Weight Distribution

Ya gotta stop using that duck porn in your avatar.

 

She's only interested in the duck's pecker..

Gawd is this thread officially jacked or what?

 

Ha...duck porn...blame Stuka

 

Jacked maybe. A little safer and better informed maybe?

Photo stuff... For aquarium stuff large and small, or shooting through glass, a polarizer helps. Best thing IMO is to use a rubber lens hood and press it directly on the glass to kill the reflections.

Now to eating your fish...

 

You are cool. ; )

 

Did I miss something in the first article that Lint posted? Was there more to it? Or was the end of the article after the picture of Valentino?

If that's all there was, then I think Knight either read too much into it or hasn't had enough seat time and "experimentation" with riding styles, maybe both. I think we all can agree that the best and perhaps the only way to turn a motorcycle is using counter steering. However, those of us with years of seat time, riding schools, track days can also testify that body english also plays a role in how the bike responds on the road/track. As was mentioned, off road riding can also teach you a lot! Just ask, VR, MM, CS, CE, etc...(for those who need translation of the initials maybe go check out the MotoGP website)

Before I get called to the table, yes I have taken riding courses (California Super Bike School and Total Control ARC) in addition to several track days on at least three different tracks, but ultimately my learning of what works and what doesn't is by practicing taught and/or read riding techniques. Although there are many things that look good on paper or contradictory to what we've been taught, it should not be dismissed if the information is coming from someone who has proven themselves in whatever field they are in.

Although Keith Code and his Twist of the Wrist book(s) seem to be taken as the bible of riding techniques, as Gator said, there are other schools of thought out there and have just as much credibility. For the record, in the CSBS they do teach weighing the pegs!

 

I'll chime in here based on my experience and watching top riders since the late 70 s.
It's physically impossible to put your weight on the outside peg and corner the other direction in road riding -- else how did randy mamola ride round corners with his outside leg in the air? All his weight was on the inside of the corner on what? His inside foot with his whole body hanging off. Same with Roberts, spencer, Lawson, doohan until this generation. I read somewhere that Rossi only mastered 500s when he began to use his foot pegs because he never needed to in the lighter classes.

I raced twice in four hour endurance races and won the series production title twice. In the twisties or snakes, my butt was never on the seat. Like a jockey I shifted weight to the inside. You don't think about it, it just gets done naturally. Yes with counter steering -- which we all do naturally even when we were learning to ride. I had the chance to follow top Australian riders such as Malcolm Campbell and Andrew Johnson who were giving the vfr750 its world racing debut and they certainly did not have their weight on their outside peg as or pushing on it.
Last November I followed Aaron slight for 60kms through the the twisties and that's how he rides, bum shift to the inside before the corner and he tips the bike in, head leaning to the inside and weight on the inside peg.

Counter steering became a buzzword in the early 80 s about the time I was racing when code released twist of the wrist which by the way I bought and read. For a while it was my bible.
Look at the top racing riders, they all set up for corners at about entering their respective braking markers to the inside of the bike. They shift their butts in preparation and then counter steer into the corner and where's their weight, on the inside foot on the inside peg. It's not possible to drag the knee if your weight is on the outside peg. How can you balance like that?
I have seen codes video and read his writing on peg weighting. Yes he is right, peg weighting does not initiate steer on the bike but you better have your weight on your inside foot going into the corner because that's the foot you are going to use to push yourself into a change of direction or getting back into position for the tuck down the straight. Code was/ is only emphasizing his point from more than 30 years ago that counter steering is what gets the bike to turn which is perfectly correct.
The only time I will agree that the outside peg needs to be weighted is when cornering is in motocrossing, which I have also done, but that's because the rider needs to find traction and because his inside foot is off the peg stretched out grazing the ground ready to kick them back up if the bike begins to slide.
As they say different strokes for different folks but I'll bet lots more ride this way than the other.

 

Cat, great write up. I've enjoyed our IM correspondences a lot, and you're able to talk the talk extremely well. You were very concise and clearly study this stuff on a high level. You presented concise arguments for standing where you stand on the bike. That said I want to bring you back to the written premise that I slammed: Standing on the inside peg increases lean rate.

1) When you are further inside (not low, but inside), that allows you to lean less. It is one of the primary reasons that you move in, isn't that right? A larger tire patch due to lesser lean. So where is the need to increase the rate of lean for a lesser lean?. The article statement is not just wrong, but it is actually contradictory.

2) You also know this well: Where is the maximum lean rate of the system? When you are standing up, correct? Physically, the fastest the bike can lean is when you are standing up. The moment of inertia determines the possible lean rate, and that doesn't change (fundamentally) by moving left-right. This is a clear indicator that you don't even want to maximize the lean rate (talking capability of the system, not how fast you steer the bar) because that introduces instability. Instead you pick a much more stable position as a trade-off to lean rate.

Where does all of this lead? If you are inside and leaning faster, the causality is you have more weight on your left hand, not from shifting body weight on the peg.

 

I think people are overlooking one very important sentence in this guys article. "Transitions and changes in direction are areas where weight plays a role in motorcycle riding." Cat I understand what your saying about the outside peg, yes while turning the inside peg is loaded not the outside. BUT when you are TRANSITIONING to stand it back up you certainly can weight the outside peg to help the bike stand up. Just like weighting the inside peg can help rotate the bike into a turn. These are very important to the real fast guys and a big reason they work their legs so much. The "jockey position" as you mentioned will make you faster but if your not in shape you will get your ass kicked quickly.

 

I don't even know where or what to reply to all of this........ How about start with LOW and inside? Knight I think if you got a dirt bike and flogged it on a track you would not try to think these things through so much but would garner a lot of info by doing.

 

This is truth. I raced MX for many years and it taught me more than anything else I've done to date.

