RE: vfr Digest, Vol 30, Issue 55

Gee gang...does anyone here even remember my original post? It was about
Honda's new 800cc MotoGP bike as a possible platform for the next generation
VFR. After a couple of related responses, it has turned into an unrelated,
irrational flame fest (thanks mostly to Chris Burgess). Sorry, Chris; but I
tell it as I see it.

Andy
Andrew Bertsch
'99VFR800FI/Sargent
Cogito Ergo Zoom
Sidney, Ohio
abertsch1@xxxxxx

-----Original Message-----
From: vfr-bounces@xxxxxx [mailto:vfr-bounces@xxxxxx] On Behalf Of
vfr-request@xxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 5:34 PM
To: vfr@xxxxxx
Subject: vfr Digest, Vol 30, Issue 55


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Today's Topics:

1. Re: VFR '08 (Chris Burgess)
2. Selling my 96 (cgroshart@xxxxxx)
3. Our new, ever-present nemesis (Andrew Bertsch)
4. RE: VFR '08 (Brad Berson)
5. Re: VFR '08 (John Alexander)
6. Re: VFR '08 - gear driven cams (Mathew Roth)
7. Re: VFR '08 (Chris Burgess)
8. RE: VFR '08 - gear driven cams (Joe Cargal)
9. Re: VFR '08 (Chris Burgess)
10. Re: VFR '08 (John Alexander)
11. Re: VFR '08 (Chris Burgess)
12. Re: VFR '08 (Matthew Kershaw)
13. RE: VFR '08 (Joe Cargal)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 13:45:04 -0700
From: "Chris Burgess"
Subject: Re: VFR '08
To: "Joe Cargal"
Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Ok then prove that a gear driven cam is more efficent. Please provide hard
links to your internet based sources or ISDN numbers to the books.

Until then cam chains are more efficent.

-Chris
P.S. You must not be an engineer.

On 9/26/06, Joe Cargal wrote:
> Well, due to an inability to provide appropriate sources on the part
> of Mr Burgess, the "flapping" is therefore negligible.
>
> Interesting term, "flapping"...wonder why I've never heard it used in
> serious engineering applications... ;)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: thatman311@xxxxxx [mailto:thatman311@xxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> Chris Burgess
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 4:35 PM
> To: Joe Cargal
> Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
> Subject: Re: VFR '08
>
> I'm having troubles understanding why you can't understand that the
> chain does move some due to tensioning and untensioning of the cam
> when the cam lobe comes smashing into the valve cap.
>
> I never stated that the chain moved alot although if you think
> "flapping" means alot then that's your own perception.
>
> -Chris
>
> _______________________________________________
> vfr mailing list
> vfr@xxxxxx
> For subscription and delivery options:
> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>


--
Check out my racing site...http://www.chrisburgess.com/


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 20:48:18 +0000 (GMT)
From: cgroshart@xxxxxx
Subject: Selling my 96
To: vfr@xxxxxx
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I am getting an '02 for a song from a buddy.
So, my well cared for 1996 VFR is for sale. Adult owned. Second owner. I
bought it in 2002 with 3K on the clock. It has 29,000 miles on it. Well
cared for. Regular oil changes with Synthetic. In 2004 I replaced fork oil,
checked valves, added a Progressive shock, and stainless steel front brake
lines. Front is a half worn Pirelli Diablo Strada, rear shows the wear
bars. . It has been tipped over and has a few small scuffs but looks great.
All tabs are intact, no cracks. KBB trade in value is $2600.
Email me off list. cgroshart_at_comcast.net
The bike is located in the Hartford area of Connecticut.
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 16:53:22 -0400
From: "Andrew Bertsch"
Subject: Our new, ever-present nemesis
To:
Cc: VFR Mailing List
Message-ID: <00c901c6e1ad$cd989ac0$c1b64847@xxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

John ~

Is there anything you can do about this? I receive this "undeliverable"
message after nearly every post.

Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to: cgtaatdrw,bbs.nobles.edu (The
name was not found at the remote site. Check that the name has been entered
correctly.)

Andy
Andrew Bertsch
'99VFR800FI/Sargent
Cogito Ergo Zoom
Sidney, Ohio
abertsch1@xxxxxx

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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 17:07:26 -0400
From: "Brad Berson"
Subject: RE: VFR '08
To:
Message-ID:


>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

It's all relative, sort of like your proverbial lips. Are they moving,
reciprocating, or flapping?

Since most of us are not Professional Engineers(tm), it may be somewhat
unfair of you to expect us all to use the accurate technical terminology
with which you - apparently such a Professional Engineer(tm) or at least
having stayed in a Holiday Inn Express once - would be more familiar. Would
you prefer "oscillation"? How about "harmonic artifacts"? That last one
sounds pretty cool, even though I sort of made it up.

