Arrogant Cop

Check out this source by the institute of transportation engineers:

http://www.ite.org/standards/speed_zoning.pdf

Note this text:

Drivers traveling significantly faster OR slower than this speed
are at a greater risk for being in a crash. It is not high speeds alone that
relate to crash risk;it is the variation of speed within the traffic stream.

When I'm speeding there's barely anyone else on the road so there is no traffic stream for me to disrupt.

However, I am 100% for drunk driving enforcement. When I speed I'm alert and I can't hold a phone anyway on my bike. We all know that speed limits are a one-size-fits-all limit designed for everyone ranging from the inexperienced teenager on his learner's permit to grandmas in cadillacs.

I speed all the time and yet the only accident I was in was way back in high school (1996) and I wasn't even IN the car. Someone backed into the car when it was parked. I take driving seriously and I enjoy it so I find it a fun challenge to ride within my limits and enjoy not just the destination but the ride there as well.

I DO agree that some people are just not very good drivers and that they NEED speed limits and enforcement.

What I really wish is for a reform in the traffic system so that we can earn speeding privileges based on an accident-free record and/or passing certification. Like KC-10 FE said in Germany drivers have to go through a rigorous training system just to get a license. I would love to at least have another classification for licenses. Right now, I have a motorcycle class license but I would like to also have a motorcycle-expert license. So that way if I get pulled over for going 20 over the cop will look at my license and see that I'm a motorcycle-expert class driver and let me on my way.

What do you think of that idea KLRrider, C111, and other fellow police officers?

By the way, I appreciate you all taking the time to debate the various issues with traffic laws and speeding. I would hope that this thread at least shows that the police aren't just arrogant a$$holes out to make people's lives miserable. Do you think what I said will get me out of a speeding ticket if I'm in NC? ha ha!

 

"What I really wish is for a reform in the traffic system so that we can earn speeding privileges based on an accident-free record and/or passing certification... I would love to at least have another classification for licenses. Right now, I have a motorcycle class license but I would like to also have a motorcycle-expert license. So that way if I get pulled over for going 20 over the cop will look at my license and see that I'm a motorcycle-expert class driver and let me on my way."

Speeding privileges? Hmmm... So then, if your driver license included an endorsement which basically says "I am certified to speed and break the traffic rules that are meant for everyone else except for me and those...", would this entitle you to some sort of leniency if you happen to injure or kill another as a result of your 'safe' speeding? Would it leave you with a clear conscious if this happened? Would your insurance underwriter accept such an endorsement?

 

See my thread here on how I do safe spirited riding: http://vfrworld.com/forums/anything-goes/18402-safe-spirited-riding.html

Take note of this quote:
My main stance on speeding is that I don't want to put anyone in any danger just because I want to have some fun. But if there is no one around for me to endanger, I'm redlining it!

And no, this is not a "get out of jail free" card if I end up killing someone I will definitely have a heavy heart about it and deal with it the same way as a "normally" qualified motorist. I'm not asking for immunity from consequences. All I ask is that on empty roads I can go as fast as I want and that I can go with the flow of traffic. The only person even somewhat in danger is me and I'm ok with that.

I don't know how that would work with insurance. There are insurance companies that will still insure a person that got DUIs so I don't see how that could be a problem.

 

MAyBE

pEOple should be allOWed to drive 1 mile-an-hour faSter for every yEar they havE bEen driVing, stARtinG at 18.....

ThAt way, ExperiENce CounTs.......

 

I told myself to avoid this post but....
I applaud your good driving record but that in no way should entitle you to special privileges that others are not afforded. Just because you have had years of accident free driving doesn't mean that it won't catch up to you tomorrow. Being an "expert driver" doesn't mean you can always safely avoid situations that are suddenly thrust upon you. Speed limits are set using a number of factors: traffic volume, type of area (residential/commercial), sight distance just to name a few. These conditions won't change because you are an "expert", therefore the speed limit should always be the same for everyone.
If a roadway (i.e interstate type highway) was designed with a lane specifically for high speed, then I would agree with your desire for a special license class to operate in that lane at high speeds. In the U.S., those roads don't exist, have yet to be designed and I doubt they ever will be.
By the way, I have worked numerous fatal traffic crashes in my career caused by a driver with little or no driving history. The fact that they were safe drivers did not exclude them from making a mistake or having a momentary lapse of good judgement. Like it or not, the laws are in place to protect all of society, and yes, even at times from ourselves.

