VFR Discontinued/Replacement? CycleWorld story

I just read on livejournal that Cycle World is reporting that the VFR will
be discontinued after the '07 models. (
http://community.livejournal.com/mot...s/1712634.html) I don't have a
copy of the magazine to check it.

Will it be discontinued? Upgraded? V5?
Who's got the skinny here?

tia

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If true, it would be a sad passing.
I can understand though. The VFR is not selling
particularly well these days, so they are going to
discontinue it. But that makes no sense to me w/MotoGP
going to 800cc. Now is the perfect time for them to
re-engineer the thing. Make it more sporty. More
power. Less weight. Drop in the V-5 from the moto-gp
bike maybe.

I don't get it. Honda has the perfect SPORT-touring
bike. I want one (again). But I won't buy until it
drops some weight, loses v-tec, and puts on some
hp/torque. Rather than move the bike in the direction
VFR enthusiasts would like, they are just going to
kill it and cede the niche to Triumph (Sprint ST)?
That's hard to believe.

Maybe they'll just kill it for a year, then bring it
back retuned to kick heinie again. Well...that's my
wishful thinking anyway.
Pat in Monument,CO ('06FJR; had '00 CBR929 & '97 VFR)

--- Caz wrote:
> I just read on live journal that Cycle World is
> reporting that the VFR will be discontinued after
the '07 models.
(http://community.livejournal.com/mot...s/1712634.html)
> I don't have a copy of the magazine to check it.
> Will it be discontinued? Upgraded? V5?
> Who's got the skinny here?
> Caz



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Honda has missed the mark . It must have some short sighted engineering
staff. When they went to VFR Vtec, it was not in my opinion what people
wanted...with more complexity. They still haven't got it figured out or
don't want to admit their assumption was badly hatched. . I am kicking my
own butt for not trying a VFR sooner. It is that thrilling a ride. Honda
promised to create hardware everyone would want to have when their
leadership initially waned. That is still an empty hope. Look at the
brilliant motor Triumph released with the 675! Honda is sitting on its
laurels that have faded. The VFR is one of its great machines. Killing it
will be their own nose dive for many VFR fans. Hopefully someone will get to
them before they take a back seat to the other motorcycle builders.
Tman
----- Original Message -----
From: "MP Coleman"
To: "VFR LIST"
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: VFR Discontinued/Replacement? CycleWorld story


> If true, it would be a sad passing.
> I can understand though. The VFR is not selling
> particularly well these days, so they are going to
> discontinue it. But that makes no sense to me w/MotoGP
> going to 800cc. Now is the perfect time for them to
> re-engineer the thing. Make it more sporty. More
> power. Less weight. Drop in the V-5 from the moto-gp
> bike maybe.
>
> I don't get it. Honda has the perfect SPORT-touring
> bike. I want one (again). But I won't buy until it
> drops some weight, loses v-tec, and puts on some
> hp/torque. Rather than move the bike in the direction
> VFR enthusiasts would like, they are just going to
> kill it and cede the niche to Triumph (Sprint ST)?
> That's hard to believe.
>
> Maybe they'll just kill it for a year, then bring it
> back retuned to kick heinie again. Well...that's my
> wishful thinking anyway.
> Pat in Monument,CO ('06FJR; had '00 CBR929 & '97 VFR)
>
> --- Caz wrote:
>> I just read on live journal that Cycle World is
>> reporting that the VFR will be discontinued after
> the '07 models.
> (http://community.livejournal.com/mot...s/1712634.html)
>> I don't have a copy of the magazine to check it.
>> Will it be discontinued? Upgraded? V5?
>> Who's got the skinny here?
>> Caz
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Sponsored Link
>
> Mortgage rates near 39yr lows.
> $420k for $1,399/mo. Calculate new payment!
> www.LowerMyBills.com/lre
> _______________________________________________
> vfr mailing list
> vfr@xxxxxx
> For subscription and delivery options:
> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.7/538 - Release Date: 11/18/2006
>
>

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Although I prefer the 5th generation VFR to the 6th I don't think Honda's
intent was to make the bike more "complex". I think they were trying to
make a VFR that the consumer would buy. I think that is the underlying
reason for the model being discontinued. It all boils down to SALES! From
a market share standpoint I can't sat that I blame them.