Also, everyone's apparent estimation of these drive chain characteristics
are lacking sufficient data. There are forces from inertia
(rotating/reciprocating - very complex), acceleration and deceleration and
friction and yes, there are harmonic issues too, not to mention the
elasticity of the system (metal elasticity as well as additive tolerances
across dozens of links), I could go on. Add in wear, thermal changes, etc.
Lots of fun.

Do we really need to make a separate forum for VFR -owning members of the
ASME?? Or can we just chill out a bit?

-Brad

-----Original Message-----
From: vfr-bounces@xxxxxx [mailto:vfr-bounces@xxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Joe Cargal
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 4:40 PM
To: vfr@xxxxxx
Subject: RE: VFR '08


Well, due to an inability to provide appropriate sources on the part of Mr
Burgess, the "flapping" is therefore negligible.

Interesting term, "flapping"...wonder why I've never heard it used in
serious engineering applications... ;)

-----Original Message-----
From: thatman311@xxxxxx [mailto:thatman311@xxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris
Burgess
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 4:35 PM
To: Joe Cargal
Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
Subject: Re: VFR '08

I'm having troubles understanding why you can't understand that the chain
does move some due to tensioning and untensioning of the cam when the cam
lobe comes smashing into the valve cap.

I never stated that the chain moved alot although if you think "flapping"
means alot then that's your own perception.

-Chris

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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:10:03 -0700
From: "John Alexander"
Subject: Re: VFR '08
Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On 9/26/06, Chris Burgess wrote:
>
> I'm having troubles understanding why you can't understand that the
> chain does move some due to tensioning and untensioning of the cam
> when the cam lobe comes smashing into the valve cap.
>
> I never stated that the chain moved alot although if you think
> "flapping" means alot then that's your own perception.


Wow Chris, did someone pee in your cornflakes this morning? These guys are
only trading some perceptions, feelings and observations. Or, are you
getting defensive about your 'facts' without providing any backup? Without
backup, they are just more personal feelings. My 2? worth.

JohnA in LA
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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 17:11:16 -0400
From: "Mathew Roth"
Subject: Re: VFR '08 - gear driven cams
To:
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

OOOOHHH, OOOOHHH, can I jump on the pile too???

Whatch out Chris, here it comes!...

Chris wrote:
"I doubt the R212V has gear driven cams. They slow down the rev up and down
process due to their extra recipicating mass."

Why wouldn't it? Honda has used gear driven cams to ensure reliability in
their racebikes in the recent future (RC-51, all the other RC's with
GDC's) probably for more reasons than the extra reciprocating mass.

Just to be argumentative, how much EXTRA mass and what's the difference in
rotational inertia for gears than a chain?I imagine that I could make some
pretty light gears given the right metallurgy and design (lightening).

By the way he Yamaha has gear driven cams (iirc) so they seem to think it's
a good thing...but that's unsupported and un researchsed.

Now I feel very self satisfied...

I think I have no idea why Yamaha or Honda use either chains or gears to
drive their cams...I'd have to ask their engineers and designers--I imagine
they know.
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Message: 7
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:12:09 -0700
From: "Chris Burgess"
Subject: Re: VFR '08
To: "Brad Berson"
Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

No reason to be insulting.

On 9/26/06, Brad Berson wrote:
> It's all relative, sort of like your proverbial lips. Are they
> moving, reciprocating, or flapping?

> -Brad


------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 17:23:27 -0400
From: "Joe Cargal"
Subject: RE: VFR '08 - gear driven cams
To:
Message-ID: <001d01c6e1b2$01eceb10$0202a8c0@xxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Certainly...the more the merrier. I imagine some folks are finding it gets
very aromatic near the bottom.



This isn't totally academic. There is a small focus group (although it also
does have its hecklers) on VFRD discussing this exact topic:



http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/i...howtopic=24290



....happy reading.



Joe

_____

From: vfr-bounces@xxxxxx [mailto:vfr-bounces@xxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Mathew Roth
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 5:11 PM
To: vfr@xxxxxx
Subject: Re: VFR '08 - gear driven cams



OOOOHHH, OOOOHHH, can I jump on the pile too???

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Message: 9
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:25:04 -0700
From: "Chris Burgess"
Subject: Re: VFR '08
To: "John Alexander"
Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Yes Joe Cargal peed on my Wheaties with the attitude he started to cop from
he beginning by talking down to me with statements like "Part of higher
learning is providing external evidence to the facts for reference and
continuation of research. " and "Well, due to an inability to provide
appropriate sources on the part of Mr Burgess, the "flapping" is therefore
negligible."

The reference to me as Mr. Burgess is a derogatory reference and not one
made out of respect.