 

Let's get this out in the open right now. I have never recieved a legit speeding ticket in my life, ever. I have received exactly 3 traffic citations in my life. I beat all 3 in court since all 3 were bogus & written by hypocritical cops who break the law themselves ever single day of the week.

1) I got pulled over on a single lane road for going around a guy turning left. Is this illegal? That depends on who you ask & where you live. In NJ, it is in fact illegal for 2 vehicles to occupy the same lane of travel at the same time. At the intersection in question, the lane gets significantly wider yet it is still a single lane. So now, it is a personal decision whether or not a person would consider this illegal. Adding to this already cloudy issue is, EVERYONE including the cops, goes around left turning vehicle at EVERY intersection in the state of NJ on a constant basis. When I asked the LEO how he could possibly ticket me for something that EVERYONE does on a regular basis, he told me if I give him any more "attitude" (I guess questioning an abuse of authority or a BS offense is "attitude") he would cite me for addtional offenses. When I asked him what offenses, he said he would find something. That right there, IS extorsion. He cited me for "Failure To Yield & Improper Passing" I told him I would see him in court. The next day, I borrowed a video camera, went back to the same intersection & started taping. I managed to get 4 marked units on tape doing the very thing I was cited for. Case dismissed.

2) I got pulled over for no apparent reason. The LEO reads me the riot act about endagering lives. I asked what the offense was & he said he clocked me at better than 80 in a 45. I was not speeding at the time. When I noticed the marked unit, I was coasting down to make a 90 degree right so I know I wasn't speeding. When I asked to see the gun, he said he is under no obligation to show that to me. I told him I would not accept a ticket for 80 in a 45 since I WAS NOT speeding. He could see that I was not taking his particular flavor of BS so he cited me for "Improper Passing". When I looked at the ticket, I noticed the LEO had the wrong street written on it. I kept this info to myself & showed up in court. I told the judge that I was not shown the radar & asked the judge to ask the LEO what road he pulled me over on. He answered with XXXX Road & RT XXX. I then showed the actual ticket. Case dismissed.

3) I got pulled over on RT 295 in Burlington County for speeding. I was in pretty much bumper to bumper yet I get pulled over for speeding? I showed to court & the LEO no-showed. Case dismissed.

KC-10 FE out...
lane: :usa2:

 

I have spent a lot of time in jails talking with inmates and working with the prison systems. Coincidentally, every one of them was wrongfully charged, with evidence falsified and lying cops. You must know them?

for case 1-It's not extortion, it's a threat, and a small one. You do bring up a good point that other officers were doing the same thing. Instead of you taking that video to a local news station or the police department and striving for change and strict adherance to the rules of the road, you used it solely for personally gain to get out of a ticket. The judge should have found you guilty for YOUR illegal action and called the officers to explain THEIRS. Just because the judge is lazy doesn't mean it wasn't a legit ticket. Don't forget to find out where those officers were going at that particular time. I would hate to think they were going to a call to assist somebody.


2-Check your local laws. Does the LAW require him to show you the radar gun? If not, then the burden of proof falls on him to prove with his testimony what you did, and back it up with what ever evidence he brings. He did make a mistake, a clerical error and you were released. Not that you weren't legitimately charged, just lucky.

3-LEO no showed, no idea why and could speculate all day. Doesn't mean you weren't pulled for a legit reason, once again you got lucky.

I have been driving for 19 years, riding motorcycles on and off for over 10 years. I have been pulled over 3 or 4 times in my life, written one ticket and given two warnings. I plead guilty to my charge as I had done what I was charged with, paid my fine and went on with my life. The other times I was read the riot act, then let loose with a warning. So yes, I do break the law, yes I do get pulled over and cited, and yes I do occasionally get a warning. But I implore you to not wantonly disregard the laws that are there for the safety of others. When your luck runs out, I don't want others to suffer for what you consider a special right.