Denny

-----Original Message-----
From: vfr-bounces@xxxxxx [mailto:vfr-bounces@xxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Ed Ostack
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 10:15 AM
To: vfr@xxxxxx
Subject: Re: VFR Discontinued/Replacement? CycleWorld story

Honda has missed the mark . It must have some short sighted engineering
staff. When they went to VFR Vtec, it was not in my opinion what people
wanted...with more complexity. They still haven't got it figured out or
don't want to admit their assumption was badly hatched. . I am kicking my
own butt for not trying a VFR sooner. It is that thrilling a ride. Honda
promised to create hardware everyone would want to have when their
leadership initially waned. That is still an empty hope. Look at the
brilliant motor Triumph released with the 675! Honda is sitting on its
laurels that have faded. The VFR is one of its great machines. Killing it
will be their own nose dive for many VFR fans. Hopefully someone will get to

them before they take a back seat to the other motorcycle builders.
Tman
----- Original Message -----
From: "MP Coleman"
To: "VFR LIST"
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: VFR Discontinued/Replacement? CycleWorld story


> If true, it would be a sad passing.
> I can understand though. The VFR is not selling
> particularly well these days, so they are going to
> discontinue it. But that makes no sense to me w/MotoGP
> going to 800cc. Now is the perfect time for them to
> re-engineer the thing. Make it more sporty. More
> power. Less weight. Drop in the V-5 from the moto-gp
> bike maybe.
>
> I don't get it. Honda has the perfect SPORT-touring
> bike. I want one (again). But I won't buy until it
> drops some weight, loses v-tec, and puts on some
> hp/torque. Rather than move the bike in the direction
> VFR enthusiasts would like, they are just going to
> kill it and cede the niche to Triumph (Sprint ST)?
> That's hard to believe.
>
> Maybe they'll just kill it for a year, then bring it
> back retuned to kick heinie again. Well...that's my
> wishful thinking anyway.
> Pat in Monument,CO ('06FJR; had '00 CBR929 & '97 VFR)
>
> --- Caz wrote:
>> I just read on live journal that Cycle World is
>> reporting that the VFR will be discontinued after
> the '07 models.
> (http://community.livejournal.com/mot...s/1712634.html)
>> I don't have a copy of the magazine to check it.
>> Will it be discontinued? Upgraded? V5?
>> Who's got the skinny here?
>> Caz
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> Sponsored Link
>
> Mortgage rates near 39yr lows.
> $420k for $1,399/mo. Calculate new payment!
> www.LowerMyBills.com/lre
> _______________________________________________
> vfr mailing list
> vfr@xxxxxx
> For subscription and delivery options:
> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.7/538 - Release Date: 11/18/2006
>
>

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IMHO...Honda is missing the mark and has been for some time. There's been a shit-load of bitching about the 6th generation VFR's so I won't re-live that arguement.

As many Listers know; after yearning for more bike than my Y2K VFR - I went to another manufacturer.

I returned to Honda with the RC-51, which there has been rumors of discontinuing for years (since WSB changed rules). It appears as if the '06 will be the last of that breed as well. Shame - since Honda had not made any material changes in the RC since the '02 model year. Ducati & Aprilia are selling a lotta bikes. Why not put some money into the RC and make it more competitive. The RC could go up $5-8k in price and still be priced under the market. But they can't raise the price if they are not gonna compete with features and gadgetry.

Bottom line folks, Hoda doesn't love us like we love them. It's a big world out there. Time to see who's gonna give us what we want.

RIP - VFR & RC51. You changed many of our lives in countless ways. But all good things come to an end.