-Chris

On 9/26/06, John Alexander wrote:
>
>
> On 9/26/06, Chris Burgess wrote:
> > I'm having troubles understanding why you can't understand that the
> > chain does move some due to tensioning and untensioning of the cam
> > when the cam lobe comes smashing into the valve cap.
> >
> > I never stated that the chain moved alot although if you think
> > "flapping" means alot then that's your own perception.
>
> Wow Chris, did someone pee in your cornflakes this morning? These guys
> are only trading some perceptions, feelings and observations. Or, are
> you getting defensive about your 'facts' without providing any backup?
> Without backup, they are just more personal feelings. My 2? worth.
>
> JohnA in LA
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> vfr mailing list
> vfr@xxxxxx
> For subscription and delivery options:
> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>
>


--
Check out my racing site...http://www.chrisburgess.com/



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:28:11 -0700
From: "John Alexander"
Subject: Re: VFR '08
Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On 9/26/06, Chris Burgess wrote:
>
>
> The reference to me as Mr. Burgess is a derogatory reference and not
> one made out of respect.


Someone a lot wiser than I once said that you can only be offended if you
choose to be.

JohnA in LA
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Message: 11
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:31:07 -0700
From: "Chris Burgess"
Subject: Re: VFR '08
To: "John Alexander"
Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I don't always make the best choices but they are mine and I stand behind
them.

On 9/26/06, John Alexander wrote:
>
>
> On 9/26/06, Chris Burgess wrote:
> >
> > The reference to me as Mr. Burgess is a derogatory reference and not
> > one made out of respect.
>
> Someone a lot wiser than I once said that you can only be offended if
> you choose to be.
>
> JohnA in LA
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> vfr mailing list
> vfr@xxxxxx
> For subscription and delivery options:
> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>
>


--
Check out my racing site...http://www.chrisburgess.com/


------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 17:32:49 -0400
From: "Matthew Kershaw"
Subject: Re: VFR '08
To: !vfr
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

This beats an oil threat any day! Where's ChatWithJohnny when we need him?

=P

-m-
1998 Honda VFR800 Interceptor
2000 Honda CBR600 F4
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Message: 13
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 17:33:25 -0400
From: "Joe Cargal"
Subject: RE: VFR '08
To:
Message-ID: <002901c6e1b3$6606b8f0$0202a8c0@xxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

My apologies Chris...after all, The Wall Street Journal refers to the
subjects of its articles by "Mr.". Most of us could do much worse than to
emulate the Journal.

As to the peed on your Wheaties...frankly I'm surprised. All I did was to
ask for a citation of sources for a viewpoint.

I'm sure the missus can provide some therapy for you this evening...enjoy
it.

That's all from me on that...back to our regularly scheduled VFR discussion.

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: vfr-bounces@xxxxxx [mailto:vfr-bounces@xxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Chris Burgess
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 5:25 PM
To: John Alexander
Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
Subject: Re: VFR '08

Yes Joe Cargal peed on my Wheaties with the attitude he started to cop from
he beginning by talking down to me with statements like "Part of higher
learning is providing external evidence to the facts for reference and
continuation of research. " and "Well, due to an inability to provide
appropriate sources on the part of Mr Burgess, the "flapping" is therefore
negligible."

The reference to me as Mr. Burgess is a derogatory reference and not one
made out of respect.

-Chris



------------------------------

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End of vfr Digest, Vol 30, Issue 55
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Won't happen in your wettest of dreams.

On 9/26/06, Andrew Bertsch wrote:
>
>
> Gee gang...does anyone here even remember my original post? It was about
> Honda's new 800cc MotoGP bike as a possible platform for the next generation
> VFR. After a couple of related responses, it has turned into an unrelated,
> irrational flame fest (thanks mostly to Chris Burgess). Sorry, Chris; but I
> tell it as I see it.
>
> Andy
> Andrew Bertsch
> '99VFR800FI/Sargent
> Cogito Ergo Zoom
> Sidney, Ohio
> abertsch1@xxxxxx
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Hmm...what won't happen? Sorry, but your response makes no sense.

-----Original Message-----
From: thatman311@xxxxxx [mailto:thatman311@xxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris
Burgess
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:42 PM
To: Andrew Bertsch
Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
Subject: Re: vfr Digest, Vol 30, Issue 55


Won't happen in your wettest of dreams.

