Re: Help needed / Wires, Connectors and Grounds...

Hey Vic ~

I've been following your charging/battery adventure, and have a few
questions and observations.

1) What care did your Yuasa receive during its 2+ year life?...maintenance
habits (Battery Tender or other), number of miles (mostly short or long
rides?), extra equipment drain, etc. The OEM Yuasa on my '99 was still
going strong after more than 5 years (always on a Battery Tender when not
riding). I replaced it with a WestCo AGM in November 2004 just to be safe,
then replaced a failed R/R in January 2005. The WestCo (also constantly B-T
maintained) is still charging perfectly after 2.5 years.

2) IIRC, your VFR is a 5th generation ('98 or '99 as I recall). If so, I
think your reported charging rates are suspect, as they differ significantly
from mine. At idle, I generally see 14-14.2 volts; and at speed 13.6-13.8.
Only when the bike sits idle without the B-T for awhile does the voltage
ever drop below 13 (and then only to 12.8 or 12.9).

3) I'm now 59 years of age, have owned and ridden motorcycles since I was
16, and I've never had a battery last less than 4 years (even when I was
younger and lax on maintenance). I'm not opposed to the idea of spending
$60 or so every two years, but my 40+ years of experience suggests that it's
just not necessary.

Are you sure there isn't still something awry with your Viffer's charging
system?

"Just another update for all of you who jumped in and tried to help me when
the electrical demons threatened my trip. I now have two days of running
behind me since I put in the battery and everything is still rock solid.
Most of the time it is charging between 13.1 & 13.3 but occasionally drops
down to 12.9. I have seen 12.8 only once and nothing below that.

While my Yuasa was only 2 years old and both seemed and tested perfect, it
was not and was the source of all the charging system problems I was having.
Several years ago the head of technical training for Honda MC told a mutual
friend to tell me that I should put in a new Yuasa battery every two years.
He said bad batteries are the main cause of problems with VFR electrical
systems. I guess I should have followed his direction to the letter but
didn't. I was only a few month over 2 years and figured he was exaggerating
the point. I think I will follow his recommendation to the T going
forward..."

Andy

Andrew Bertsch
'99VFR800FI/Sargent
Cogito Ergo Zoom
Sidney, Ohio
abertsch1@xxxxxx


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On 5/29/07, Andrew Bertsch wrote:
>
> Hey Vic ~
>
> I've been following your charging/battery adventure, and have a
> few questions and observations.
>
>
> 2) IIRC, your VFR is a 5th generation ('98 or '99 as I recall). If so, I
> think your reported charging rates are suspect, as they differ significantly
> from mine. At idle, I generally see 14-14.2 volts; and at speed 13.6-13.8.
> Only when the bike sits idle without the B-T for awhile does the voltage
> ever drop below 13 (and then only to 12.8 or 12.9).
>
> Andy
>


I think there is a fair amount of variation between the small onboard meters
we all use. What's important is to know what's "normal" for your bike/meter
combo -- and take investigative measures if/when something changes.


Cheers,

Nate

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When I get back to Atlanta, after this trip, I will go through a thorough diagnostic process... stator, diodes, etc. Right now it is working just fine and I am very thankful for that. Thanks to all for the help!

I am now in Las Cruces, NM and headed to Phoenix tomorrow and then on to San Diego on 6/1.

Cheers,
Vic

"Nate in N.E." wrote:


On 5/29/07, Andrew Bertsch wrote: Hey Vic ~

I've been following your charging/battery adventure, and have a few questions and observations.


2) IIRC, your VFR is a 5th generation ('98 or '99 as I recall). If so, I think your reported charging rates are suspect, as they differ significantly from mine. At idle, I generally see 14-14.2 volts; and at speed 13.6-13.8. Only when the bike sits idle without the B-T for awhile does the voltage ever drop below 13 (and then only to 12.8 or 12.9).


Andy




I think there is a fair amount of variation between the small onboard meters we all use. What's important is to know what's "normal" for your bike/meter combo -- and take investigative measures if/when something changes.