Lou
SF, CA

then: 750 Kawi Spectre, Kawi ZX-11, Honda VFR 800, Kawi ZX-9
now: Ducati 750 Monster, Honda RC-51 (track)
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I seem to recall an australian firm grafting two FZR400 motors together to
make a 750 V8 a few years ago.
Quite the screamer,

On 11/19/06, Brian Light wrote:
>
> Forget a V5!! Cut 'n paste this link into your
> browser...this would be a really fun engine in the
> next VFR:
>
> http://thekneeslider.com/archives/20...usa-v8-engine/
>
> Umm, even if it is a Suzuki! Geez, even a V6 or V4
> version would still be a handful. Bet it sounds cool
> at 10000 rpm.
>
> Now, maybe two CBR600's grafted together into a 1200cc
> V8 making 240 hp at 14,000 rpm...that's what I'm
> talking about!
>
> Cheers,
> BKL
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Sponsored Link
>
> Mortgage rates near 39yr lows.
> $510k for $1,698/mo. Calculate new payment!
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If you want to dream, put the three rotar 232HP Mazda RX8 engine into a bike. Not too good on fuel, but the torque curve is impressive. And it would fit between your knees much easier.

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At 11:10 AM 11/19/2006, Denny Fair wrote:

>Although I prefer the 5th generation VFR to the 6th I don't think Honda's
>intent was to make the bike more "complex". I think they were trying to
>make a VFR that the consumer would buy. I think that is the underlying
>reason for the model being discontinued. It all boils down to SALES! From
>a market share standpoint I can't sat that I blame them.
>
>Denny

Well some of what you wrote is no doubt correct, Honda did not design
the 6th gen just to be more complex. They designed it with the VTEC
and the other additions because they 'somehow' thought that VFR
buyers were either too stupid or too complacent to want a new 1000.
The thinking instead it was give us a few more features, some bling,
new plastics and some techno-features and we would all rush to buy
what is otherwise the rehash of the 5th gen.
Now that the tidal wave of sales has not occured, they have to
choices admit that they misread the desires of the ST buying range or
cancel the bike too sweep their mistake under the rug.

It seems a shame that they must end a legacy, rather than admit that
they are human and produce what it is that VFR people would want.

It looks like the Sprint ST will be my new bike.

JohnS
A Dragon Ascending
"Forging my body in the Fires of my Will"

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God you guys are so wrong. Years ago I showed why the VTEC exists.
Noise. Japan and other places have strick noise regulations and the
VTEC and dual mufflers helps this happen.

-Chris

On 11/19/06, JES_VFR wrote:
> At 11:10 AM 11/19/2006, Denny Fair wrote:
>
> >Although I prefer the 5th generation VFR to the 6th I don't think Honda's
> >intent was to make the bike more "complex". I think they were trying to
> >make a VFR that the consumer would buy. I think that is the underlying
> >reason for the model being discontinued. It all boils down to SALES! From
> >a market share standpoint I can't sat that I blame them.
> >
> >Denny
>
> Well some of what you wrote is no doubt correct, Honda did not design
> the 6th gen just to be more complex. They designed it with the VTEC
> and the other additions because they 'somehow' thought that VFR
> buyers were either too stupid or too complacent to want a new 1000.
> The thinking instead it was give us a few more features, some bling,
> new plastics and some techno-features and we would all rush to buy
> what is otherwise the rehash of the 5th gen.
> Now that the tidal wave of sales has not occured, they have to
> choices admit that they misread the desires of the ST buying range or
> cancel the bike too sweep their mistake under the rug.
>
> It seems a shame that they must end a legacy, rather than admit that
> they are human and produce what it is that VFR people would want.
>
> It looks like the Sprint ST will be my new bike.
>
> JohnS
> A Dragon Ascending
> "Forging my body in the Fires of my Will"
>
> _______________________________________________
> vfr mailing list
> vfr@xxxxxx
> For subscription and delivery options:
> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>


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How could VTEC reduce noise??


-----Original Message-----
From: vfr-bounces@xxxxxx [mailto:vfr-bounces@xxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Chris Burgess
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 10:38 PM
To: JES_VFR
Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
Subject: Re: VFR Discontinued/Replacement? CycleWorld story


God you guys are so wrong. Years ago I showed why the VTEC exists.
Noise. Japan and other places have strick noise regulations and the
VTEC and dual mufflers helps this happen.

