Anyone with the 8th generation know why Honda did not put out a 1000 instead of the 800?

Discussion in '8th Generation 2014-Present' started by Bubba Utah, Jul 5, 2016.

  1. Gator

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    I was going to do a line by line of Caymans review but it was just too much.

    I'd bore and stroke the current engine, scrap Vtec, bump compression and get her up to at least 135 hp roaring V4. Completely overhaul the entire suspension (There are much better forks that could be used, better shock and a lighter swingarm). Keep the front mounted radiator and add modern electronics.
     
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  2. Nelix

    Nelix Active Member

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    Should also run on fresh air instead of petrol, come with the supermodel of your choice and expel unicorn farts from the exhaust.
     
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  3. CandyRedRC46

    CandyRedRC46 Well-Known Member

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    Lol agreed, but keeping VTEC :p
     
  4. Gator

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    lol, you will never sell me on keeping vtec, I want all my valves working all the time. Keep it on Accords.
     
  5. Gator

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  6. CandyRedRC46

    CandyRedRC46 Well-Known Member

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    :deadhorse::rolleyes:
     
  7. Gator

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    lol
    This question is not a dead horse. You have more data and knowledge than most on here. Do you have a ballpark number on torque and HP right before VTEC kicks in? Just curious.
     
  8. CandyRedRC46

    CandyRedRC46 Well-Known Member

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    Dyno numbers vary so much, from dyno to dyno. Similar set ups can show 95whp on one dyno and 115whp on another. It just doesn't make sense to discuss numbers on a forum unless showing back to back tests, on a same day/same dyno test. My personal belief, is that 2 valve operation can be more efficient at lower RPMs, due to the swirl induced in the combustion process. At a certain RPM, this added efficiency becomes a restriction and that is where 4 valves are needed. Depending on how it is mapped, at Low to medium RPMs, 2 valve can be cleaner or more fuel efficient or create more power/torque. I believe Honda tuned the 6th gen for emissions.

    It has already been proven that the 5th gen is far less tolerant of added ignition advance than the 6th gen. The sixth gen can tolerate up to 5 degrees of advance (on top of the factory ignition map), at WOT, in the 2500-8000 range. The 5th gen can only tolerate up to 3 degrees, at low rpms and small throttle openings. Anymore than 3 degrees or trying to maintain that 3 degrees at higher throttle openings / RPMs and the 5th gen engine will detonate/knock.

    Honda left a lot on the table for tuning in the 6th gen, the fifth gen, not so much. This is a direct befit of the swirl induced in the combustion chamber during 2 valve operation, which creates a more stable burn that is much more tolerant of higher combustion pressures (leaner and/or cleaner burning as well).

    I will agree, that stock for stock, there isn't much benefit for the vtec vs non-vtec argument, other than Honda building an engine that was much cleaner and quieter below 7000 RPMs (where emissions and sound testing is conducted).
     
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  9. CandyRedRC46

    CandyRedRC46 Well-Known Member

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    Also, fun fact, the VTEC engine is 3kg lighter and has slightly more aggressive cam specs.
     
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  10. Gator

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    Thanks Candy. I know what you mean about dyno numbers. A friend that had a bike shop had one. He was very good at it and even better with suspensions for fast paced track guys. Occasionally he would get a guy in for a dyno run or tune and they would be pissed about their numbers. He would tell them that they are real numbers as he could get but could dial in just about any number they wanted to see. Another reason not to believe in a dyno printout of some guy boasting about his 190hp CBR with a slip on and flapper mod. lol
     
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  11. Gator

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    THAT is very interesting.
     
  12. cayman

    cayman New Member

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    Ha Ha. Weight (or more costly materials) is absolutely added if you produce to a liter + bike, which was my main point. You know very well that Honda reliability won't be achieved if you don't go through the bike and upsize critical parts to handle increased power. Cooling system, powertrain, chassis, rear tire, etc -- all may need to be beefed up. Perhaps not Shamu weight, but still too much for my tastes.

    If all you want is 54 more cc, well fine knock yourself out. TTS Performance offers the kit. http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/index.php?/forums/topic/33919-837cc-big-bore-kit/ That wouldn't affect reliability/durability too much. I still contend that the same power could be achieved at the factory with no displacement increase in a new generation.
     
  13. cayman

    cayman New Member

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    Nothing wrong with Sammy's tequila.

    Man, I had no idea people could be so color senstive. Thank you for not being an argumentative "WTF" prick like Nelix.