 

I agree on several points. When you drive around, look at the roads you want to do excessive speeds on. Cracking, pot holes, dips, garbage and other problems. US road maintenance is no where near what the Autobahn requires. The autobahn is shut down on weekends, cleared of all travelers, scraped of all foreign debris and then patches and resurfacing done as needed. I have potholes in my city that have been here longer then I have, and there might even be a VW bug stuck in some of them.

I would also love to see good drivers rewarded. I thought that was what Allstate and other insurance companies did. Just giving an ability to start breaking laws is more of a Carte Blanche to break traffic laws. And even though you are operating at a higher speed and disregarding other traffic laws, the rest of society is not. Are they going to have to be trained to move out of your way? How is that officer going to know that you have a special right to go faster, go left around people turning, etc? He won't know until he pulls you over, and by that time you have already been stopped.

Maybe instead of trying to give a miniscule part of the population extra speeding authority, we should spend the money more wisely. Longer drivers training before you get your license, stricter requirements for for people to get and maintaint a license, higher penalties for violations.

Anyways, gonna go write a few tickets before the end of the night.

CYA

 

I believe that a "expert license" would be a bad idea. As another poster pointed out, the variance in the speed of motorists has alot to do with the frequency of accidents. I believe this may pertain to closure rates between vehicles travelling in the same direction. For example, on a curvy road grandma is going 50 in a 55, you are going 75 in a 55. When you round a blind curve, there is gramdma and now we have a problem.
Let's look at a straight level road with infinite visability with the same 2 drivers. From experience with driving patrol cars at high speeds, when a driver is confronted with stimuli that they are unfamilliar with(lights, sirens, fast approach, or a motorcycle going mach1) their behavior is completely unpredictable. They might change lanes, they might pull over to the shoulder, or they might stop in the lane of travel.
How many people ride near the center line? Might it be dificult for another driver to judge which lane you are travelling in. Maybe they just want to get out of your way, and instead move directly into your line of travel.

KC 10 FE
I have to agree with KLRider if reference to his statement about the cops breaking the law in the same way you did. They should have been called to answer for their actions, but that doesn't excuse your act.(see post about jumping off bridges)
In NC we don't have an obligation to show you our radar either. There are many reasons that I might not, maybe in the process of turning and dropping the remote, the unlock button engaged and I lost the lock speed. It doesn't change the fact that you were speeding, or that I as a certified radar operator, operating the instrument correctly and by policy, registered your sped at xx mph.

 

C111, that is true you have some very good points about being able to differentiate the "privileged" speeders among the others. The core issue really is driver education. I would at least like to see a required renewal of the driver's license say every 2 years in which the driver has to go through the test all over again.

The problem I'm seeing with old people is that their reflexes aren't that quick anymore and some of them aren't just quite fit for driving. And vice versa, I have seen teenagers like my cousins who start out good and careful drivers but then degrade into the typical airheaded blonde driver getting into wrecks.

I would hope that least by ensuring everyone at least pays more attention to driving that we can all enjoy higher speed limits. :biggrin:

I don't think I'm going to have much more to add for this discussion but I would like to say that this is pretty cool how you police officers are taking the time to have an open discussion with outlaws like us ha ha! At least this helps me and hopefully others understand that we are ultimately concerned about safety though we may not agree on every thing at least we have a respect for each other. Kudos to you C111, KLRrider, and stellenbrav!

Well I am off for a little ride! :mod: :2guns: :vtr2:

 

Obviously, you guys have never (& probably never will, which is a good thing since NJ sucks) lived in NJ. You have every right to believe that a common citizen like me has any ability to make a change to a law. In all actuality, that is so far out of the scope of reality, I don't think I can find words to describe how dillusional it really is. If you honestly believe this is possible, I truely believe you live in some fantasy reality that doesn't quite exist anywhere else. I could have very well sent the tape to a news source. Wouldn't that result in additional negative publicity toward LEO's? I chose not to do this for that very reason. So how is it I was only serving myself?

This is directed to KLR mostly.

#1 Yes, it is extorsion. I don't agree so he will charge me further? That is an abuse of authority. How could it be called anything else?