On 9/26/06, Andrew Bertsch wrote:
>
>
> Gee gang...does anyone here even remember my original post? It was
> about Honda's new 800cc MotoGP bike as a possible platform for the
> next generation VFR. After a couple of related responses, it has
> turned into an unrelated, irrational flame fest (thanks mostly to
> Chris Burgess). Sorry, Chris; but I tell it as I see it.
>
> Andy
> Andrew Bertsch
> '99VFR800FI/Sargent
> Cogito Ergo Zoom
> Sidney, Ohio
> abertsch1@xxxxxx

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You getting a real life. :)

On 9/26/06, Andrew Bertsch wrote:
>
>
> Hmm...what won't happen? Sorry, but your response makes no sense.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: thatman311@xxxxxx [mailto:thatman311@xxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris
> Burgess
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:42 PM
> To: Andrew Bertsch
> Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
> Subject: Re: vfr Digest, Vol 30, Issue 55
>
>
> Won't happen in your wettest of dreams.
>
> On 9/26/06, Andrew Bertsch wrote:
> >
> >
> > Gee gang...does anyone here even remember my original post? It was
> > about Honda's new 800cc MotoGP bike as a possible platform for the
> > next generation VFR. After a couple of related responses, it has
> > turned into an unrelated, irrational flame fest (thanks mostly to
> > Chris Burgess). Sorry, Chris; but I tell it as I see it.
> >
> > Andy
> > Andrew Bertsch
> > '99VFR800FI/Sargent
> > Cogito Ergo Zoom
> > Sidney, Ohio
> > abertsch1@xxxxxx
>
> ----------------------------------------
> I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed
> 6326 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their
> emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len
>
>


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Gee...that's quite mature of you. Could we please just discuss those things
that impact us as VFR owners.

-----Original Message-----
From: thatman311@xxxxxx [mailto:thatman311@xxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris
Burgess
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:51 PM
To: Andrew Bertsch
Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
Subject: Re: vfr Digest, Vol 30, Issue 55


You getting a real life. :)

On 9/26/06, Andrew Bertsch wrote:
>
>
> Hmm...what won't happen? Sorry, but your response makes no sense.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: thatman311@xxxxxx [mailto:thatman311@xxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> Chris Burgess
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:42 PM
> To: Andrew Bertsch
> Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
> Subject: Re: vfr Digest, Vol 30, Issue 55
>
>
> Won't happen in your wettest of dreams.
>
> On 9/26/06, Andrew Bertsch wrote:
> >
> >
> > Gee gang...does anyone here even remember my original post? It was
> > about Honda's new 800cc MotoGP bike as a possible platform for the
> > next generation VFR. After a couple of related responses, it has
> > turned into an unrelated, irrational flame fest (thanks mostly to
> > Chris Burgess). Sorry, Chris; but I tell it as I see it.
> >
> > Andy
> > Andrew Bertsch
> > '99VFR800FI/Sargent
> > Cogito Ergo Zoom
> > Sidney, Ohio
> > abertsch1@xxxxxx
>
> ----------------------------------------
> I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has
> removed 6326 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this
> message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here:
> http://www.spamfighter.com/len
>
>


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Since all vfr owners want a real life and they attempt this by buying
a VFR when they should be buying a real sportbike, I think the topic
is relavent.





ok ok...ignore what I just said....its just really easy to stir the
pot on this list.

On 9/26/06, Andrew Bertsch wrote:
>
>
> Gee...that's quite mature of you. Could we please just discuss those things
> that impact us as VFR owners.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: thatman311@xxxxxx [mailto:thatman311@xxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris
> Burgess
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:51 PM
> To: Andrew Bertsch
> Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
> Subject: Re: vfr Digest, Vol 30, Issue 55
>
>
> You getting a real life. :)
>
> On 9/26/06, Andrew Bertsch wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hmm...what won't happen? Sorry, but your response makes no sense.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: thatman311@xxxxxx [mailto:thatman311@xxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> > Chris Burgess
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:42 PM
> > To: Andrew Bertsch
> > Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
> > Subject: Re: vfr Digest, Vol 30, Issue 55
> >
> >
> > Won't happen in your wettest of dreams.
> >
> > On 9/26/06, Andrew Bertsch wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Gee gang...does anyone here even remember my original post? It was
> > > about Honda's new 800cc MotoGP bike as a possible platform for the
> > > next generation VFR. After a couple of related responses, it has
> > > turned into an unrelated, irrational flame fest (thanks mostly to
> > > Chris Burgess). Sorry, Chris; but I tell it as I see it.
> > >
> > > Andy
> > > Andrew Bertsch
> > > '99VFR800FI/Sargent
> > > Cogito Ergo Zoom
> > > Sidney, Ohio
> > > abertsch1@xxxxxx
> >
> > ----------------------------------------
> > I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has
> > removed 6326 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this
> > message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here:
> > http://www.spamfighter.com/len
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Check out my racing site...http://www.chrisburgess.com/
>
> ----------------------------------------
> I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed
> 6326 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their
> emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len
>
>


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