    Please reread my original proposal: "offer 3 colors in all markets. red and black and something else (maybe not white, which I think has been a sales flop)"

    Did you intentionally skip over the MAYBE or the I THINK? The main intent was to tell Honda that 2 colors is not enough choice. Why is the onus on me to "prove" something that I am just proposing could be improved? Was i supposed to expound on this statement to say that the yellow VFR was quickly abandoned after Honda tried it? How was I to know that you would feel personal pain if someone pointed out that Pearl White hasn't been the dominant always-offered VFR (or any other model Honda) color for 3 decades? If you are really in the market for a 9th gen VFR and must have it in white, then perhaps you could have simply added to my post something along the lines of "Well, white is a popular color where I live and I think Honda should continue offering it." I don't really care what the tertiary color offering Honda rolls out. I leave it to you to call Honda to explain the error of their ways.

    At EICMA this year Honda's CB4 concept was offered in what Honda called a "total black" scheme which to me looked like a mix of black and gunmetal grey. That may be the current color trend in the industry, which is why I proposed black ought to be offered on the next VFR.

    Sochiro's color of choice from the very beginning was red: http://www.vintagebike.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/gallery/honda/1949-honda-dream-d-760x570.jpg I don't think anyone needs more reason than that to defend red as a default color offering every year.
     
  14. CandyRedRC46

    CandyRedRC46 Well-Known Member

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    The drive train is more than capable of withstanding +160whp (with a simple clutch springs upgrade). This has already been proven with countless Torocharged VFR's. The cooling system has already been upgraded to a conventional front mount for the 8th gen. Nice link to a 10 year old page. That kit, like the torocharger, is no longer in existence....

    The power could easily be raised to 125whp, without a displacement increase (insert gsxr750), but it would be much easier for Honda to reach that goal with an additional 50-100cc's. It doesn't need to be a liter bike, but close to 900cc's would be nice. A nice even 860 could be easily and reliably achieved by Honda from a simple 2mm bore and stroke increase. Very easy for Honda, not so easy for your average Joe. I would imagine that with 860cc's Honda could squeeze out 125whp from the VFR without much more aggressive cams/compression, no need for premium fuel and maintaining a nice friendly powerband. Now trying to squeeze 125whp from 750cc's, you are going to need premium fuel to say the least.....
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
  15. Nelix

    Nelix Active Member

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    Still butthurt I see, still resorting to profanities. Sigh, kids these days.
     
  16. cayman

    cayman New Member

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    off road oriented "adventure" bike shares same chassis as the 790 Duke naked bike
    799cc parallel twin
    "just over 100 horsepower", 63 lb-ft torque, "just under 420 pounds"

    Nice package. The KTMs are not sports touring bikes, of course, but this is a solid looking machine.

    As I proposed, I think Honda could offer a new VFR with at least as much power and torque plus proper sport-touring features at a total weight of 450 pounds and without going greater than 800cc.
     
  17. CandyRedRC46

    CandyRedRC46 Well-Known Member

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    The other chuckle worthy comment was Honda being ready for a 9th gen VFR...
    The 6th gen lasted 12 years and you think the 4 year old 8th gen is ready for an upgrade?
    Honda will probably try to squeeze every penny out of the 8th gen's life cycle and stretch it out another 10 years lol.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
  18. CandyRedRC46

    CandyRedRC46 Well-Known Member

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    Honda is great, but they are not capable of dropping 80 pounds off of the VFR800 with out a very costly full redesign. I have busted ass getting my 2007 down to 460 pounds and that is with only 2 gallons in the tank, but I don't need to conform to noise and emissions standards, something Honda would still need to do...
     
  19. cayman

    cayman New Member

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    You can still buy the parts you need for overboring about any bike, but obviously many VFR aftermarket mod shops have moved on. As you said, ot's not something the average bike owner is willing to do.

    We are in total agreement that the VFR with minimal chassis and drivetrain mods could achieve a reliable 125 whp. The current GSX-R750 produces 128 whp and weighs 428 lb without any touring features. If Suzuki can do it without going to 900cc, so can Honda.

    I am not so sure about the VFR being bulletproof enough to handle 160 whp. Every production bike you see with 160+ whp has at least a 190mm rear tire, stiffer chassis, bigger brakes, 530 chain, etc. The specs for a Blackbird or a Hayabusa -speak for themselves -- that much power means you end up with a bike weight well over 500 pounds unless you're going with exotic materials. Not as fun as a daily driver, IMHO.

    If it was easy for Honda to bump the VFR engine to 860cc with no other bike mods, one does wonder why didn't they do it in 2002? Would be interesting to interview the Honda engineers.
     
  20. cayman

    cayman New Member

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    You are probably correct. Then again, the 6th gen is an outlier that coincided with a worldwide financial mess. All other generations of VFR were on a 3-4 year refresh schedule. I remain optimistic that Honda will improve the VFR rather than let it wither on the vine.
     
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