My 1st carb rebuild has begun! 86 VFR750

OK, the electrical issue turned out to be a wiring problem.

After installing the new battery, I did a voltage drain test on it... which it failed. The amps at the main fuse were negative and the battery dropped from 12.4V to 11.3V after only 3 minutes of running with the high beam on and normal idle. So, I wandered over to the left side of the bike and got ready to hook up the multi-meter to do the regulator test and noticed a connector wire was spit out of the housing. I grabbed the housing and it just dropped apart from the other connector... just like that.

So, I'm guessing that with the missing wire the regulator wasn't capping the voltage back to the battery properly the last few days of the previous battery and that it was being overcharged by the system, which cooked the plates and caused the battery to lose it's durability and drop it's CCA to 84 from 400. The final straw had to be the connector coming loose, and the battery completely unable to sustain the bikes power needs during normal operation, leaving me stranded on the side of the 101.

Reseated the wire, reconnected the regulator and BAM! Voltage at the battery is normal, no excess drain and normal Amps at the main fuse! Yay!!!

Now to figure out why the friggin tail light comes on when I lock the ignition.....

Off to my buddies place Saturday afternoon to pull the carbs one last time and clean out the slow jets. Gonna do a bench sync this time and hopefully correct the choke not operating correctly too. Fingers crossed, but I think this thread may reach closure this weekend!!!

Oh, and I passed Clinic 2 (Chassis & Wheels) with a 96%! Next up is machine shop.

 

The manifold should only be removed on the bench and the carbs disassembled with care. Aside from the loss of springs,possible damage to the choke linkage,cracking the side mounting ears on the carb bodies, the cross over tubes are very fragile after twenty four years of heat and crack/split very easily. Four of the last five carbs I had sent to me had these problems because they were disassembled on the bike and turned a simple repair into parts hunt and added down time that was easily avoided.

 

Laz,

This is the parking light. It looks like the key is in the Lock position, but if you go another small click to the left it will lock and the light will go off.

 

Really? I didn't know it had that feature.... I must go play with my key now....

*goes to garage and tinkers with ignition*

.... yup, sure enough. Thanks, Fred. Didn't even notice the "P" on the ignition. Pretty nice thing to have in case I decide to park somewhere and need to be conspicuous.

 

Toe Cutter very good to know lucky for us we removed the carbs from the bike as a unit. Doing it on the bike never crossed our mind. This bike has been a learning experience I never got into m 929 like this.

 

The Sunday visit to Joe's turned out to be a happy and sad moment at the same time... Pewpness!!!

I got over there bright and early at 8am. It was a brisk yet somewhat chilly 45 minute ride to Glendale, but fun none the less cause it was roads that I have yet to ride the VFR on. Once there I pulled the plastics and removed the tank, air box, disconnected the cables and fuel line and popped the carbs off the bike and set it on the bench. Took me 22 minutes to perform this task now (getting quicker each time!)

My buddy Josh never did give me the Maint and Fuel sections back from my manual when he had it at Clinic 5, so Joe had to look up the info on his laptop while I was preparing. With his info in hand, we set upon cleaning the slow jets and diaphragms one by one. Since I didn't have the sheets in front of me, he went by memory from when he worked on a Magna 45 a little while back and set upon drilling into the copper circle in the bowl, thinking thats where the jet was located. I told him I wasn't sure that they were in there, and without having the papers in front of me couldn't argue. He did however promise to replace new anything that he fucked up on the bike during this process, so if he was wrong I got a new carb out of the deal anyways... and he proceeded. It was a few minutes later and a few mini lessons on how to, what not to do and so forth when he realized the placing of the copper cap and the holes just didn't make sense and he stopped. He was about 1/2 way through at this point. We discussed the possibility of the air/fuel mix adjusters being attached to the jets and with that he unscrewed and out came the jet and spring. Shaking his head and bitching about not having the manual with me he cleaned up the bowl and proceeded to clean the jet... which was clogged lightly at the tip. The inside was clean, as was the passageways to the venturi area. He double checked the drilling and said that a few more minutes would have cost him a ton of money. He also said that if him drilling like he did messes it up in any way that he'd buy me a new carb anyways. He's a good mechanic... honestly. He's taken Suzuki, Kawasaki and is now in BMW - which you have to have a CGPA of 90% or better to get in.