-Chris

On 11/19/06, JES_VFR wrote:
> At 11:10 AM 11/19/2006, Denny Fair wrote:
>
> >Although I prefer the 5th generation VFR to the 6th I don't think
Honda's
> >intent was to make the bike more "complex". I think they were trying
to
> >make a VFR that the consumer would buy. I think that is the
underlying
> >reason for the model being discontinued. It all boils down to SALES!
From
> >a market share standpoint I can't sat that I blame them.
> >
> >Denny
>
> Well some of what you wrote is no doubt correct, Honda did not design
> the 6th gen just to be more complex. They designed it with the VTEC
> and the other additions because they 'somehow' thought that VFR
> buyers were either too stupid or too complacent to want a new 1000.
> The thinking instead it was give us a few more features, some bling,
> new plastics and some techno-features and we would all rush to buy
> what is otherwise the rehash of the 5th gen.
> Now that the tidal wave of sales has not occured, they have to
> choices admit that they misread the desires of the ST buying range or
> cancel the bike too sweep their mistake under the rug.
>
> It seems a shame that they must end a legacy, rather than admit that
> they are human and produce what it is that VFR people would want.
>
> It looks like the Sprint ST will be my new bike.
>
> JohnS
> A Dragon Ascending
> "Forging my body in the Fires of my Will"
>
> _______________________________________________
> vfr mailing list
> vfr@xxxxxx
> For subscription and delivery options:
> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>


--
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http://blog.burgiracing.com
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When running on 2 valves the exhaust note is not nearly as loud nor as deep.

The switch to a cam chain made that part of the engine quiter.

The dual mufflers provide more capacity for more muffling.

Per this website Japan does not have a capacity limitation on
motorcycles when you have the proper license.

http://www.alientimes.org/Main/MotorcycleLicenses

I think it was 2 years ago I posted the PDF that explained the purpose
behind the VTEC.

Here is a link (not the same one I posted) the specifically mentions
the quietness of the new VTEC system on the VFR.

http://world.honda.com/environment/2...i_01_2r03.html


One more thing. I haven't seen two dyno charts side by side from the
01 to the 02 VFR's but I'll go with the understanding their power
curves look almost the same. This has been harped on time and time
again.

What is forgotten is the potentional for the VTEC VFR's power delivery
in 2 valve mode to come on quicker due to the 2 valve torque advange.

So don't knock it until you lived with it for some time. Until then
the banter is annoying to me.

-Chris

On 11/19/06, Brad Berson wrote:
> How could VTEC reduce noise??
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vfr-bounces@xxxxxx [mailto:vfr-bounces@xxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of Chris Burgess
> Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 10:38 PM
> To: JES_VFR
> Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
> Subject: Re: VFR Discontinued/Replacement? CycleWorld story
>
>
> God you guys are so wrong. Years ago I showed why the VTEC exists.
> Noise. Japan and other places have strick noise regulations and the
> VTEC and dual mufflers helps this happen.
>
> -Chris
>
> On 11/19/06, JES_VFR wrote:
> > At 11:10 AM 11/19/2006, Denny Fair wrote:
> >
> > >Although I prefer the 5th generation VFR to the 6th I don't think
> Honda's
> > >intent was to make the bike more "complex". I think they were trying
> to
> > >make a VFR that the consumer would buy. I think that is the
> underlying
> > >reason for the model being discontinued. It all boils down to SALES!
> From
> > >a market share standpoint I can't sat that I blame them.
> > >
> > >Denny
> >
> > Well some of what you wrote is no doubt correct, Honda did not design
> > the 6th gen just to be more complex. They designed it with the VTEC
> > and the other additions because they 'somehow' thought that VFR
> > buyers were either too stupid or too complacent to want a new 1000.
> > The thinking instead it was give us a few more features, some bling,
> > new plastics and some techno-features and we would all rush to buy
> > what is otherwise the rehash of the 5th gen.
> > Now that the tidal wave of sales has not occured, they have to
> > choices admit that they misread the desires of the ST buying range or
> > cancel the bike too sweep their mistake under the rug.
> >
> > It seems a shame that they must end a legacy, rather than admit that
> > they are human and produce what it is that VFR people would want.
> >
> > It looks like the Sprint ST will be my new bike.
> >
> > JohnS
> > A Dragon Ascending
> > "Forging my body in the Fires of my Will"
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > vfr mailing list
> > vfr@xxxxxx
> > For subscription and delivery options:
> > https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
> >
>
>
> --
> Check out my racing site...http://www.burgiracing.com and my blog at
> http://blog.burgiracing.com
> _______________________________________________
> vfr mailing list
> vfr@xxxxxx
> For subscription and delivery options:
> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>
> _______________________________________________
> vfr mailing list
> vfr@xxxxxx
> For subscription and delivery options:
> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>


