Vfr@xxxxxx
> > For subscription and delivery options:
> > https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 1996 VFR750F
>
> 1991 Prelude Si
>
> 2006 Flying Ford Anglia
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
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If the replacement chain you were given is the "standard Heavy duty" variety
then I would guess that it's not an "O" ring or "X" ring. It probably has
no sealing rings at all in each link. If this is the case then you will get
rust from the chain links as the lube is coming out of the link pins due to
breakdown from heat or some other contamination like water. It's also
normal to have a tight spot in the chain adjustment, where the chain
tightens up as it travels around the sprockets. What's not normal and may
be an indicator of worn sprockets and/or chain is if only certain links are
seizing or won't bend/pivot freely. Do you notice any cracking or snapping
noise at very slow speeds? If so this can be an indicator of a worn out
chain and sprockets. If indeed you do have oil coming from the crankcase
and getting on the chain due to your previous chain breakage then you need
to diagnose that quickly. I've never had that sort of oil leak so I would
give consideration the other listers advice in dealing with it.

Denny

-----Original Message-----
From: vfr-bounces@xxxxxx [mailto:vfr-bounces@xxxxxx]On Behalf
Of cailt@xxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 11:49 PM
To: vfr@xxxxxx
Subject: Re: Re: Chain Problems, but possibly more


thanks for the input, will have to have a look at the water pump
never soaked it in kero but did go at it with a tooth brush, but not untill
i found the tight spot.
Thanks again



> kurrremkarmerruk wrote:
>
> Hmmm well, the oil leak and the chain problem are
> separate probably-- mine turned out to be the o-ring
> where the water pump slides into the crankcase. After
> replacing that, the water pump cover o-ring, and the
> sprocket cover gasket, the leak disappeared.
>
> As for the chain-- once dirt gets past the o-rings (or
> x-rings, I use DID x-ring chain) you get the rust and
> tight spots. You can damage the o-rings by cleaning
> too much, especially if you leave the chain soaking in
> kerosene.
>
>
> The manual says never to use a clip-type master link,
> always use a rivet.
>
> --- cailt@xxxxxx wrote:
>
> > Hey guys I have a bit of a problem with my chain on
> > my 97 and was wondering if anyone could help out
> > with some advice. I bought the bike (my first) in
> > march last year with 98,000km on the clock. I do a
> > 200km round trip every day, mainly on the high way
> > at 100-120km/hr. Anyway the problem started prob
> > about 2-3months after i got the bike, was riding
> > home one day and the master link on the chain came
> > off and left me on the side of the road, luckily no
> > crash, but cracked my front sprocket cover and
> > demolished my chain guard (both replaced with 2nd
> > hand ones now). Now, I lubed the chain once a week
> > and cleaned (kero) and lubed every 2 weeks. My dad
> > said that the chain had a fish link and that was why
> > it failed. So we fixed the bike and put on new
> > sprockets (dont know what brand - standard teeth)
> > and new chain (good quality EK oring chain). After
> > prob 15km the chin became a bit slack, so i
> > tightened it and eventually it become too tight and
> > realised i had a tight spot. So after r!
> > igorous cleaning the tight spot appeared to go, but
> > then came back, along with what looked like rust
> > dust on the chain in parts. Took it back to the guy
> > i got the chain from and said that there was prob
> > something wrong with the chain (about 135,000km), so
> > got me a deal from the EK rep basically i would get
> > free sprockets when i got a new chain (as i did not
> > use their recommended sprockets) and my chain guy
> > gave me a standard heavy duty chain at cost to last
> > out my current sprockets, which i thought was not a
> > bad idea. Anyway have had the chain on for a few
> > weeks now, clean and lube every week. After the
> > first week the chain had allot of slack, so fixed it
> > up and it came back. along with the rust dust from
> > earlier, but this time alot more, all over the chain
> > and else where. I think i can hear a strange noise
> > when i pull the clutch in but dont know if it should
> > be there or not. Dont really know how to describe
> > it. So my dad and I are thinking something is wrong,
> > like out of a!
> > llign or maybe worse, there also appears to be
> > oil(not lube) coming fr
> > om around my front sprocket cover, but my oil level
> > is fine).
> > If anyone could shed some light on the situation it
> > would be much appreciated.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Vfr mailing list
> > Vfr@xxxxxx
> > For subscription and delivery options:
> > https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 1996 VFR750F
>
> 1991 Prelude Si
>
> 2006 Flying Ford Anglia
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
_______________________________________________
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Vfr@xxxxxx
For subscription and delivery options:
https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr


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On 28 May, 2006, at 19:28, cailt@xxxxxx wrote:

> Hey guys I have a bit of a problem with my chain on my 97 and was
> wondering if anyone could help out with some advice. I bought the
> bike (my first) in march last year with 98,000km on the clock. I do
> a 200km round trip every day, mainly on the high way at 100-120km/hr.

