Help fund the VFR header

I'm surprised this hasn't caught just a hint of a fire, with all the talk and all. it's ok, I understand the Hmm? with crowd funding and all, but figured like out of 31K members there would be a couple hundred interested, at only say $10 a pop this would be funded in no time. is cool, like good wine it takes time.

 

Jay, I share you puzzlement, but I think there might be two factors at work: [1] vfrw and vfrd members have been watching, hoping and communicating about the Tyga header project for so long with no real traction beyond a few positive email responses that they're just not ready to buy into another round, and [2] There's a bit of a Henny Penny attitude going on, where even members who might be interested once the exhaust system is fully realized have adopted a 'wait and see if these guys really build anything worth while' approach.

I'm pretty confident that if we had a 6hp bump on real world dyno runs from a stainless system that looked totally sano and 10 units were ready to ship, those ten units would not sit on the shelf.

That's just my pessimistic brand of optimism speaking...

 

I think a few things are standing in the way:
1. The true, old, adage: Want a faster bike, buy a faster bike. VFR800s, while somewhat quick, are now far down the ladder of acceleration. Any will be challenged hard by quite a few cars now, and blown into the weeds by a good few ADVs, many street fighters, and all 600s just flat disappear. A header system won't change that one bit.
2. 6-9 HP on top is 7-9% more power, hardly anything, and may, critically, come at the expense of the overall power curve. It would be something like 2-3 MPH more in the quarter. I would never sacrifice an iota of low-end torque for a dash of top-end HP. By 1998, manufacturers' exhaust designs had come far; it's very hard to improve overall on what the top-drawer engineers at Honda created, and impossible today.
3. The cost--for $1K, you can buy two new factory header systems, which, even in wet weather riding, would last you 10-15 years.
4. If an actual design produced significantly more areas under the curves--power and torque--there would be more interest.
5. For $1K, you can buy two full days of track school, like California Superbike School, which would make the overall package far faster. A VFR's real-world speed comes from being fast enough to hang with anything in the real world because their riders are better riders. True for any bike, actually.
6. Destroy the most hopped up VFR800 (not talking about goofy supercharger kits) by simply spending $7K on a VFR1200--see 1 above.
7. Spending $1K on slight improvements on an exhaust on a $2-5K bike is dodgy and terrible value. A far better value is spending that on suspension, which has massive, positive effects during 100% of riding time, and changes the character of the bike.

These are some of what I see are reasons why folks aren't interested.

Best,

Kristian

 

Those are all valid real world points Kristian. The hope is that the 5 gen owners who love their motorcycles for what they are and don't want to change platform may choose to go with a thoroughly vetted [When did vetting become such an integral part of our vernacular??] system, especially if it aligns with your most important insight, point #4:

4. If an actual design produced significantly more areas under the curves--power and torque--there would be more interest.
[The best solution for 5 gen owners would make our motorcycles more fun to ride every day, any in and day out]

Price - meh...there are so many threads demonstrating that there are quite a few VFR owners who are happy to drop $2500ish into USD fork conversions and other project conversions and upgrades.

But you really rang even my bell by reminding us that $1000 pays for two track days including tires. Whoa that helps me keep my eye on the prize!

All possibilities are hypothetical without at the very least a proven prototype.

 

Suspension and track days. I have to agree with Kristian. Those two things would make your bike so much faster. And you safer.

 

All great points that have been talked about. Between the lines of reading off other post here and VFRD has it yea there's just an edge of maybes. Had this header stayed in the $700-800 mark, I'd be more incline to move forward . I'm just that curious if nothing else. but since its climbed and there's the possibility of others that may be interested, let see if this is an option to make this header. Nothing ventured sure is nothing gained.

I've had my fare share of track days & riding schools and whole hearty agree that right there is the best bang for the buck. Then yes I agree to the suspension upgrades being able to take advantage of the newly found skills from the track outing. Me being, been there done that, love the VFR for it's over all user friendliness has me seeing if the mysterious missing HPs can be found, "if" I get the burn from so many open ended projects of hope, I'm right there with them, But then things changed here meeting Gabe, that's why I'm doing this, the trick question here is for me is whats it worth for getting X outa what? and that still is a question with the TYGA header, who knows what that If will bring for the money, might as well being the OCD one I am make it for a fact.

Yea the VFR ain't no super bike, never will be, LOL was back in the day though. But believe there's room for improvement, for some it's worth it, for some not so much. That's ok, it's that, that makes the vfr a great fit for so many.

 

We're still going to wait and see.

No offense, but I don't know you. I mean, from here sure, and you seem like a great guy, but you don't strike me as the greatest of automotive engineers, nor have you made that claim. The guy you're hoping will add some knowlege does exhausts, but I looked him up. It's all dirt bikes and dirtbags (Harley) for him, and none of it is sportbikes. I don't trust his knowledge to be applicable, as it is VERY different.

Your friend does lovely welding, but he's not a designer. Here's an analogy -- I do lovely soldering and have built some exception amplifiers, but you wouldn't use me to design your high-speed, high frequency electronics. They aren't necessarily the same skillsets, even if there's crossover. Same with welding and engineering. Welders know a great deal about their materials, but you can't pull a couple of pound feet of torque across the rev range out of your ass.

Frankly, if you want to reap the rewards here, you need to take the risks. Prove this shit works, that you can deliver, and surely someone will come out and purchase what you make. I bet many. I might not -- I mean, if it was cheap enough or if I wanted to build a track-bike from a wreck I might. But I'm also an advocate of good suspension and rider training, so my budget goes there first and I'm not really looking to gamble on a group project that may or may not come to fruition.

