'94VFR front end questions

Oh wise and benevolent list,

I'm getting ready for a comprehensive front end massage on my '94
VFR750. I've got VFR800 springs from John Alexander, and I've eBay'd
a set of CBR600f3 forks which will provide me with new damping
internals (re-valving will have to wait until I've got a real job,
I'm afraid).

Looking ahead to this project, I've got a couple of questions,
perhaps all related:
1. I don't know how long bushings usually last. My VFR has almost 28k
miles on it. Should I go ahead and buy new fork bushings and drop
them in while everything's apart?

2. Every once in a while, I detect what feels like some "slop" or
movement at the front end, and I'm trying to track it down.
Basically, there's a mild "mechanical" feeling or very soft "clunk."
It particularly happens when, e.g., I've braked to a stop, then
backed into a parking space and use my front brakes to halt my rear-
ward motion. It's not my brake components, so I'm thinking either
fork bushings or head bearings. I've checked the rotation of the
steering head, and there are no notches or binding in the travel.
Does anyone have any opinions about the most likely culprit?

3. While on a recent trip with my older sister (out to Blacksburg,
VA, then down to Hot Springs, NC, yeah I should write up a ride
report, I know), I noticed a bit of head-shake right at 35mph, no
matter the gear. At the time, I figured that it was because I had a
bunch of luggage/camping gear on my Ventura rack. I've felt it
occasionally afterwards, though. It's _far_ less noticeable without
luggage, so that's definitely a factor, but I'm wondering if this
might help with the answers to the first two questions. I never did
notice any headshake before the trip, but then I was riding rather
more aggressively during the trip than I typically do here at home.

4. I'm still looking for any information pertaining to the CBR600
internals swap. I've checked the list archives already, and not come
up with anything obvious. Anybody have something tucked away in their
bookmarks or something?

So, them's the questions. Thanks in advance for any answers.

later,
johnj
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> 1. ...Should I go ahead and buy new fork bushings and drop
> them in while everything's apart?

I can't think of a reason not. They aren't that expensive.


> 2. & 3. Every once in a while, I detect what feels like some

> "slop" or movement at the front end, and I'm trying to track
..
> it down Does anyone have any opinions about the most likely
culprit?

Check your front wheel bearings. I've found bad front
wheel bearings on a bike with only 11,000 miles on it, and the
symptoms are similar to those caused by play anywhere else in
the front end.


> 4. I'm still looking for any information pertaining to the
CBR600
> internals swap. I've checked the list archives already, and
not come
> up with anything obvious. Anybody have something tucked away
> in their bookmarks or something?


http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/i...topic=9592&hl=
f3+fork


http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/i...topic=9493&hl=
gold+valve

Adding a few shims from the F3 to your VFR valves should
firm the fork without spending the money on a re-valve kit.
Say 1 16mm shim on the compression valves and two more per
valve on the rebound stacks. That's about the difference
between stock VFR and F3 valve stacks anyway.

-C


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On 9 Jun, 2006, at 15:17, HawkChris wrote:

>
>> 1. ...Should I go ahead and buy new fork bushings and drop
>> them in while everything's apart?
>
> I can't think of a reason not. They aren't that expensive.
>
>
>> 2. & 3. Every once in a while, I detect what feels like some
>> "slop" or movement at the front end, and I'm trying to track
>> .it down Does anyone have any opinions about the most likely
>> culprit?
>
> Check your front wheel bearings. I've found bad front
> wheel bearings on a bike with only 11,000 miles on it, and the
> symptoms are similar to those caused by play anywhere else in
> the front end.

Thanks. I've also been pointed to the front brake calipers as a
possibility. Apparently the pins, springs, and pad retaining clips
wear and allow things to slop around. I'll check some of this out and
maybe just toss new pad retention gear in there anyway.
>
>
>> 4. I'm still looking for any information pertaining to the
>> CBR600 internals swap. I've checked the list archives already, and
>> not come up with anything obvious. Anybody have something tucked away
>> in their bookmarks or something?
>
> http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/i...topic=9592&hl=
> f3+fork
>
> http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/i...topic=9493&hl=
> gold+valve
>
> Adding a few shims from the F3 to your VFR valves should
> firm the fork without spending the money on a re-valve kit.
> Say 1 16mm shim on the compression valves and two more per
> valve on the rebound stacks. That's about the difference
> between stock VFR and F3 valve stacks anyway.
>

Ooooooh! Pictures!!! Thanks a lot, that's exactly what I was looking
for.