We repeated the process on all four carbs, setting each one to 2 1/4 turns out (midway between Cali and 48 since AZ emissions is so lenient) and then pulled and inspected each diaphragm and jet needle. He noted a few minor things that I missed and pointed out things to consider for the near future to replace next time I was inside the carbs. Everything at this point was in great shape, the butterflies matching on the bench and I even was able to fix my choke issue!

The carbs seated back on the bike, I fiddled with the Cali hoses for a few mins making sure they were all hooked up and found that the one on #2 was pinched through and leaking! There was my popping noise during idle and the extra air getting into the system. Cut and reattached that (making a note to get some extra hose so I can replace some of the worn out hoses later) and then put on the air box, fuel lines and tank. I turned the key, excited to hear her run normal for the first time ever, and ran the pump a few times to fill the bowls when I smelled gas. I looked down and sure enough it was dribbling all over the left side of the motor!

Dead stop! Dammit!! NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

We quickly determined that it was coming from the #1 bowl... incidently, not the bowl he was drilling into. He figured he must not have tightened down the one screw enough and grabbed a phillips stubby and tightened it down a few turns. It slowed to a drop and stopped. I pushed some more gas into the bowl and it started leaking again. He cursed a few choice words and we removed the bowl from the carb to find that what had happened was the gasket had crossed the bead and got pinched. Would have been ok probably had he not tightened it down and cut it in half! He apologized for his ignorance and we ran down to Checker to get some ATV High Temp to make a quick seal so I could at least get the bike home and reorder another gasket. It being Easter Sunday I was pretty much screwed on parts availability at this point. The sealant didn't hold after 20 mins of setting, and we ended up strapping her in the bed of his 64 GMC and taking it back home, both of us equal perturbed at our failure.

So, the good news is that the carbs are COMPLETELY clean, fuel/air mix set and ready for a hook up to a sync. The bad news is that in order for her to run, I've got to order another gasket cause of course I tossed the old crappy ones last week (and one of them probably would have worked for a temp fix). I'm gonna call Apache in the morning and find out if I can get one just by itself instead of ordering the kit like I did last time. Hopefully they or someone else in the Valley will have one collecting dust on a shelf somewhere and I can fire it up tomorrow afternoon! Otherwise, it's another 3 day wait for parts arrival

So close.....

 

just for reference, i went and collected a whole buncha information on these bikes and have it hosted on my webserver for all to use (and download, and redistribute, and whatever else for all i care). the URL for it is http://lambethnet.dnsdojo.net/vfr i have the factory shop manual, parts microfiche, and a whole slew of other neat and useful stuff. download this, put it on a USB flash drive, and youll never be without this precious material again.

good luck dude!

 

lazy, your local hydraulic shop will have a #041 o-ring that will seal the bowl for about $1 each

 

When you get back in you'll probably want to turn those pilots out the extra 1/4 turn, that will run you slightly lean.
Unless you live in Cali I would chuck the California emissions stuff also, they'll only restrict your engine.

I think the only way to synch these carbs is to run the idle/pilot adjustment test. I couldn't find any test ports for my Morgan.

 

Chris: I have all of that on the computer, just not on a portable drive. Would have been handy and I'll consider that for future use.

Abner: Thanks for the info... will check on that. Talked to several shops and all said the same thing "Only from Honda, can't get em anywhere else, and only as a kit for $45". I'd rather spend $1 thank you very much!

Dukie: Can't take the Cali emissions canister and hoses off the bike... period. AZ knows it's a Cali bike, and when I bring it in for emissions testing they check to make sure the canister and hoses are intact. Only way around it is to run it through emissions and then remove and cap all the lines and store the canister and lines in a box till next emissions when I have to reassemble the system before going back in. Major fail if I try to run it through without it working.

 

No, you can buy float bowl gaskets only from here

 

Thanks Dukie. Gonna go check out Martin Fluid Power on Broadway in Phoenix. They have #041 O-rings in stock so I'll give that a shot first. Otherwise, Cycle-Re-Cycle looks pretty damn good to me!