Cheers,

Nate







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Andrew, I just don't have time to answer all of your questions at this point. Sorry. It is 10:30pm and I have to be on the road at 7am tomorrow. I have ridden off and on since I was 11 and I am now 61 and this is the first time I have had anything like this happen. Could have simply been a defective battery. I'm just glad to be rolling now. Thanks for your thoughts on all of this.

Vic

Andrew Bertsch wrote:
Hey Vic ~

I've been following your charging/battery adventure, and have a few questions and observations.

1) What care did your Yuasa receive during its 2+ year life?...maintenance habits (Battery Tender or other), number of miles (mostly short or long rides?), extra equipment drain, etc. The OEM Yuasa on my '99 was still going strong after more than 5 years (always on a Battery Tender when not riding). I replaced it with a WestCo AGM in November 2004 just to be safe, then replaced a failed R/R in January 2005. The WestCo (also constantly B-T maintained) is still charging perfectly after 2.5 years.

2) IIRC, your VFR is a 5th generation ('98 or '99 as I recall). If so, I think your reported charging rates are suspect, as they differ significantly from mine. At idle, I generally see 14-14.2 volts; and at speed 13.6-13.8. Only when the bike sits idle without the B-T for awhile does the voltage ever drop below 13 (and then only to 12.8 or 12.9).

3) I'm now 59 years of age, have owned and ridden motorcycles since I was 16, and I've never had a battery last less than 4 years (even when I was younger and lax on maintenance). I'm not opposed to the idea of spending $60 or so every two years, but my 40+ years of experience suggests that it's just not necessary.

Are you sure there isn't still something awry with your Viffer's charging system?

"Just another update for all of you who jumped in and tried to help me when the electrical demons threatened my trip. I now have two days of running behind me since I put in the battery and everything is still rock solid. Most of the time it is charging between 13.1 & 13.3 but occasionally drops down to 12.9. I have seen 12.8 only once and nothing below that.

While my Yuasa was only 2 years old and both seemed and tested perfect, it was not and was the source of all the charging system problems I was having. Several years ago the head of technical training for Honda MC told a mutual friend to tell me that I should put in a new Yuasa battery every two years. He said bad batteries are the main cause of problems with VFR electrical systems. I guess I should have followed his direction to the letter but didn't. I was only a few month over 2 years and figured he was exaggerating the point. I think I will follow his recommendation to the T going forward..."
Andy

Andrew Bertsch
'99VFR800FI/Sargent
Cogito Ergo Zoom
Sidney, Ohio
abertsch1@xxxxxx




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Vic ~

Sorry to bring this up again, but I think it's important to share with the
List. Now that you're back home, could you please answer my questions for
the benefit of charging system-concerned members of the List?

Many thanks,
Andy
Andrew Bertsch
'99VFR800FI/Sargent
Cogito Ergo Zoom
Sidney, Ohio
abertsch1@xxxxxx

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Bertsch [mailto:abertsch1@xxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 4:42 PM
To: 'vic5491@xxxxxx'
Cc: VFR Mailing List (vfr@xxxxxx)
Subject: Re: Help needed / Wires, Connectors and Grounds...


Hey Vic ~

I've been following your charging/battery adventure, and have a few
questions and observations.

1) What care did your Yuasa receive during its 2+ year life?...maintenance
habits (Battery Tender or other), number of miles (mostly short or long
rides?), extra equipment drain, etc. The OEM Yuasa on my '99 was still
going strong after more than 5 years (always on a Battery Tender when not
riding). I replaced it with a WestCo AGM in November 2004 just to be safe,
then replaced a failed R/R in January 2005. The WestCo (also constantly B-T
maintained) is still charging perfectly after 2.5 years.

2) IIRC, your VFR is a 5th generation ('98 or '99 as I recall). If so, I
think your reported charging rates are suspect, as they differ significantly
from mine. At idle, I generally see 14-14.2 volts; and at speed 13.6-13.8.
Only when the bike sits idle without the B-T for awhile does the voltage
ever drop below 13 (and then only to 12.8 or 12.9).

3) I'm now 59 years of age, have owned and ridden motorcycles since I was
16, and I've never had a battery last less than 4 years (even when I was
younger and lax on maintenance). I'm not opposed to the idea of spending
$60 or so every two years, but my 40+ years of experience suggests that it's
just not necessary.

