When is it going to stop???

Discussion in 'Anything Goes' started by fink, Feb 15, 2018.

  1. fink

    fink Member

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    Yet another mass shooting in the land of the free.

    17 shot dead and another 14 injured. The 300th school shooting since 2013.
     
  2. GreginDenver

    GreginDenver New Member

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    I don't know, there's kind of a long standing tradition of human beings killing each other. Normally everybody seems pretty enthusiastic about traditional things.
     
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  3. Allyance

    Allyance Insider

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    Screen Shot 2018-02-15 at 8.27.36 AM.png
    Screen Shot 2018-02-15 at 8.22.44 AM.png
    It's time we do something about this.
     
  4. GreginDenver

    GreginDenver New Member

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    I prefer unarmed peasants (as long as I'm not one of the unarmed peasants).
     
  5. duccmann

    duccmann Member

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    It’s out of control
    Do you think maybe these kids dealing with cyber bullying, anti depressants and God only knows what other factors apply, single parents ( mostly woman ) abuse, you get the picture.
    Kids just don’t have the backbone to deal with life in general anymore.
    What is happening time and time again to derail these kids to become mass murders?
    Scary shit
    Lint has the right idea not to put his kids in harms way by homeschooling.
    Family first
    In a rush
    Hope I made my point


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  6. Allyance

    Allyance Insider

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    It's time for Congress to pass some common sense laws (background checks, no fly list restrictions, & mental health history) without alienating legitimate gun owners. It's all about the $$$$, the NRA wields too much influence over our elected officials.
     
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  7. Thumbs

    Thumbs Member

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    Who NEEDS an AR 15 and armour piercing ammo?

    When I went deer hunting I never met one wearing body armour
     
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  8. 34468 Randy

    34468 Randy Secret Insider

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    Unfortunately the interpretation of the Second amendment has been revised and changed every time it goes before the supreme court. Just about anyone is going to interpret a phrase in a manner that is not exactly as the person before him. The more often it is interpreted, the less clear it becomes. What even complicates matter even more, is the ownership and rights to carry or possess changes from state to state . So in one jurisdiction in the USA, you can legally posses and carry concealed weapons while it could be possible that a few feet away, across a state line, you may not be able to. Add to this, exactly where does that state line exist? Just look at the state lines and how they have changes over the years, where the state line is the Red or Mississippi River.

    Now someone is trying to pass a law there that if you have a certain lawful right in one jurisdiction, that right should follow you around your country. Next thing you know, those same people will start to argue that that right should follow you across international borders.

    I have no issue proclaiming I am not a gun person. I carried one in a holster for 25 1/2 years and was never happier than when I gave that gun back to the Government who supplied it to me. I looked at having that firearm was a necessary tool of the business I was in at that time. I have never owned a gun and right now, have no intention to ever buy one, unless I decide to take up hunting. I won't hunt if I won't eat the meat. I like my grain fed Canadian Beef. You may agree with me, you may not. You may not care in the slightest. Furthermore, and quite honestly, I don't care what you think about that.

    I don't think there will ever be common consensus in the USA on gun ownership. With over 350 million people, having a mass majority agree on this is a pipe dream to be sure. But every time something like this happens, you will notice some person in authority stand up before a mic and proclaim that they will do something so that this never ever happens again. All the way from the local sheriff and mayor, school official and all the way up to the US president. Trump this morning spoke of the horror of this event and made statements that the government and the office of the president are relaying their condolences to the people hurt here. Exact same message that Obama declared after the mass shooting n Connecticut several years ago. And those two hate each other.

    So every one says a change must take place. But it never does. Most people will forget this in a couple weeks. That does not mean the dangers of unstable or devious people go away. It does not. IT IS STILL THERE! We all know that gun ownership in the USA is not going to go away.

    For a crime to have been committed you need three things. You need a victim, a perpetrator and a means. Remove any one of those and the crime does not get committed. Remove the victims? How likely is that in this case at a school. Going to school is like breathing. Remove the means? That is the gun. We already know where this is going. Remove the perpetrator? There is a possibility the USA can do something about that. However, it would mean the government is going to infringe on some of the populations second amendment rights. But remember. An amendment is just that. An amendment to an actual Act. You can have amendments to amendments. Find a way to accomplish that first. And after a passage of time, and our society changes like it has since the USA Constitution was written, make necessary amendments again.