#2 How on earth can you say, "Not that you weren't legitimately charged, just lucky"? The speed limit on the road in question was 45. I said I was coasting down to make a hard 90 right turn at a red-lighted intersection. You automatically assume the citizen is a complete liar & a danger to all that is wholesome & good in the USofA. How can ANY LEO possibly look a person in the eye and say they were going better than 80 in a 45 at the location in question? My single biggest problem with traffic LEO's is that they are above the law. I know you will never agree with this, but it is true. I 1000000% guarantee every single person on this board has seen traffic units speeding like maniacs just to grab a cup of coffee at Wawa. I see it every single day of the week since the Pemberton Township cops hang out at the Wawa 1 mile from my house since it is the half way point of the Pemberton jurisdiction. Since I know for a fact the officer that day thinks I'm a lying scumbag, how or why should I respect he or anything he says? I only listen to him because he can arrest me, not because I respect him in any way shape or form.

#3 I WAS NOT pulled over for a legitmate reason. I know LEO's are not able to grasp the concept of "Flow Of Traffic", but it is a very real thing. I triple dog dare you to TRY & do the speed limit on I295 in Burlington County, NJ. You will be run over with the quickness. If EVERY SINGLE VEHICLE on the roadway is doing the same speed, why was I targeted? It's because I was on a sport bike. If the officer would have said that, I would honestly not have a problem with it since I would have appreciated his honesty.


I know you will disagree with everything I say just because you can & that's your right. Instead of LEO's automatically treating people like scum just because they are on vehicle type ________, why can't they give the citizens who pay their paycheck the benefit of the doubt? The point about the officer not being required to show the radar is complete crap. It then becomes a matter of his word against mine. I said I didn't, he said I did. I KNOW I wasn't speeding, so now, I think Officer XXXX of Eastampton Township, NJ is a piece of crap since he called me a liar & refused to prove that I wasn't. The fact that he was too stupid to write the correct location on the citation further causes me to dislike this assclown.

The fact remains, whether you agree with me or not, you can rest assured that most people dislike traffic LEO's whether they admit it publically or not. At least I have the backbone to admit I do dislike them. The fact that it is a law in some places LEO's aren't required to show the accused the gun is total crap. You want to say I was speeding resulting in a fine & increased insurance, etc, prove it or shut it. Then again, I guess that's what the courts are for.

KC-10 FE out...
lane: :usa2:

 

I would love to sit here and get into an argument over right and wrong with you KC-10, but I believe that you have a very askew view of legal and not. just because others do it does not make it right, it makes them wrong too. I work in a department that is VERY big on personal responsibility for actions. If a citizen calls and complains that somebody is speeding down the road in car XXX, they find out why. They ask you what you were doing, where you were going, and if you have a poor answer, you get hammered. And in some cases, even have been issued tickets.

In addition, your flagrant disrespect for the law and other motorists is more disheartening due to your claim of being a MSF instructor and a USAF sport bike coach. How can you in ANY good conscious teach these young kids how to ride following the laws of NJ and the US, when you flat out refuse to follow them yourself. That would be the definition of a hypocrit.

I believe that there is no wheres near enough motorcyclist education being provided. Both for the people riding, the people driving cars and the officers who enforce the laws. And FYI, the majority of the police officers I work with are also riders and have flat out stated that they will not write tickets to bikers unless they are doing something unsafe or outright dangerous.
If you believe that officers are illegally targeting you, writing you false tickets and singling you out because you're on a sport bike, then go to their command staff and make them explain it to you. I encourage to speed through NC and let one of my many State Trooper friends properly instruct you on how to get charged with speeding.

ANyways, i'm going back to my fantasy reality wher one person's vote counts and people can make a difference. Anybody want to join?

 

KC-10 FE is not encouraging the students to scream down school zones. Check out a thread I started on what constitutes safe spirited riding: http://vfrworld.com/forums/anything-goes/18402-safe-spirited-riding.html

Scroll down to post #13 or if you're lazy click on this link: http://vfrworld.com/forums/anything-goes/18402-safe-spirited-riding.html#post127674

He's got this quote: I know from observation, most riders simply pin the wrist & fly by the car at warp factor 5. Tell you what, this is a FANTASTIC way to get cagers to hate you. This is right up there with wheelies between cars on the hi-way.