Are you sure there isn't still something awry with your Viffer's charging
system?

"Just another update for all of you who jumped in and tried to help me when
the electrical demons threatened my trip. I now have two days of running
behind me since I put in the battery and everything is still rock solid.
Most of the time it is charging between 13.1 & 13.3 but occasionally drops
down to 12.9. I have seen 12.8 only once and nothing below that.

While my Yuasa was only 2 years old and both seemed and tested perfect, it
was not and was the source of all the charging system problems I was having.
Several years ago the head of technical training for Honda MC told a mutual
friend to tell me that I should put in a new Yuasa battery every two years.
He said bad batteries are the main cause of problems with VFR electrical
systems. I guess I should have followed his direction to the letter but
didn't. I was only a few month over 2 years and figured he was exaggerating
the point. I think I will follow his recommendation to the T going
forward..."

Andy

Andrew Bertsch
'99VFR800FI/Sargent
Cogito Ergo Zoom
Sidney, Ohio
abertsch1@xxxxxx


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Andrew, as I mentioned before, the person who is in charge of technical training for Honda MC said that failed batteries are the most frequent cause of electrical problems and RR failures on VFRs. He recommended putting in a new Yuasa battery every two years even if everything seems fine. I ignored this and went almost 3 years and suffered the consequences. Whatever the cause of the battery failure, the battery failure created a situation that "appeared" to be a RR or stator failure and had it not been for one lister's sage advice, my trip would have been compromised. He said that he had had a similar situation and a new battery solved his problems. In spite of the fact that my battery tested "good" I replaced the battery and my problems went away. I have never had battery failures like this before either. The bike's first battery was changed out preventatively 3 years ago and yet the second battery failed in less than three years. I suspect something was loose in
the battery since the problem was intermittant. I do not see this as an issue of whether the battery was kept on a battery tender or not (I have one and use it sometimes but not always). I typically ride 50 - 250 miles whenever I take the bike out but sometimes I take a shorter and much longer rides.

As one lister mentioned, our VMs are not highly precise instruments and the differences you mention in your point #2 may well have more to do with the instrument than anything else. I intend to check my voltages with a more precise instrument when I get a chance but, as you can imagine, after having been gone for over a month, other more pressing issues are demanding my attention now.

One of the other local listers has a Master's Degree in EE from a very well respected engineering school and he has offered to help me go through the whole system at some point. Once we do, a write up will be forthcoming. I suspect that will be in the late fall or early next year. My bike has performed flawlessly since I put the new Wal-Mart battery in it and I think the whole problem I experienced can be traced to a failing battery.

Regards,
Vic
Andrew Bertsch wrote:
Vic ~

Sorry to bring this up again, but I think it's important to share with the List. Now that you're back home, could you please answer my questions for the benefit of charging system-concerned members of the List?

Many thanks,
Andy
Andrew Bertsch
'99VFR800FI/Sargent
Cogito Ergo Zoom
Sidney, Ohio
abertsch1@xxxxxx



-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Bertsch [mailto:abertsch1@xxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 4:42 PM
To: 'vic5491@xxxxxx'
Cc: VFR Mailing List (vfr@xxxxxx)
Subject: Re: Help needed / Wires, Connectors and Grounds...


Hey Vic ~

I've been following your charging/battery adventure, and have a few questions and observations.

1) What care did your Yuasa receive during its 2+ year life?...maintenance habits (Battery Tender or other), number of miles (mostly short or long rides?), extra equipment drain, etc. The OEM Yuasa on my '99 was still going strong after more than 5 years (always on a Battery Tender when not riding). I replaced it with a WestCo AGM in November 2004 just to be safe, then replaced a failed R/R in January 2005. The WestCo (also constantly B-T maintained) is still charging perfectly after 2.5 years.

2) IIRC, your VFR is a 5th generation ('98 or '99 as I recall). If so, I think your reported charging rates are suspect, as they differ significantly from mine. At idle, I generally see 14-14.2 volts; and at speed 13.6-13.8. Only when the bike sits idle without the B-T for awhile does the voltage ever drop below 13 (and then only to 12.8 or 12.9).