--
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http://blog.burgiracing.com
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I find these two statements amusing:

"...with a valve control system, only two of the four valves in each
cylinder are opened and closed at low rpm. This lowers the sound
pressure level inside the combustion chamber."

Uh, yeah, so does easing up on the throttle!

"A silent chain drive is adopted for the camshaft."

That's quite amazing - a drive chain that makes absolutely no sound at
all? I think the ASME have vastly underestimated Japan's engineering
prowess.



-----Original Message-----
From: thatman311@xxxxxx [mailto:thatman311@xxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Chris Burgess
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 2:57 AM
To: Brad Berson
Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
Subject: Re: VFR Discontinued/Replacement? CycleWorld story


When running on 2 valves the exhaust note is not nearly as loud nor as
deep.

The switch to a cam chain made that part of the engine quiter.

The dual mufflers provide more capacity for more muffling.

Per this website Japan does not have a capacity limitation on
motorcycles when you have the proper license.

http://www.alientimes.org/Main/MotorcycleLicenses

I think it was 2 years ago I posted the PDF that explained the purpose
behind the VTEC.

Here is a link (not the same one I posted) the specifically mentions
the quietness of the new VTEC system on the VFR.

http://world.honda.com/environment/2...i_01_2r03.html


One more thing. I haven't seen two dyno charts side by side from the
01 to the 02 VFR's but I'll go with the understanding their power
curves look almost the same. This has been harped on time and time
again.

What is forgotten is the potentional for the VTEC VFR's power delivery
in 2 valve mode to come on quicker due to the 2 valve torque advange.

So don't knock it until you lived with it for some time. Until then
the banter is annoying to me.

-Chris

On 11/19/06, Brad Berson wrote:
> How could VTEC reduce noise??
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vfr-bounces@xxxxxx [mailto:vfr-bounces@xxxxxx] On
Behalf
> Of Chris Burgess
> Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 10:38 PM
> To: JES_VFR
> Cc: vfr@xxxxxx
> Subject: Re: VFR Discontinued/Replacement? CycleWorld story
>
>
> God you guys are so wrong. Years ago I showed why the VTEC exists.
> Noise. Japan and other places have strick noise regulations and the
> VTEC and dual mufflers helps this happen.
>
> -Chris
>
> On 11/19/06, JES_VFR wrote:
> > At 11:10 AM 11/19/2006, Denny Fair wrote:
> >
> > >Although I prefer the 5th generation VFR to the 6th I don't think
> Honda's
> > >intent was to make the bike more "complex". I think they were
trying
> to
> > >make a VFR that the consumer would buy. I think that is the
> underlying
> > >reason for the model being discontinued. It all boils down to
SALES!
> From
> > >a market share standpoint I can't sat that I blame them.
> > >
> > >Denny
> >
> > Well some of what you wrote is no doubt correct, Honda did not
design
> > the 6th gen just to be more complex. They designed it with the VTEC
> > and the other additions because they 'somehow' thought that VFR
> > buyers were either too stupid or too complacent to want a new 1000.
> > The thinking instead it was give us a few more features, some
bling,
> > new plastics and some techno-features and we would all rush to buy
> > what is otherwise the rehash of the 5th gen.
> > Now that the tidal wave of sales has not occured, they have to
> > choices admit that they misread the desires of the ST buying range
or
> > cancel the bike too sweep their mistake under the rug.
> >
> > It seems a shame that they must end a legacy, rather than admit that
> > they are human and produce what it is that VFR people would want.
> >
> > It looks like the Sprint ST will be my new bike.
> >
> > JohnS
> > A Dragon Ascending
> > "Forging my body in the Fires of my Will"
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > vfr mailing list
> > vfr@xxxxxx
> > For subscription and delivery options:
> > https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
> >
>
>
> --
> Check out my racing site...http://www.burgiracing.com and my blog at
> http://blog.burgiracing.com
> _______________________________________________
> vfr mailing list
> vfr@xxxxxx
> For subscription and delivery options:
> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>
> _______________________________________________
> vfr mailing list
> vfr@xxxxxx
> For subscription and delivery options:
> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>