While I know the speed limit is the law, once you gain enough experience you can easily ride over the speed limit SAFELY. That's a real gray area you get into though. How do you determine someone has the experience and the smarts to go over the speed limit? On some of my favorite routes there are warnings signs to go 25 mph because of the tight curves but I've gone as fast at 70 mph. Mind you, I am doing this within my abilities and I still have room for the unexpected like oil, gravel, other cars on the road.

That's why I was throwing out the idea of having an expert license.

Anyway, back to subject, KC-10 and me and many other motorcyclists have the stance that as long as there isn't traffic around to endanger AND that you ride within your limits it's safe to go faster. I know that the LEO don't agree with that and the battle wages... :vader:

 

Just for the record.... I lived in Hamilton Township NJ for 6 years. My brother happens to still be a Lt. in the Trenton PD. I am very familliar with NJ traffic(as a civillian, not an officer). Please do not assume that we are all simple hick cops with no life experience just because we choose to reside in the south. I've also lived and driven in several foreign countries.

This has been an interesting discussion, but I believe we have come to a stand still. The point/counterpoint seemed productive at 1st, but the points have now become repetitive.

Hopefully anyone who read this and was on the fence, will have a bit more information on which to base their views. Those who either favor or hate law enforcement are not going to be swayed by a post on the internet.

I just received information that one of our local LEO's died this morning. It makes you think how silly these arguments are in the scope of things. I have more important things to take care of right now than this thread, so I probably will not be posting again any time soon.

Regardless of your feelings for cops, If you pray, I'm sure his family could use the prayers.

You folks stay safe, and God bless.

 

My two cents: To preface this, the longest I have ever gone without a citation is seven years, and there have been occasions where I have received two in one week. Most of my tickets have been for minor speeding on motorcycles. There have been at least three that were... suspicious, and one that was an outright lie. The rest of them were completely legit, although it pains me to admit it. Just kidding, it doesn't pain me to admit it at all. In every case, I was speeding. The circumstances were dangerous only to myself and my vehicle, but I was violating the statute. And as I mentioned earlier, most of the citing officers were fine. The others were upset about something in their lives.

For the last two out of three tickets, I have been eligible for traffic school, so I took the online version. Now to my real point here: Throughout the entire text in damn near every "chapter" that you need to read through, you are warned about all of the "poor drivers" and the "aggressive drivers", and how you need to look out for them. Huh? I need to look out for them? What kind of crap is that? From my simple view of the universe, how about they don't get licenses to begin with, or have them revoked, until they can demonstrate a modicum of vehicle control, good judgment and a civil attitude?

So from my point of view, albeit somewhat idealistic, the majority of the problem is NOT the people who are motor enthusiasts, who strive to improve their driving skills, which would include most motorcyclists. The problem is the drivers with either very poor skills, very poor judgment, or very bad attitudes.

One possible solution? Make a driver's license harder to obtain. Have a driving simulator that will show a person's physiological profile. I am not talking about beating it to death, just a go/no-go screening of sorts.

If we are going to let people drive around in 3500 pound explosive devices, we should make darn sure that they are qualified to do so. When I look at how some people drive, I ask myself, "Would I trust this person with a live hand grenade?" Most of the time, the answer is "No".

I may have strayed from the original context of this thread somewhat, but I feel better now.

 

To C111. I am truely sorry for your loss. As a military member who has had the misfortune of losing one of the best friends I ever had (see my sig), I know the feeling of losing a comrade. I've also had the dubious honor or priviledge of transporting flag draped coffins, so please don't asume I'm some ruthless cop hating asshole. I only hate stupid people & people who don't use common sense. If I see a cop doing 85 in a 65 on RT295, how on earth can I believe that cop cares about his job or the oath he swore to uphold? If you are a cop, you need to be in compliance to the law 24/7.

I never once implied or thought that you guys were "simple hick cops" & I ask you to show me where or when I typed this. As a general rule, I have far more respect for southern cops since I was a next door neighbor to the deputy sheriff of Sumter County, SC for 18 months. He was a great guy & I learned a great deal from him. I said you never lived in NJ because if you had, you would know how far beyond screwed up the laws & corruption is in this state. If you say you lived in Hamilton, you should know what I'm talking about.