3) I'm now 59 years of age, have owned and ridden motorcycles since I was 16, and I've never had a battery last less than 4 years (even when I was younger and lax on maintenance). I'm not opposed to the idea of spending $60 or so every two years, but my 40+ years of experience suggests that it's just not necessary.

Are you sure there isn't still something awry with your Viffer's charging system?

"Just another update for all of you who jumped in and tried to help me when the electrical demons threatened my trip. I now have two days of running behind me since I put in the battery and everything is still rock solid. Most of the time it is charging between 13.1 & 13.3 but occasionally drops down to 12.9. I have seen 12.8 only once and nothing below that.

While my Yuasa was only 2 years old and both seemed and tested perfect, it was not and was the source of all the charging system problems I was having. Several years ago the head of technical training for Honda MC told a mutual friend to tell me that I should put in a new Yuasa battery every two years. He said bad batteries are the main cause of problems with VFR electrical systems. I guess I should have followed his direction to the letter but didn't. I was only a few month over 2 years and figured he was exaggerating the point. I think I will follow his recommendation to the T going forward..."
Andy

Andrew Bertsch
'99VFR800FI/Sargent
Cogito Ergo Zoom
Sidney, Ohio
abertsch1@xxxxxx




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Dear Andrew, I have a 99 VFR with chronicly intermittent low battery charging
inspite of replacement battery. At idle it charges at 12.8 and @ 5000 revs
as high as 13.8 however if one backs off the revs it often drops below 12
and will not reestablish a higher charge rate in spite of rev increase. If I
turn it off and restart all is OK and then the charging gremlin re-emerges
again for some reason not allowing a higher charging voltage than
11.86-which suggests no charging is happening at all ( I have kept the
rectifyer cool with computer fan blowing accross the fins while running as
suggested by the british who were having rectifyer failures due to
overheating) any ideas of where to go at this point? thanks Rogerbc

Andrew Bertsch wrote:
>
> Vic ~
>
> Sorry to bring this up again, but I think it's important to share with the
> List. Now that you're back home, could you please answer my questions for
> the benefit of charging system-concerned members of the List?
>
> Many thanks,
> Andy
> Andrew Bertsch
> '99VFR800FI/Sargent
> Cogito Ergo Zoom
> Sidney, Ohio
> abertsch1@xxxxxx
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Bertsch [mailto:abertsch1@xxxxxx]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 4:42 PM
> To: 'vic5491@xxxxxx'
> Cc: VFR Mailing List (vfr@xxxxxx)
> Subject: Re: Help needed / Wires, Connectors and Grounds...
>
>
> Hey Vic ~
>
> I've been following your charging/battery adventure, and have a few
> questions and observations.
>
> 1) What care did your Yuasa receive during its 2+ year life?...maintenance
> habits (Battery Tender or other), number of miles (mostly short or long
> rides?), extra equipment drain, etc. The OEM Yuasa on my '99 was still
> going strong after more than 5 years (always on a Battery Tender when not
> riding). I replaced it with a WestCo AGM in November 2004 just to be
> safe,
> then replaced a failed R/R in January 2005. The WestCo (also constantly
> B-T
> maintained) is still charging perfectly after 2.5 years.
>
> 2) IIRC, your VFR is a 5th generation ('98 or '99 as I recall). If so, I
> think your reported charging rates are suspect, as they differ
> significantly
> from mine. At idle, I generally see 14-14.2 volts; and at speed
> 13.6-13.8.
> Only when the bike sits idle without the B-T for awhile does the voltage
> ever drop below 13 (and then only to 12.8 or 12.9).
>
> 3) I'm now 59 years of age, have owned and ridden motorcycles since I was
> 16, and I've never had a battery last less than 4 years (even when I was
> younger and lax on maintenance). I'm not opposed to the idea of spending
> $60 or so every two years, but my 40+ years of experience suggests that
> it's
> just not necessary.
>
> Are you sure there isn't still something awry with your Viffer's charging
> system?
>
> "Just another update for all of you who jumped in and tried to help me
> when
> the electrical demons threatened my trip. I now have two days of running
> behind me since I put in the battery and everything is still rock solid.
> Most of the time it is charging between 13.1 & 13.3 but occasionally drops
> down to 12.9. I have seen 12.8 only once and nothing below that.
>
> While my Yuasa was only 2 years old and both seemed and tested perfect, it
> was not and was the source of all the charging system problems I was
> having.
> Several years ago the head of technical training for Honda MC told a
> mutual
> friend to tell me that I should put in a new Yuasa battery every two
> years.
> He said bad batteries are the main cause of problems with VFR electrical
> systems. I guess I should have followed his direction to the letter but
> didn't. I was only a few month over 2 years and figured he was
> exaggerating
> the point. I think I will follow his recommendation to the T going
> forward..."
>
> Andy
>
> Andrew Bertsch
> '99VFR800FI/Sargent
> Cogito Ergo Zoom
> Sidney, Ohio
> abertsch1@xxxxxx
>
>
> _____
>
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>
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> https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vfr
>