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

 

Every thing I learmed aboot riding, I learned from old Chinese guys.

 

Traditional: 風向轉變時,有人築牆,有人造風車
Simplified: 风向转变时,有人筑墙,有人造风车
English equivalent: When one door closes another opens.
"When baffled in one direction a man of energy will not despair, but will find another way to his object."


Traditional: 害人之心不可有
Simplified: 害人之心不可有
Do not harbour intentions to hurt others.
Note: This is usually used before 防人之心不可無 (see above)
俗语词典 (dictionary). 商务印书馆 (The comercial press). 1994. p. 301.
English translation: Do not desire to hurt others in the depths of your heart.

My favorite......

商务馆小学生粤谚语歇后语惯用语词典，商务印书馆(The Commercial Press),2010.p.153. ISBN 978-7-100-07153-6.
Jiŭ fā xīn fù zhī yán.
酒发心腹之言。
English equivalent: In wine there is truth.
"Consuming alcohol assists with removing deceit and revealing the truth."
Paczolay, Gyula (1997). European Proverbs in 55 languages. DeProverbio.com. p. 272. ISBN 1-875943-44-7.

 

Agree with you gator. Point is I. Wanted to rebut knights view that you weight the outside peg in a corner. Say you in left hand corner then want to switch right you push off your left foot to move yr bum right and get weight on your right foot and voila you r in position to turn right. And all the while helping your counter steer input to switch the bike right. The key to the action of corner is that while your inside knee is hanging out to feel the degree of lean, your outside knee is clamped to the side of the tank to provide stability and lock yourself to the bike. This helps keep yr arms relaxed through the corner. You right about the jockey position. First year raced I pulled my left hamstring. Next year I prepared three months ahead with running, motocrossing and some weight works. Finished as fresh as a daisy and cut my lap times down by seven seconds.
Knight, physics may be on your side but natural talent and experience is on mine. Lean rate is no longer the buzz word anyway. Edge grip is. That is why current motogp riders throw everything into the inside their inside elbows bent to allow their heads to drop lower and closer to the front tyre to lead the bike round the corner and get as much as 62-63 degree leans. And all the while their weight is on the inside.
In our street riding there's no need for such extremes. I'll just say counter steer into a corner, move yr head lower and a little towards yr inside mirror and use you outside knee to push the tank in the direction you want to go. This works well for me to provide stability on the sweepers. In the twisties not so much as I m paying attention to other things like making sure I stay on my side off the road!

 

射束我、斯科蒂!

"Beam me up,Scotty!

 

Roger that cat. I think once you've rode on the track, twisties and sweepers a lot things that we do riding just are second nature. You don't think about it. When upping the pace I think we think about small things we need to do to go faster, not the basic mechanics.

 

It's also important to notice if the things your doing automatically are the wrong things. Muscle memory can work for you or against you. Develop the right basics.

 

Cat, somehow, inadvertently, in the very tail end you put an exclamation point on my primary argument, for which I am eternally grateful. You feel a disagreement, but ironically your knowledge and technique stated above perfectly align with my prior post. Aren't we simpatico?

Also, to your long aside, I do not, nor never cared what peg you weight in a corner or what style anyone uses. There is absolutely no disagreement on style choice. Countersteering was an illustration of the misconceptions, including the author's, of what causes the lean.


As for the dirt bike? Yes, you can push your bike under instantly via peg pressure, because tires slide out on dirt. That is a completely different mode of steering from the street where the assumption is there is no tire slide. Technically the interjections are fine points, but they are way off-topic when talking about lean rate on the road.

 

I love it when Knight talks dirty.

 

The sub articles in each topic at http://www.sportrider.com/top-5-riding-tips are some of the best explanations I've read. The throttle control is right on the money! When I was racing and for street use I rarely close the throttle all the way. A lot of times I'm modulating the throttle in minute increments to hold or change my line. It has to be done in a fine smooth manner to keep control. Then ROLL the throttle on just before or right at the apex, depending. You need throttle, 10% worth or a tad more to make the corners smooth cause of the gyroscopic effect of the engine is your friend.

I like this explanation, this is the way I ride most of the time. Makes you ready for anything:

Pridmore advises leaving the index and second fingers on the brake lever and using just the third and fourth fingers to apply the throttle. This is an advanced technique, but can significantly reduce the downtime between braking and throttle application.

Braking works the same way in corners and is used in conjunction with throttle control. Like the last topic points out sometimes slower is faster. Why? Because of smoothness. Both brake and throttle are used minutely together for smoothness.

As far as weighting the pegs on the inside or outside I think there is something missing in the explanations I've read. I never had my body weight on the seat at all in the corners. 95% was on the pegs. Reason being I used the pegs as a fulcrum like on a teeter totter. More weight on one side makes that side go down. So most of my weight was on the inside peg.Besides you don't want the weight up high, you want it as low as you can get. This makes the bike itself feel lighter and more flickable. Even though racers look like they are setting on the seat they really are not. At least the good ones.

So it goes to say more weight on the inside peg helps turn the bike in to the corner. Conversely you can apply a little more weight on the outside peg to correct your line ALONG with counter steering. The weight on the pegs are not away to turn a bike as much as it is a method of fine tuning in a turn along WITH other inputs that you choose at the time. This is either on the track or street.

A good rider/racer will use MULTIPLE inputs when taking corners. You may even use different inputs on the same corner on a track depending on speed, track position, lean angle etc. The jist of corner taking is to be smooth, flexible and have big brass ones.

Anymore on the street I basically enter a corner a little slower than most and keep accelerating all the way thru especially on blind corners that you see more of as you go around. Unless I know the corner, surface texture and camber I don't charge corners on the street like I did on the track. It's just to dangerous.

Like the saying goes "There are bold men and old men, but no bold old men".