You would probably do well to look into an automatic chain oiler,
given the miles that you do. Scottoiler, Pro-oiler, hawkoiler, or
even the lubeman. Search the web and list archives for more info
about all of them. I've got a scottoiler so can supplement the
archives if you've got additional questions.

[tale of woe, including failed master link, rattling when clutch
pulled in, fast chain wear, snipped]

1. WRT the master link, I'd go with kurrremkarmerruk and say that you
should insist on a rivet-type master link.
2. I also agree that the clutch issue is likely entirely separate
from the chain wear (seepage and rattle). Start a new thread if you
want to discuss the clutch, so that we can keep things straight. I
don't have enough information to say much of anything about this.
3. I think your current chain's condition is to be expected. heavy-
duty chain on worn sprockets will likely result in extra-quick wear.
Surface rust on exposed steel is to be expected. The only way to
prevent it is to clean and oil the chain more often, and even then
brief exposure to any water can result in surface rust. If it's
isolated pinpricks, and the chain appears to be satisfactory in all
other respects, I'd not worry too much about it.

HTH,
Johnj
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mandag 29 maj 2006 05:48 skrev cailt@xxxxxx:
> thanks for the input, will have to have a look at the water pump
> never soaked it in kero but did go at it with a tooth brush, but not untill
> i found the tight spot. Thanks again

What's the idea behind cleaning the chain? Just give it some lube and leave
it, I say.

Anders

--
- Debian GNU/Linux - KDE 3.5.2 - KMail 1.9.1 -
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> What's the idea behind cleaning the chain? Just give it some lube
> and leave it, I say.

If the lube process can wash away at least a good portion of the grit, maybe.

Otherwise the grit accumulates and accelerates wear of the o/x-rings, rollers, teeth, etc.

Depending on where you leave, there can be a lot of dirt and grit, such as in/near major cities or construction sites, coastal (beach) areas, etc. And depending on the lube you use, the lube can actually attract a lot of that particulate mess in short order.


-Brad

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On 29 May, 2006, at 14:28, Anders Ellenshøj Andersen wrote:

> mandag 29 maj 2006 05:48 skrev cailt@xxxxxx:
>> thanks for the input, will have to have a look at the water pump
>> never soaked it in kero but did go at it with a tooth brush, but
>> not untill
>> i found the tight spot. Thanks again
>
> What's the idea behind cleaning the chain? Just give it some lube
> and leave
> it, I say.
>
> Anders
>
The idea, as I understand it, is to remove dirt, grit, and gum that
gets mixed in with the old lube. This prevents the contaminants from
grinding away o-rings (if there are any) and metal at wear/contact
areas. The kerosine/paraffin also dissolves and washes gum off of o-
rings, preventing them from being glued to the contact surfaces and
subsequently torn when the surfaces move relative to each other.

As I say, that's the idea. Whether or not it's important to do this,
I really don't know...I've got a total-loss, constant-feed oiling
system (and I'm not talking about a H-D product!) ;-). What I will
say is that my chain, AFAIK, is 27k miles old, and I've adjusted
(versus simply checking) my chain slack twice in 17k miles. As
always, YMMV

later,
Johnj


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--- Brad Berson wrote:

> > What's the idea behind cleaning the chain? Just
> give it some lube
> > and leave it, I say.

I agree, if you are using a lube that flushes out dirt
and "grit" , sprayed down thru the chain so the dirt
goes on the floor and the lube remains behind on the chain...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

1996 VFR750F

1991 Prelude Si

2006 Flying Ford Anglia

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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Sounds like you're making it too tight when you adjust it. Most people do.
I always watched in amazement (and with amusement) as others tightened their
chains in the middle of weekend rides. It's too much.

Better to have it be a little loose than a little tight. Too tight wears
the chain and sprockets faster.

Your "leak" is probably accumulated chain lube and cleaning fluid
accumulated inside the front sprocket cover and leaking down. When you
change chain and sprockets next time, be sure to clean that area out real
well too.