 

Are you sure? Unless they have changed it since i moved, the bike is old enough to not have to go thru emission testing? just wondering.....

 

I was told directly by DMV "Only vehicles from 1966 and older don't have to be emissioned in Arizona" -- I'm pretty sure it was '66, it was a ridiculous year and I was like "wtf?"

She did mention that they are trying to pass legislation that will eliminate motorcycles from emissions testing all together, but that it has been stalled in the process for the past 4 years... so don't hold your breath on that one. She said she heard rumors that it may go into effect within the next year or two... but again, just a rumor.

 

<<<<<<>>>>>>>

I think there's one fuse that covers the "parking light" feature, so remove it and you won't need to worry about inadvertantly discharging your battery.

 

I saw that fuse when I removed the fuse cover. I must simply train myself to click one extra to the left and double check the tail light.



I called the place in Phoenix and they do have like 64 of the #041 O-rings that would work in a high temp environment, so I'll head down there in the morning and pick up one to try it out. With any luck (and Lord knows I'm needin some after all this) I'll have her running by noon. If so, I'll post a video of how she runs after all the fixin's.

 

Your my new favorite, Abner! $2.00 for a #041 gasket and the bowl has no leaks. Bike runs better on low end, starts right up but still has some noise on the right side which I'm now thinking may be a valve adjustment issue possibly? Will post video tonight after school. Gotta run!

*edit: now that I thought about it while at school tonight, it's most likely still the carb sync deal, especially since they were just off and back on again.*

Oh, and one more thing... the throttle is really tight, like the butterflies aren't moving freely now. What might I have tightened up on it that would cause that. The cable is exactly the same as it was prior to the last removal of the carb, so I know it's not that. The butterflies did seem a bit more sluggish when I put them back in, but I figured the cable being hooked up would pull em back, but not quite. It did this when I first got the bike too, but it worked itself out after a while. Any ideas???

 

Post Pilot Jet cleaning...

[video=youtube;FIjuEQM05eQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIjuEQM05eQ[/video]

* apologies for the crappy quality, I reassembled the entire carb, box and tank in 40 mins and was in a hurry to grab a video before having to jump in the shower for school, so I grabbed my cell phone and took this one *

As you can see and hear, she fired up on the first shot after I had primed the pump and bowls. Full choke on start up, brought down to zero choke prior to revving it up (to show that she no longer dies on me when I touch the throttle prior to her being above operating temperature). The heavy popping and tapping sound from #4 has pretty much faded out if idled above 1200, but when idled under that it is evident and when I set the idle to 900 and zero'd the choke it died. I'm assuming that's due to them not being sync'd yet. Hey, I was hopeful! LOL

The ONLY thing that wasn't done to the carbs were that I didn't replace the bowl needles or the filters. I did check them all and the filters were in the same exact condition as the new ones. The bowls needles were a bit rounded, but being as I did not order them for the rebuild I did not take care of that. Most likely they will be replaced along with the remaining o-ring seals in the fuel rail crossovers that I didn't pull out since this was a partial rebuild... and that's not gonna happen till I decide to do a top end (after the fall if it can wait that long).

I'll be taking her in to get the carb sync done again sometime soon (have to talk with the instructor in Clinic 5 and see when is a good time to bring it in again) and then it'll be off to emissions testing!

 

TIP for AZ emissions testing ( i failed once) that helped me: bring along a small screwdriver and close your mixture screws about 1/2 turn or 1 turn or more before test since readings are taken at idle speed.

Unless you're lucky or smart, you'll be waiting in a long, slow line. You don't want to be idling all that time, but make sure your engine has been running about 2-3 minutes b4 test so it won't be too cool.

 

I also posted this on my other thread "engine knocking/tapping" but figured this is where it belonged cause it closes out this thread... finally!
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Well, it's time to lay the knocking noise and carb issues to rest! Yay!!!

I've gotten TONS of input from many people over the past week or so, checking this - checking that. Some of which was useful and very insightful, and others that were pretty much reaching based on past experiences with similar motors. A few were warranted enough to try and I did so, but each 'test' produced no result and there wasn't enough consistency to preclude a diagnose. I finally had enough and this morning I pulled her apart... again... for the 4th time. It struck me while I was in the shower the night before that if the throttle plates were moving 1/4" delay from one another that there had to be something missing and that maybe, just maybe there was something that myself and everyone else who has worked on this bike the past 2 months simply overlooked. I was determined to find the problem and so I set to it.