    But first. Prohibit lobbyists and business from the ability to influence legislators. Good luck. I feel for all of you down in Florida.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2018
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  9. fink

    fink Member

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    Agreed. I watched a video clip the other day. Wished I’d saved it. It highlighted the problem with the gun laws in the US.


    It’s got to the stage where this kind of thing is no longer a tragedy it’s common place.


    Where else in the world can a toddler kill an adult or a dog shoot it’s owner?
     
  10. Diving Pete

    Diving Pete Member

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    This is a very emotive issue, in some places having a gun is your only form of self defence, in others, totally unnecessary..

    In 2015 roughly 13,000 people died from guns, 31,000 died in cars

    If I lived in calif I'd probably own a gun, I once went to a friends house in Portland Oregon (1987) & he knew I was military - he wasn't & had never been..
    I noticed a rifle of his and said do I want to see the rest...
    He had 38 guns !! & didn't think that was a problem !!

    As a FYI.
    In my younger days I was ex-army (airborne) & was a sniper..
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2018
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  11. Allyance

    Allyance Insider

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    I live in California, and I don't own a gun. People who own guns, have been the military respect them and are trained better than most in their use, but an AR-15 in the hands of 19 year old with a dubious personal history, that is not right.

    Guns are some people's hobby as well, they appreciate the differences and capabilities. Maybe some of the 38 were collector items.

    There was a case where a young girl went to school with a loaded gun in her backpack, she dropped the backpack and the gun went off and killed another girl. Now two peoples lives and families are ruined forever. So gun safety is another major component of this problem, with cops having their weapons stolen out of cars to parents leaving guns unsecured.
     
  12. Lint

    Lint Member

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    The common thread behind almost all of these shootings is kids getting psychotropic drugs forced down their throats. The side effects to ALL of them are homicidal, suicidal thoughts and actions and psychosis. It's a simple matter to Google their side effects and see for yourself.
    I firmly hold to the second Amendment being a Constitutional Right. For the very reasons it was established. Self defense and a deterrent of oppressive government. There aren't interpretations. There is exactly what it meant, and why it was written, using the language and meanings/usage of the words and commas at the time it was written. That's what it means and there are multiple Federalist papers to back up it's intent.

    I cannot fathom how anyone can see the irony of "common sense gun laws", when the only people that are at all affected by it are the ones following the law already. The criminals won't follow them, whatsoever, and to think they will is the deepest depth of naivety and wishful thinking.
    Murder is already against the law. Didn't stop anyone. Drugs are against the law. Same thing. Those that choose to break the law, always will and they will find a way to do it. Be that bags of fertilizer, driving trucks into crowds or knife attacks in schools.
    When you take away a person's right and ability to defend themselves and therefore remove all consequence against the criminal, you simply embolden them. These kids aren't walking into police station and opening fire, because they know they would be blown to kingdom come. No, they are going to places that their targets have no legal right to self defense. Utterly f***ing unbelievable that anyone would want to broaden that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2018
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  13. fink

    fink Member

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    Notice no mention of militia ad is mentioned in your constitution.

    No I wouldn’t say it’s drugs, it’s more than likely to be thier upbringing. Your constitution was established more than 200 years ago in totally different times and adapted from English law that was passed 100 years earlier.

    “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”
     
  14. 34468 Randy

    34468 Randy Secret Insider

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    It is amazing how much of the population has taken this phrase to mean every citizen has a right to go out an buy just about any firearm they want to protect their personal property, rather than to have the ability to arm themselves for the purpose of joining a militia to assure the safety and security of their country, presumably from tyranny or overthrow by a foreign entity.
     
  15. VFR4Lee

    VFR4Lee Member

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    Give the shooters a speedy trial, then the death penalty. Fast.
    May or may not deter others, but that A hole will not do it again.
    The problem here is it takes forever, the system is fooked.
    We could not even execute Charlie Manson. Speaking of which, bury his ashes with Osama.