Later,
M

-----Original Message-----
Hey guys I have a bit of a problem with my chain on my 97 and was wondering
if anyone So we fixed the bike and put on new sprockets (dont know
what brand - standard teeth) and new chain (good quality EK oring chain).
After prob 15km the chin became a bit slack, so i tightened it and
eventually it become too tight and realised i had a tight spot. So after r!
igorous cleaning the tight spot appeared to go, but then came back, along
with what looked like rust dust on the chain in parts. Took it back to the
After the first week the chain had allot of slack, so fixed it up and
it came back. along with the rust dust from earlier, but this time alot
more, all over the chain and else where.
llign or maybe worse, there also appears to be oil(not lube) coming fr
om around my front sprocket cover, but my oil level is fine).
If anyone could shed some light on the situation it would be much
appreciated.



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Mike Solace wrote:

>Sounds like you're making it too tight when you adjust it. Most people do.
>I always watched in amazement (and with amusement) as others tightened their
>chains in the middle of weekend rides. It's too much.
>
>Better to have it be a little loose than a little tight. Too tight wears
>the chain and sprockets faster.
>
>
>
I have seen this as well. Coming from the dirt-bike realm for 10 years
before ever throwing a leg over a street bike I know all about chain
wear. Back in the 70's and early 80's O-ring chains were quite rare in
the dirt-bike world and quite expensive. I ran only the conventional
type and took immaculate care of them. After every race the chain was
degreased and re-oiled and wiped of any excess lube (to keep the grit
out).

But over-tightening chains is a big deal because as the suspension
moves, so does the chain tension. There is a spot in the rear swingarm
travel where chain tension is tightest -rarely is that at the point
where static no-rider sag leaves the bike as you maintenance it. Often
that is one of the loosest spots! So if you tighten the chain so that
it is tight there, it will be super-tight at the pinch points of the
travel. This just EATS sprockets -and then worn sprockets eat chains.

Let the chain be a little loose, as long as it isn't slamming into
anything it's not going to hurt anything. That is what those rollers
and sliders are for. They are cheap compared to new chains and
sprockets (and countershaft seals and bearings, along with wheel
bearings...)

If you hear it slopping around back there, just keep an ear on it. I
can hear the chain even when it is too tight -that isn't necessarily a
big deal.

Just Keep the O-rings from getting too dried out and you will be OK.
Oiling the chain when you get home from a long ride and it is still hot
is the best. I try and oil my chain every tank of gas at least but it
is probably every other. It only takes a minute to put the bike on the
centerstand and shoot it while it idles in 2nd gear (less jerky than
1st) before you put it away -but sometimes I'm just tired and mentally
fatigued and only want to get the thing pushed in all nestled in next to
the cage and get in the house. One other good thing about oiling the
chain at this time, besides the fact that it is still hot and will
penetrate into the O-rings and saturate them better, is that when you
stop the bike after 20 seconds of this the bike will not fling all the
oil into the chain guard and all over the wheel and tire for the next
200 miles as it would if you oiled the chain before you left.

Just a few things to think about. I get about 20K out of my
chain/sprockets. Always replace them as a set too -but that is pretty
common knowledge amongst the non-newbies to riding.

-Jim
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On 5/28/06, cailt@xxxxxx wrote:
> or maybe worse, there also appears to be oil(not lube) coming
> from around my front sprocket cover, but my oil level is fine).

Yikes!

As others have pointed out, you've been running your chain far too
tight. My guess is that you "took out the slack" with the bike on the
centerstand? The chain tightens as the suspension compresses. This
means that *all* the compression force is currently being taken out on
your front sprocket.

All that load on the front sprocket is destroying the output shaft
bearing. It sounds to me like you have ruined that bearing and seal,
and now engine oil is coming out.

Let's hope I'm wrong!

--
Jeff
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Just want to say thanks to everyone for their help with the chain.
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Ditto.

Paul G. Nagy III
'99 VFR800 fi with a new DID Chain, loosely strung
Clovis, NM 88101


-----Original Message-----
From: vfr-bounces@xxxxxx [mailto:vfr-bounces@xxxxxx] On Behalf
Of cailt@xxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 7:51 PM
To: vfr@xxxxxx
Subject: re: Chain problems, but possibly more


Just want to say thanks to everyone for their help with the chain.
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