Bleeding the brake system with a power bleeder

Discussion in '5th Generation 1998-2001' started by Scoooterpuff, Sep 16, 2014.

  1. Scoooterpuff

    Scoooterpuff New Member

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    00 VFR800FI.
    Rear caliper needs some work and rear master cylinder does as well. no big. But, When it comes to bleeding the brakes, I am able to make a power bleeder adapter to work on the master cylinder for front and rear. I have a power bleeder.

    With this brake setup I know its over 12 steps to bleed the whole system but if I pressurize the master cylinders, can I just crack the bleeders one by one, in proper order and go with that instead of using a mighty vac or equiv. piece? I would assume me using a power bleeder would also help in purging air/fluid from the secondary from master.

    I know I have read somewhere on here, someone asking the very same question. I did not see an answer and I would much rather use a power bleeder.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated.
     
  2. OOTV

    OOTV Member

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    Technically the front and rear are not linked completely how one might think. The front is actually bled independently from the rear, the linked part comes from the secondary master cylinder that gets triggered by centrifugal force when the left front caliper is triggered by the front brake and the conversely the PCV that applies pressure to the front calipers, gets triggered by the rear pedal. Unless squeezing the front lever and pressing the rear pedal, you're not getting full braking force both front and rear. On the 5 Gen this is truer than the 6 Gen, as the 5 Gen the two center pistons on the front are the ones that get triggered by the rear pedal, where as the 6 Gen, it is only the center piston on the left caliper that gets triggered.

    Theory says though, if the holes in which the fluid pass are not completely independent for outer and center pistons, then maybe pressurizing the system might be possible to allow one to bleed front and rear from one pressurized location. My bet is that you'd have to pressurize the front independently front the rear and bleed them separately.

    I hope this helps, if you don't have the Honda service manual, send me a PM and I can send you a link to the one I have in my Dropbox folder.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2014
  3. metallyguitarded

    metallyguitarded New Member

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    Hence, why I'm making the ride north to have OOTV help me with my brakes!
     
  4. Scoooterpuff

    Scoooterpuff New Member

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    Well, I bought the manual and I was planning on pressurizing the front master, and the rear master but manufacturing sealing caps for each reservoir. I read the bleeding procedure and since I have to remove the rear caliper, i know i have to bleed everything essentially anyhoo. Might as well also go through the secondary from master and the rear master to ensure they are working as they should. Since the rear caliper is sticking, when i use the front brakes (that is how i brake right now) it doesnt affect the rear caliper. if I use the rear master pedal that thing is a bit hard and i think the prev. owner let the fluid get too low and it got gunky in there.

    I do appreciate the responses. I def need to flush the fluids. brakes are first as its a safety thing. The other point is i have to open up the system in three places. So, I figured pressurizing the system will help push the air out of the pcv and the other lines.

    Anyone know if the same covers off harleys fit our bikes? Motive (who makes my power bleeder) sells various motorcycle caps and yet its for Harleys, brembo and one other manufacturer...
     
  5. OOTV

    OOTV Member

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    Don't know Harley's so I could not tell you, but I believe these are Nissin master cylinders, at least the calipers are. I can tell you that my 5 Gen owner neglected his brakes and the fluid looked like coffee, the rear was similar to what you describe on yours. I found that the two outer pistons were nicked and the burr that was on the pistons was rubbing away at the seals and the rubber was gumming up the piston making them stick. I pulled the caliper apart and had to use about 100PSI of air pressure to pop out the pistons!

    New seals, new pistons, new brake lines and all better now. I'm sure once you give the MC's and calipers the once over you'll good to go. Pics and a report would be cool too.

    Cheers
     
  6. Scoooterpuff

    Scoooterpuff New Member

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    Yeah. prev. owner let the pads wear until just a hair width of pad was left. so, the pistons sticking out plus moisture caused them to corrode some. I was able to push the pistons in with my fingers but they were tough. That, and add to a gummy rear master and im sure theres my issues. When i use the rear master, the rear caliper hangs and it sort of got the brand new pads hot... i got off, let it cool and was able to free it up by pushing the caliper towards the rotor to add clearance.

    Where did you source new lines, and are they OE rubber, or braided?
     
  7. OOTV

    OOTV Member

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    They are HEL Steel Braided lines. I will say it was pretty easy to get them all installed except the two from hard cross over lines, I didn't have a flare nut wrench and the damn nuts started to round off and I couldn't tighten them enough to stop the joint from weeping, so I bought two new lines and some flare nut wrenches and made it work! Moto Heaven is the HEL US Distributor and that's where I got my lines from, they aren't cheap but they are solid lines that's for sure. I know Galfer and Spiegler make good lines too but for colored banjos, they use aluminum, HEL uses stainless steel end to end. Ironically though, if you want colored banjo bolts from HEL, those are aluminum, otherwise the kit comes with stainless steel bolts already. They do offer titanium but way too expensive IMO!

    Here's a link to Moto Heaven http://www.moto-heaven.com


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    Here's the hard lines that I was talking about. It took quite a bit to get these off the old rubber lines which is where most of the damage came from.
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  8. Scoooterpuff

    Scoooterpuff New Member

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    Just priced some HEL lines. Actually not bad for how many there are. 146 for front and rear... i spent more doing a line upgrade on my old truck, haha.