--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/FW%3A-Re%3A-He...html#a11606953
Sent from the Honda VFR mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Hello Roger ~

It would help to have a bit more info re: your charging problem - i.e. 1)
How many miles are on your '99? 2) When/at what mileage did the charging
problem first begin to show its ugly face? 3) What conditions do you
generally ride in (wet, hot, etc.)? 4) Is your VFR garaged? 5) Are you
running the original R/R?

In advance of your answers to those questions, my suspicions include: 1) A
failing R/R (test per the flow-chart at Electrosport.com) 2) A bad/dirty
connection (check/clean all connections/grounds between the R/R, stator &
battery). 3) Bad stator (least likely unless your Viffer has lots of miles
on the clock).

Let me (and the List) know what you find.

Andrew Bertsch
'99VFR800FI/Sargent
Cogito Ergo Zoom
Sidney, Ohio
abertsch1@xxxxxx

Dear Andrew, I have a 99 VFR with chronicly intermittent low battery
charging inspite of replacement battery. At idle it charges at 12.8 and @
5000 revs as high as 13.8 however if one backs off the revs it often drops
below 12 and will not reestablish a higher charge rate in spite of rev
increase. If I turn it off and restart all is OK and then the charging
gremlin re-emerges again for some reason not allowing a higher charging
voltage than 11.86-which suggests no charging is happening at all ( I have
kept the rectifyer cool with computer fan blowing accross the fins while
running as suggested by the british who were having rectifyer failures due
to overheating) any ideas of where to go at this point? thanks Rogerbc

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Roger ~

Your symptoms suggest rather clearly that you have a failed
Regulator/Rectifier. Still, you should do the test (re: Electrosport.com)
to be sure. Honda introduced a new/improved R/R for your '99 VFR, and the
failure ratio has been much improved. Google to find best price, but
Ridenow, Service Honda, Ron Ayers, et al are among the best. The
new/improved R/R part number is 31600-MBG-305.

Andy
Andrew Bertsch
'99VFR800FI/Sargent
Cogito Ergo Zoom
Sidney, Ohio
abertsch1@xxxxxx


-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Mitchell [mailto:rsmitch@xxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 4:51 PM
To: 'Andrew Bertsch'
Subject: RE: FW: Re: Help needed / Wires, Connectors and Grounds...



Thanks for the reply Andrew. The answers to your questions are as follows:

1) Mileage is 20,000 kms (12,500 miles)

2) It started last fall with the clock suddenly zeroing out at the end of
the season ride - a cool day- almost too cool to ride, which usually occurs
here in South East BC around mid October. I was unable to start without
jumping from a spare isolated battery. Since then, the clock has
mysteriously zeroed out for no reason and usually has been associated with
starting problems (although occasionally it has started in- spite of the
clock's aberrant behavior). I must admit I do not understand why a low
voltage would wipe out the clock given its small amp draw.

3) I charged the battery off and on all winter and once again the starting
problem happened on the first ride of the year (a 400km ride). The later
part of the ride was through a brief rainstorm. At the end of the ride,
after gassing up, it failed to start. I did not have a voltmeter with me.
Friends push started me. I replaced the battery with a new one, which read
12.8 volts upon installation, and all was well for another 200kms of bopping
in and out of town. I thought the problem was solved.