On 9 Jun, 2006, at 17:17, StlthHsta@xxxxxx wrote:
> John,
> While you've got the whole front end apart (why aren't you doing
> this in winter??) go with tapered steering head bearings. Helps
> alot. At least service and retorque the oem's, that is the main
> sorce of your headshake.
>
> Tom McKiernan
> '93 Land Shark

Well, I've not taken anything apart yet. I've gotten the springs in,
and am waiting on the f3 forks. I'm not doing this over winter because:
a) I expect that I'll be far too busy to spend time on this once
winter comes around. I'll be in full job-hunt by then, and when
you're looking for an academic job at the same time as you're
finishing your dissertation, things get crazy.
b) I figure that if I get my ducks in a row beforehand, I'll be able
to do the fork job in a day or two. I'll take that if it helps, and
everything that I've read indicates that it does.
c) sometimes I'm in the mood to work on the bike instead of riding
it. It floats my boat, YMMV. :)

The head bearings are another matter altogether. The big problem with
that job is that I've not got the Honda tool, nor do I have the means
to make one here. I am planning on going with tapered roller bearings
at some point (even got the part numbers for the All Balls racing
set), but I hadn't made any firm plans yet. That project will be
another thread, I think.


later,
Johnj
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On 6/9/06, HawkChris wrote:
> > 1. ...Should I go ahead and buy new fork bushings and drop
> > them in while everything's apart?
>
> I can't think of a reason not. They aren't that expensive.

I will offer up a reason: he might screw it up! ;-)

I'm pretty good with a wrench. I have a toolbox that's taller than
any girlfriend I've had. If that doesn't spell "good mechanic," I
don't know what does. ;-)

I thought I'd be clever and change the bushings on my Transalp at 30k
miles. I actually screwed it up (the bushings pushed past each other,
so I had to force the bushing out of the lower fork leg using, *ahem*
unfortunate means). I'm pretty well convinced that I actually made
the fork action *worse* by adding new bushings, seals, springs, and
Gold Valve Emulators. Not that it matters, because right away a taxi
launched out in front of me and broke up the bike anyway...

Anyway, if you're confident you'll do it right (i.e. tap-tap-tap not
tap-tap-goddamnit-puuuuull-puuuuuuull-break), then go for it.
Otherwise, leave well enough alone. I don't think that modern,
Teflon-coated bushings wear much...

--
Jeff
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On 9 Jun, 2006, at 19:36, Jeff Fitzsimons wrote:

> On 6/9/06, HawkChris wrote:
>>> 1. ...Should I go ahead and buy new fork bushings and drop
>>> them in while everything's apart?
>>
>> I can't think of a reason not. They aren't that expensive.
>
> I will offer up a reason: he might screw it up! ;-)
>
> I'm pretty good with a wrench. I have a toolbox that's taller than
> any girlfriend I've had. If that doesn't spell "good mechanic," I
> don't know what does. ;-)
>
> I thought I'd be clever and change the bushings on my Transalp at 30k
> miles. I actually screwed it up (the bushings pushed past each other,
> so I had to force the bushing out of the lower fork leg using, *ahem*
> unfortunate means). I'm pretty well convinced that I actually made
> the fork action *worse* by adding new bushings, seals, springs, and
> Gold Valve Emulators. Not that it matters, because right away a taxi
> launched out in front of me and broke up the bike anyway...
>
> Anyway, if you're confident you'll do it right (i.e. tap-tap-tap not
> tap-tap-goddamnit-puuuuull-puuuuuuull-break), then go for it.
> Otherwise, leave well enough alone. I don't think that modern,
> Teflon-coated bushings wear much...
>

Well, one of the things that I saw on my recent motorcycle trip was
the bushing off of a '94 BMW K1100RS. It was badly worn, and worn
irregularly (front was all copper, sides were all teflon, back was
half and half). That bike had 60k on it rather than 28, but there you
go.

Right now, I'm just planning: collecting parts, collecting
information, getting things sorted out. I may very well shelve the
whole thing until I can scrape up the money for a professional to do
the work, but I want to know what's going on before I make any
decisions.

Driving the bushings and seals is something that worries me,
actually. A very experienced mechanic screwed up a fork seal on that
same trip (on a BMS R1150GS, so it really didn't matter). I may very
well practice by pulling the f3 forks down and see how I feel about
it. If I like how it feels, I'll go ahead. If not, I haven't done
anything to the VFR yet. ;-)

later,
Johnj
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On 6/9/06, John Johnson wrote:
> Driving the bushings and seals is something that worries me,
> actually. A very experienced mechanic screwed up a fork seal on that

In my experience, that part's not so bad. I find a PVC pipe
approximately the same inner diameter as the upper fork leg. I cut
something like a 3" length of it. If it's too snug, I sand it a bit
so that I can slide it back off when I'm done. Then I use a length of
2x4 against it, and hammer the 2x4 (that way you can hammer pretty far
from the fork leg and still apply direct downward force). Light taps
all around it and the fork seal goes in straight.

As for the bushings, just remember that if you pull the upper fork leg
out of the slider, use a *lot* of *light* taps. That's tapping out
the outer bushing, using the interference from the inner bushing.
Mind you, I've always gotten impatient and pulled hard enough that the
inner slips through the outer, then I'm screwed... You may want to
consult with a pro about how it should "feel" when you're extracting
the bushing...

--
Jeff
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