    This world would be a better place without guns. Never gonna happen though.
    You can't fix stupid. :chaingun:
     
  16. 01ragtop

    01ragtop Member

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    By coincidence, I was in a round-table discussion with several professionals, (FBI, University Security, School Facilities Planners, etc.) with the Architect that designed the new Sandy Hook School when yesterday's shooting happened. There are ways to prevent these shootings, but politicians are more interested in politicizing the issue rather than addressing the issue with common sense legislation. There hasn't been a fire related death in a California School in decades because the state mandates fire rated walls, automatic fire alarms, fire sprinklers, etc., and has professional plan checkers and inspectors verify theses systems are installed and operational. But security laws are ambivalent and presented as guidelines with no plan check, inspection, or security professional verifying a valid comprehensive security system is in place. All over the state, school Emergency Operation Plans (EOP) are left to school administrators to develop, and with all due respect, these busy individuals are not security experts. EOPs often contain references to out of state/jurisdiction emergency phone numbers or agencies because they are being downloaded from the internet an applied as boilerplate documents that will never be used.

    Without legislation mandating that schools be designed and retrofitted for security, and the funding to implement the security, the measures that could save lives will never happen for a variety of reasons. Parents/Community members believe that securing schools through environmental design says something negative about the community at large or makes parents feel that they are sending their kids somewhere that ISN'T safe simply because security measures are in place. The culture of the community school that is open and inviting actually prevents proper security and presents an opportunity for the would-be aggressor. Schools need to be both inviting to students and secure from violence.

    Politicians can talk about gun control until their blue in face, even implement laws regulating and controlling gun ownership, but any realistic conversation about school security has to start with the premise that gun control is never going to happen, and even if it does, criminals will always be able to obtain them.

    Think about this: In Florida this kid was able to walk onto a campus with an Ar-15 (no small firearm) pull the fire alarm and NO ONE questioned him? Not one teacher or Admin notice a kid carrying a rifle through the campus or through the parking lot? He was never routed through a single point of secure entry? Not one counselor had the resources available to help a kid who was acting out after the death of a parent? This was a PREVENTABLE tragedy.
     
  17. squirrelman

    squirrelman Member

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    It's plain and simple: we need to get rid of schools or firearms or both. :eek:
     
  18. 34468 Randy

    34468 Randy Secret Insider

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    To respond to your last paragraph first, it has been reported that the school had conducted a fire alarm drill earlier in the day. Then the sico again pulled the fire alarm and started shooting at students as they left the building which in turn allowed him access. The mass confusion at the time would likely allow him to avoid most security measures likely to be in place, unless those measures are backed up with highly trained security personnel.

    Environmental design need not be ugly. I am trained in Crime Prevention Through Environmental Design. A CPTED practitioner should review plans at the design stag and point out the weaknesses. It then goes back to the architects to change. CPTED then reviews them again and the process goes over and over until they arrive at a design that is an acceptable risk. Now. Under yesterday's circumstances that term "acceptable risk" may sound really hard and cruel. But it is used every day, every where for everything. You need to balance the hardscape of a design with the welcoming appeal of a school.

    I understand your position when you pointed out fire safety of schools in the past and the resulting success of that design. Unfortunately that may be a poor comparison. Fire is known to behave a certain way and it is quite easy to adapt just about any building that I have seen at least, to include fire suppression and resistance without making the building look like the inside of a fire suppression training building, With people with guns, wanting to kill other people, you are dealing with an entity that is capable of thought, albeit deranged thought.

    All that said, there is alwasy room form target hardening of our schools and students. The fact that they are putting in place security measure is at least a step in the right direction. Hopefully those schools who just downloaded it from the net, will re-address their plans and improve where need be. Involve the police in the plans. A great resource person would be a SWAT leader to review this with. He would be looking at a building from a tactical point of view.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2018
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  19. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    Folks are fucked up here in the US of A. Not even going tread on the political side of the argument. To answer your question.....never.
     
  20. 01ragtop

    01ragtop Member

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    Randy,

    Active shooters act in predictable ways as well. Not the same as fire, but predictable. I agree a secure environment doesn't have to be an ugly environmemt, but too many campuses in California are open with multiple areas of access. A change in culture will be necessary if this is going to change.

    I'm not familiar with school facilities in Florida, however, part of the design should be to have the area of refuge within a secure perimeter. Currently, DSA only requires the area of refuge be on the site.

    LEO/FBI provide resources and train along side school admin for active shooter scenarios, but CPTED best practices aren't required. CPTED/Facilities are only one aspect of security. Operations/personnel is another. The reality is that school shootings are statistically a small threat to schools, so the mindset and awareness isn't sufficiently focused to prevent someone from entering the site with a firearm during the distraction of a fire drill. That needs to change.
     
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