4) Most recently on a hot day +35C I parked it briefly in the sun while
shopping, (after 20 minute ride to town), and then it would not start. A
rescue friend arrived with Voltmeter and it read 10+ volts. Once again,
passive jump from a car battery and all was OK

5) Summers here are in mid 30's and usually dry. It is in my basement
garage shop for the winter which is above freezing and dry

6) I have the original RR, as mentioned the charging values at 1200 rpm
idle, and 5000 rpms are between 12.6 and 13.8 and then appear to crap out
intermittently. The cooling fan was on as it was in the sun when tested
yesterday, which probably takes some of the charging volts but given the
resting charge of the battery was 12.1. I would assume that the RR should
have kicked in and started charging to keep the battery between 12.4 and
12.6 once the motorcycle was going



I will take your advice, follow all the wires, and check connections. The
VFR manual sucks when it came to describing actual RR out puts etc so will
check your suggested link. Thanks again for your interest Andrew it is much
appreciated, cheers Roger Mitchell



Roger & Sharon Mitchell

Cranbrook BC Canada

Ph: (250) 427-2362

Fax: (250) 427-7613

Email: rsmitch@xxxxxx


_____


From: Andrew Bertsch [mailto:abertsch1@xxxxxx]
Sent: July 16, 2007 1:01 PM
To: rsmitch@xxxxxx
Cc: VFR Mailing List
Subject: Re: FW: Re: Help needed / Wires, Connectors and Grounds...



Hello Roger ~

It would help to have a bit more info re: your charging problem - i.e. 1)
How many miles are on your '99? 2) When/at what mileage did the charging
problem first begin to show its ugly face? 3) What conditions do you
generally ride in (wet, hot, etc.)? 4) Is your VFR garaged? 5) Are you
running the original R/R?

In advance of your answers to those questions, my suspicions include: 1) A
failing R/R (test per the flow-chart at Electrosport.com) 2) A bad/dirty
connection (check/clean all connections/grounds between the R/R, stator &
battery). 3) Bad stator (least likely unless your Viffer has lots of miles
on the clock).

Let me (and the List) know what you find.

Andrew Bertsch

'99VFR800FI/Sargent

Cogito Ergo Zoom

Sidney, Ohio

abertsch1@xxxxxx



Dear Andrew, I have a 99 VFR with chronicly intermittent low battery
charging inspite of replacement battery. At idle it charges at 12.8 and @
5000 revs as high as 13.8 however if one backs off the revs it often drops
below 12 and will not reestablish a higher charge rate in spite of rev
increase. If I turn it off and restart all is OK and then the charging
gremlin re-emerges again for some reason not allowing a higher charging
voltage than 11.86-which suggests no charging is happening at all ( I have
kept the rectifyer cool with computer fan blowing accross the fins while
running as suggested by the british who were having rectifyer failures due
to overheating) any ideas of where to go at this point? thanks Rogerbc




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Electrex / Electrosport Fault Chart is here:

_http://www.electrosport.com/electrosport_fault_finding.html_
(http://www.electrosport.com/electros...t_finding.html)

Note the first paragraph of the opening page introduction:

"ElectroSport Fault Finding

Any well working charging system on a modern bike will produce a voltage
over the battery terminals in between 13.5 Vdc and 14.5 Vdc, over the entire rev
range. When you suspect a fault in the system, this is the first thing to
check.

When you find that there is a problem, keep in mind that the number 1
problem with any charging system are bad connections.

Suspect any connection in the entire system. It's advisable to take off all
fairing parts, the fuel tank and seat, and just disconnect all connectors you
can find. Do these one at a time, and spray them with a contact cleaner
before fitting the connector again. On the widely used bullet connectors, the
ones used on many Japanese bikes for connecting single wires to each other, you
should see if the male bullet connector needs a firm push when it slides into
the female one. If not, use a pair of pliers to make the fit tighter in the
female connector."

Trace all of the wires in the charging circuit, break, lube/clean/deoxit all
connectors and GROUNDS. Check around the main fuse box and quick
connections buried under the seat near the battery box.

Velcro a portable VOM to the gas tank with leads going to the battery and
watch your readings and let us know what you get.

There is a possibility with solid wiring and good positive connections you
may not need a R/R or stator replacement.

Good luck.

Fred in CT w/ Ver. 96 BTDT w/ the charging system......




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