--
Check out my racing site...http://www.burgiracing.com and my blog at
http://blog.burgiracing.com

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A "silent chain" is a type of chain. See
http://mechanical-components.globals...al_Components/
Chains_Sprockets/Silent_Chain for explanation.

doug

-----Original Message-----
From: vfr-bounces@xxxxxx [mailto:vfr-bounces@xxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Brad Berson
Sent: November 20, 2006 10:34 AM
To: vfr@xxxxxx
Subject: RE: VFR Discontinued/Replacement? CycleWorld story

I find these two statements amusing:

"...with a valve control system, only two of the four valves in each
cylinder are opened and closed at low rpm. This lowers the sound
pressure level inside the combustion chamber."

Uh, yeah, so does easing up on the throttle!

"A silent chain drive is adopted for the camshaft."

That's quite amazing - a drive chain that makes absolutely no sound at
all? I think the ASME have vastly underestimated Japan's engineering
prowess.




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On 11/19/06, Chris Burgess wrote:
>
>
> So don't knock it until you lived with it for some time. Until then
> the banter is annoying to me.


LOL, Chris, did it take THIS long for the banter to annoy you?

JohnA in LA

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Sorta. In the past it was annoying but not enough for me to fly off
the handle as even though I post the reasons for the VTEC people don't
see to pay attention.

-Chris

On 11/20/06, John Alexander wrote:
>
>
> On 11/19/06, Chris Burgess wrote:
> >
> > So don't knock it until you lived with it for some time. Until then
> > the banter is annoying to me.
>
> LOL, Chris, did it take THIS long for the banter to annoy you?
>
> JohnA in LA
>
>
>


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Um i didn't get Brad's original response.

Laying off the throttle isn't something that Honda can plan on and if
you do that then you don't have as much power as you would if you
didn't have to lay off the throttle.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: vfr-bounces@xxxxxx [mailto:vfr-bounces@xxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> Brad Berson
> Sent: November 20, 2006 10:34 AM
> To: vfr@xxxxxx
> Subject: RE: VFR Discontinued/Replacement? CycleWorld story
>
> I find these two statements amusing:
>
> "...with a valve control system, only two of the four valves in each
> cylinder are opened and closed at low rpm. This lowers the sound
> pressure level inside the combustion chamber."
>
> Uh, yeah, so does easing up on the throttle!
>
> "A silent chain drive is adopted for the camshaft."
>
> That's quite amazing - a drive chain that makes absolutely no sound at
> all? I think the ASME have vastly underestimated Japan's engineering
> prowess.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> vfr mailing list
> vfr@xxxxxx
> For subscription and delivery options:
> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>


--
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http://blog.burgiracing.com
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Just remind yourself that a word to the wise is sufficient ... and don't
sweat the rest ;)

Carl
(duckin' for cover :)

-----Original Message-----

Sorta. In the past it was annoying but not enough for me to fly off
the handle as even though I post the reasons for the VTEC people don't
see to pay attention.

-Chris
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