After pulling the seat, tank, air box and carb off, draining the fuel from the bowls and then flipping it over to give it a thorough inspection I noticed something immediately out of place. There was a spring that fell off (literally without force) when I was cleaning it the first time. It was one of the lower sync springs and I found where it went next to the other set that was next to it. I thought nothing of it at the time, and therefore... no other parts laying around and unaccounted for after reassembly I left it at that. BUT... there was the carb sync adjuster screw on the opposing side of the carb, the single unit that controlled the remaining balance of the throttle plates. I peeked underneath of the screw and sure enough, the spring was nowhere to be found. I very easily plucked one of the other lower springs from the main side and headed to the computer to find the part number.

A quick trip to Apache Honda to see about getting a few springs proved futile. Seems that this too (of course) is a limited availability part and that it had to be shipped - not from California - but from JAPAN and that it would take 2-3 days to arrive via air mail for a whopping $5.50... for a 1/2" long spring... yeah, no thanks. I decided to try my luck at a hardware store after having luck with the float bowl gasket earlier this month. Low and behold, I found a pack of 6 springs with the same rate and just a tad longer than the original for $3.50!

I went home, replaced the one and then decided to take a peek at the remaining springs and decided that 24 years had taken it's toll on them so I replaced them with the new ones, trimming off about a full turn from the new springs. They fit perfectly and the throttle plates all moved in unison.

After a few yahoos and hoorays I then proceeded to do a bench sync, turning each in fully and then out 4 turns each. I had cut a 1/2" wide sliver of paper and opened each throttle plate to test it's feel. They were all about equal in drag, so I figured that was a good place to start from. I quickly reassembled the bike - taking care to properly adjust the choke and throttle cables - filled the bowls and then opened the choke wide and hit the start button.....

She fired right up, and hit 2200 rpms right off the bat. I let her warm up to just within normal and dropped the choke. A quick adjustment of the idle screw brought her from a low 700 rpms to 1200 rpms and she maintained that without hesitation and 0% choke. I hit the throttle a tad and she roared like I'd never heard her before - super quick throttle response. This had to be celebrated with a trip around the block!

I backed her out of the driveway and headed toward the main road in the development, started to lean into the turn and hit the throttle a tad. Now normally at this point she'd start to pick up a bit of speed but was always like "OK, if you insist..." but this time she damn near threw me off the back end of the bike! I've taken the back seat cover off the bike mainly for looks cause I wasn't very appreciative of the seat covers function rather than the looks. I immediately turned the bike around and returned to the garage to reinstall the cover. Back at the same turn and the same amount of throttle that I always have used again and my ass was tossed into the butt cushion of the seat cover and the front end damn near lifted off the ground! Can you say "Holy Shit!!!!"

Needless to say, this pretty much told me that she's back to healthy again, and ready for emissions testing. Oh, and for the record: The knocking/tapping noises = GONE, completely and 100% quiet. You can hear the piston travelling up and down, and the slow whir of the gears at the cams, but aside from that she's quiet at the front end now. Shifts beautifully through every gear - up to 6 and back down with no rattling or pinging of any sort. I'm still planning to do a valve adjustment in a few months after I get to work on the V45's in school and know wtf I'm doing 100%, but I don't think that it's much of a major thing right now. And also while I had the bike apart, I pulled the plugs and peeked down through the intakes and the plug holes to see how the piston and cylinder were looking inside... the bottle of Techron concentrate that my instructor recommended over 5 tanks definately did the trick. Theres just a light bit of carbon on the top of the piston and barely any on the valves now, whereas when I first got her it was like viewing stalagmites and stalactites in a cavern. That just made my day that much more!

I'll be taking her down for emissions testing in the morning and then straight to Motor Vehicle to get her permanent tag. Thank God this damn thing is over. 2 1/2 months, and the whole time it was because of 1 tiny little fucking spring, and 2 others that had lost their rate to the point of uselessness. I bet the one spring that was missing had fallen off prior to me even getting the bike!