Please don't take this as a rebuke. I'd LOVE for this exhaust to be an option, and your friend's work is just lovely. But you're going to have to get it on a dyno yourself, or maybe make a better case somehow for people to kickstart it for you.

 

I agree to what you're saying. But If I don't put it out there, one doesn't know, right Somewhere in some past thread post I did mention feeling a bit awkward throwing it out before hand, so yes I get what your saying, and it may be that's the way I'll go. The Good thing about this is it's been done before from 2 bros and Erion. so it's not overly difficult to get what was made from back then made today, similar to the TYGA build requirements, they want a 2 bro to copy. That's not the issue. It's the RD after is where the real deal will show its self being worthy, that's a no brainier, TYGA isn't interested in that part. but I'm interested in taking it up a notch with what's been done, we pretty much know what to avoid in what doesn't work. Now as far as Gabes work goes, you're only part correct. We have a couple aces in our back pockets. But like you kinda throw out, lets see it first. No offense taken. thanks for the feed back.

 

Less sales pitch aboot how great something is going to be for a few dudes who have a specific year bike and more on how much this is really going to cost for one set of pipes that only fit one bike and one muffler might provide greater positive response. What is out there now is just a soft sell sales pitch.

 

In terms of power... Dropping in the superchager as a&a performance did would be the thing...
But in a "under 1000" range, i would look after ride confort/stabilty rather than power. I mean: tires, suspension, seat, electrics, etc.
I've never looked after the exhaust that much
But the project is cool, the more goodies for the bike available, the best.

 

Just a bump to keep it out there, this will happen.

 

I feel bad that you have only got 3 people to donate, including me.

 

I am definitely interested. I want to know, it is the header only? Mid pipe and muffler/slip on that are currently available will be compatible? I have currently on the bike a micron high mount, as well as a stain tune high mount stashed away. Both have center stand stops. The micron has heat shield installed. I will have to research the stain tune. Also, for future proof, particularly speaking of the rapid bike module, will you have the o2 sensors bungs welded in and caps?

Art

 

Yea, is a bit odd when considering all the chat of in VFRD land, and as simple as it is. Could it be all talk? Part of me says most of us have been dreaming of this to happen and then falls way short. So I understand many are tired of hearing this pipe dream. Well, I'm one to take matters in my own hands, and since I work with a lot of fabricators with my line of work, it's not all that difficult to replicate the 2Bro or Erion, I have the specs. Now it's more a matter of funds. then taking it to the next level with positive R&D, even that on the big picture ain't all that bad. Then, like Moose pointed out, there's the proof if it does what I say. LOL, it's not like the TYGA header would guarantee any better results, "IF" and it's got what 100s of likes and quite a few I'll buy if. At least I'll have numbers that say what it does. It's Ok, just like you say kinda odd that it hasn't got more fire in it's belly here.

On a side note, just because nothing like getting the word out. I wrote VFRDs Mr. Slammer like a month ago, and to this day I haven't heard back his thoughts or approval for adding this to the VFRD site. though it is in my signature there and I've thrown hints out what's in the works. but knowing him, it wouldn't surprise me if he would put the brakes on me, if not out right ban me. smh it's happen before. Now that's weird for one that's so into the VFR.

 

At the present design I have it for the 98-99 vfr , but that said, knowing the market for the next generation of VFRs is more dominate, It wouldn't be a hard to add 02 bungs. Yes to the center stand, that needs to be there huh ? Thing is on the 6th gen, that would require another mid pipe, so on that part that's a bridge to be crossed if the interests justify that. On the 5th gen, I'm making it like the stock header outlet location, so folks will be able to use what ever version of a can they prefer.

 

RVFR,

Any info with my questions? Also, I did not realize there was animosity between the 2 forums, what is the reason for this and why can it not be squashed? Are the 2 forums based in the US? Odd, that there are 2 and kind of a pain to go back and forth to both to get info. I appreciate the Hawk forum, although there is only 1 model/generation of the Hawk so it is easier, but at least there is only one forum to keep track of info etc.

 

I also have 1998 VFR800, just pointing out that if we were to ever get the rapid bike race module, o2 bungs for the Wideband would have to be welded in so I figure this could be done from the start and provide caps so people could upgrade down the line if they need. I'm not sure the optimal location for the bungs to be welded. I think just 2 are needed for rapid bike race correct?

Art

 

Oh yea forgot you asked that. it's a header only, and since I have a Staintune you can guarantee it will fit with yours.

Ya know, thats been quite the questionable debate why the two sites have quite a different feel. Is it as simple as the web site layout? There's a many a conversation here about that very subject. Some say there are more detailed motor heads there, I think not. Since a majority are both here and there. Then there's what is tolerated there vs, here. Here we are a pretty lose bunch. There, not so much. Is that a good thing? or Not? IDK, for me personally, this place flows better in both website use and format IMO.

 

Yes, two bungs would be need, if. again not difficult to add. especially if one was to have the 00-01 VFR. Thing is IMO and with talking with a HRC tuner, the FI system on the 98-99 differs enough to not go that way with out changing it out to the current FI system. that there sounds expansive for questionable gains. "IF"

 

You need bungs for people to add autotune type modules. Anyone willing to drop on headers that different from stock is probably looking at a PCV or Rapidbike system as well. You should plan on it just for them, even if not for 2000 and later folks.