    Did the front and rear kit also come with the lines that go to the pcv and what not? A complete, full kit? I am wondering if I should do that, and build front and rear bleeder caps for the res. and just go through all calipers, masters and be done. I still have to source fairing brackets as the stock ones are bent and i am missing the lower oil pan brackets to fairing and the bracket piece coming from the pan is snapped off... this is one hell of a winter proj. bike haha. oh well brakes first. I do need to get those fairings on though... getting bored of half naked status on the bike
     
  9. FJ12rydertoo

    FJ12rydertoo New Member

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    You might want to double-check that price. Seems way too low for a complete set for the VFR. I put Galfer on my '99 and really like them but the Hel lines look good too.

    I doubt that the kit comes with lines to run from front to the PCV. Just to the junction near the steering head, that was how the Galfer was set up. Galfer also did away with the solid lines across the fender.
     
  10. Scoooterpuff

    Scoooterpuff New Member

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    Gotcha... Well I will take another look at a front and rear kit for HEL. the front kit was 98 and then adding the rear was an additional 48.
     
  11. OOTV

    OOTV Member

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    Here's the FULL kit (albeit in boxes). The price should be closer to $500 with the clutch line as well.
    IMG_1297.jpg
    IMG_1298.jpg

    Replaces all of this...
    IMG_1511.jpg
     
  12. nearfreezing

    nearfreezing New Member

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    I thought the MityVac was useless for bleeding the 6th gen's brakes. Gravity and manual pumping worked great, however.
     
  13. OOTV

    OOTV Member

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    The Mity-Vac comes in handy if you're replacing your lines, makes draining/filling a snap but for a basic bleed procedure, it's not a necessity. Speed bleeders on the other hand are great for that job.
     
  14. FJ12rydertoo

    FJ12rydertoo New Member

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    If you can keep the bleed valves from leaking air around the threads the Mity-Vac works very well, like OOTV says. Unless you seal the threads though it's kind of a pain. OTOH Speedbleeders are the cat's ass for just bleeding.
     
  15. nearfreezing

    nearfreezing New Member

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    That's why using a MityVac is counterproductive for most people. I've never tried speed bleeders, but manual pumping the VFRs brakes to flush fluid was effective and easy. Pressurizing the front/rear master cylinders would probably speed things up, but is not necessary at all.
     
  16. Scoooterpuff

    Scoooterpuff New Member

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    It probably isnt necessary, but easier and one person
     
  17. FJ12rydertoo

    FJ12rydertoo New Member

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    Yeah, that's the main advantage with the Speedbleeders: one person operation.
     
  18. rigger4343

    rigger4343 New Member

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    I did the brakes on my bike not to long ago with the help of another fellow VFR rider in town. I used a vacuum type bleeder on mine, kind of like a Mighty Vac but WAY BIGGER. It sucked mine through like a champ.
     
  19. Scoooterpuff

    Scoooterpuff New Member

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    Hey guys. Figured I would update this thread with plenty of progress.

    So I rebuilt my rear caliper and master cylinder, did the front pads and so on and needed to bleed everything. Tried using a rental brake bleeder from advance (which has always worked wonders in the past) but after an hour it would not seal right. Went and bought a might vac and boy it took a while, but I bled the entire system and went for some rides. Noticed that the rear master and caliper were a wee bit spongy and didnt work well so this time I decided to use my motive power bleeder. Since no one makes caps for the power bleeder that fit onto these bikes, I made my own.

    Let me tell you, it gets every bit of air and BS out fast. I found that because of the long rear lines to the caliper and following the manual to hang it upside down while attached to the rear rotor, air bubbles were able to be trapped. The power bleeder got those out fast. After that, I cracked the bleeder and actuated the rear master and got the itty bitty bubbles left.

    Below are links to the pics for viewing pleasure but to make the caps I simply bought a factory used front master cap and an aftermarket aluminum rear cap. Both from Ebay and both about 12 bucks each. I had fittings laying around, but for anyones information, they were 1/4 by 1/4 NPT and hose barb end. For the rear cap, I used a washer on top followed by an o-ring and then inside the cap was another o-ring followed by another washer. Used thread sealant tape and an adapter to act as a nut. Then I bought a round rubber washer and cut to fit around the washer and inside the cap. Presto, a nice new tool. For the front cap I just used the same fitting, a washer on top and then the 2 part mixing putty, then on the inside of the cap I used more putty, put in the white plastic part and used an NPT adapter piece to tighten and allow everything to dry. For giggles, I sealed the top washer and putty with a second layer of loctite G02 gel super glue (mostly to try it out and see how it does compared to my 2 part epoxy) (i like epoxy more) and then I cut of excess brass so it wasnt protruding so far into the master cylinder that I potentially allow air in. So now, I am going to bleed the rest of the system again but this time, it should be easy as hell to do since all I need to do is catch the fluid coming from each bleeder. I also cut a hole in a water bottle and fed some hose in so I could just crack a bleeder and let it pour in.

    Later, I am going to be adding quick disconnects to the caps I made so I dont have to hassle with having to thread tape each time and screw on the different caps. Eventually I will make another bleeder that uses the garden sprayer 1.5 gal. bottle and tap it for air compressor fittings so I can just have that bleed an entire vehicle without manual pumping. Yes, I could drill and tap my Motive, but I think I will keep my motive unit for small projects and make a larger unit for my truck and cars and what not.

    Enjoy the Pics.

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  20. Scoooterpuff

    Scoooterpuff New Member

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    And I should post these up as well... because OOTV did suggest that pics and updates are nice.
    pic whoring here I go!

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    The pistons are original. Just polished and got them back to new status.

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    And yes, I absolutely cleaned the bolts as they were nasty.
     
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