This is to KLR. I want you to show me a single solitary post, where I said at any time that I flagrantly disregard the law or other motorists. I'll wait... It's very simple, you can't, so don't try. All I said is following the flow of traffic is a complete necessity in bumper to bumper traffic. I understand that it is not possible for you to comprehend this but it is reality.

I know this will require a long hard look at yourself, but look back & re-read what you've typed. This is EXACTLY why most motorists hate traffic LEO's. You have an incredible holier-than-thou attitude about you simply because a lowly citizen dares to disagree with you. I would absolutely love to get into politics just so I could attempt to change some of that BS. Instead of having LEO's aggressively targeting people who do 5 MPH over a speed limit set in the 1960's, why not reduce the traffic units to a bare minimum & place the remaining officers in detective units or border control or drug units? I'll be so bold as to offer an answer to this, it's because the departments would lose their primary source of income.

I like NC. I've been there at least 15 times, 7 of those times on my bikes. The only reason I didn't go this year is because I'm trying to erase all my debt. As soon as I have no debt other than house & vehicle payments, my twice yearly trips will resume. I've had exactly one encounter with NC cops. It was on the BRPW. He was completely cordial & basically all we did was talk & he asked to sit on my bike. He never even asked to see my credentials. Why was I pulled over you ask? Speeding & I admit it freely. Was I going warp factor 5? No. I was probably doing 10 over. I never look at my speedo in the twisties so I honestly don't know how fast I was going. Looking back, I was wondering why a State Trooper was in a National Park?

KC-10 FE out...
lane: :usa2:

 

C111 I also send my prayers to his family and your department. Having worn a badge, I know all too well how this effects everyone involved. An officer who dies in the line of duty is to be remembered as equal to the soldier that dies in battle.

 

When i intiated this thread i didn't realise what a can of worms i was opening, probably because i am a relatively new member, however what comes across from the threads, is that things seem very similar in America to what they are here in the UK, and that is some of the police are brilliant and some like the one i met are assholes. What the police don't seem to realise is that most people are very law abiding and so the only time they come into contact with the police is on the road, so if they get a bad police officer it tends to poison your mind and you forget all the good work they do in other areas.

Getting back to the original point which really was harrassment, i can tell you some of the things we have to put up with in our area, as well as these road blocks we have officers literaly jumping out of hedges with cameras in their hands and lots of fixed cameras. The latest problem is they are now using unmarked bikes (Fireblades, VFR's and BMW GS) these bikes are all painted black and the officers who ride them do not wear uniform but dress in leathers so look like any other rider, the technique they use is to cruise up the road and wait for someone to pass them, then they've got you if you go above the speed limit, which everybody normally does.

I don't personally blame the police, all these tricks are orchesrated by this head case of a chief constable in North Wales he even wanted to stop bikers riding in the national parks of a week end.

Safe riding Plasma

 

Here at the Illinois/Iowa border with several towns along the Mississippi river, it really depends. There are some Illinois state troopers that ride, they are very lenient on us. Bettendorf (Iowa), Davenport (Iowa), and Moline (IL) usually are beyond strict. Moline is to the point where I have had to call the moline dispatch office to send an officer to trigger the red light. Got a ticket one night, waiting for a red light, by 3 officers that night. Case was dismissed. But, they have always harrased just about anyone. Some of the small city cops are border-line, depends on the mood of the day. There are the officers that don't know the laws of the road for motorcycles, just get them for speeding. There are a lot of squids around here, as there are everywhere. The Quad Cities as we are called, holds the first, longest and only bi-state motor cycle safety awareness ride (at least that I know of). Some of the towns that we go through demand money, which takes away from the charity that we give to. That just sets the mood for most of the officers - at least those that do not ride. I've been pulled over before for not speeding, just going from 35 to 55 too fast, passing a car - in a 55 zone. Never got a ticket, just the fact that I got pulled over and read the riot act. We here don't have safety inspections for them to pull us over, and have always avoided the DUI checks.

 

This thread is like a cop wank zone, reading all the "thanks" from members to each other. I think KC-10FE is right, even some of the LEO's attitude in this thread should be enough to get you to realize why you are so intensely disliked by so many.