Weight Distribution

Discussion in 'Racing & Track Days' started by Lint, Jul 7, 2016.

  1. Knight

    Knight New Member

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    I read that recently! The mid-corner corrections is very very helpful stuff, on a downright scary issue.
     
  2. Gator

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    In the video you say at speed that the riders weight does nothing. It does nothing because of changing weight placement ( torso weight) and balance. While in a turn that you started using your bars you can change your line with just you weighting pegs and not changing bar input. Smaller bikes like say a Ninja 300 its easier to do. I don't think the writer of the article is giving bad advice like you said. But then again I don't adhere to Codes methods as much as others. I like corner speed and trail braking. Some like point and shoot. As far as cred goes there are teenage riders that have unbelievable skills and 30+ years riders that just suck. Try dirt riding or track riding in the rain. Both are great equalizers and teachers.
     
  3. Gator

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    I think the biggest thing on mid corner corrections is not to panic. Abrupt inputs from bars, brakes or your body leads to more problems and more mistakes that can very quickly snowball into a crash. If I'm to tight in a turn I like to steer with throttle, give it more gas and you will start to run wider. If I'm to wide I try to trail brake a little longer and blow the apex but make up time with a heaver throttle on exit as the bike will probably be more upright. But on too wide and you are to far gone from being able to trail brake and your at max lean you will probably have to stand it up...... and clean your leathers. lol Knowing where the limits are is a great riding skill and why I say that a few weeks at the track is worth more than decades of street riding. The skills you learn at the track will make you a vastly better street rider, slow you down on the street and save you some tickets too.
     
  4. Knight

    Knight New Member

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    Your weight is on one peg or the other and that is unaffected by where your body is on the bike. The physics model would be

    x%(weight) on left peg + y%(weight) on right peg = total weight.

    Note that body position is not in this equation. And the pegs (or seat but assuming you're off the seat here) are the only place your weight falls and affects the bike.

    Body position does lots of other things that you know that I don't. Hanging off you create a pressure front, create lift, like an airplane wing, and yep, that makes the bike turn more. That has nothing to do with weight though, so let's be straight.

    Note he said "lean faster" meaning the primarily lean. So I won't dispute anything past that. You are fully leaned. Can you move the bike up or down from there with the pegs? I am not sure. It seems to me if you take your weight off the outside, all your weight goes straight down, and you lowside. So technically yes, but this case makes no practical sense.
     
  5. Knight

    Knight New Member

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    This is great, I'll save this! But I have to practice this many many many times because the problem is new turns seen for the first time. If I cannot do this by second nature when it crops up on a brand new turn, poof I'm dead.
     
  6. Gator

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    It makes no sense to you because your going off theory and not experience. TRY it. It works.
     
  7. Gator

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    Knight, take some track day courses at Mid Ohio. I have done track days there and with the layout there you will get a bit of everything. Listen and try what the instructors say and try not to think about why the physics or whatever is going on. The blind corners will get your attention while in triple digits! Get it wrong and you will mow the grass. Ask me how I know.lol
     
  8. Knight

    Knight New Member

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    There is no disputing where the weight sits on two distinct pegs, and the XYZ direction the weight can have an effect. Moving around inevitably is affecting the bars. It does work, I agree, for this reason. I can sit still and apply bar pressure just the same.

    Thank you as this just generated one more invention for the invention book that i'll never get to: Force detection pad for the grips. No doubt Keith will want this too. You would say you did not force the bars. My device (which will be programmed to make me right no matter what happens) will blink red and go beep beep beep, demonstrating that you did in fact put pressure on the bars, but attributed it to body movement. Fair enough? (Well not my cheating part.)
     
  9. Knight

    Knight New Member

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    One 5th gen that is immaculate, on the track, no no no. Maybe some day under other conditions. I do know that track is a good idea otherwise.
     
  10. V4toTour

    V4toTour New Member

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    Knight, the author who you claim is giving bad advice, is a road racer who has been sponsored in AMA events at places like Laguna Seca.

    He isn't arguing for weight distribution as the primary means of steering the bike, I don't read that anywhere in the article like you claim. He isn't trying to debunk counter steering.

    Article from the same guy: http://www.sportrider.com/sportbike-riding/pressuring-pegs-motorcycle-riding-tip

    Performance riding demands that you not be complacent, yet it is easy for the lower half of your body to become lazy or for you to rely too much on the muscles in your torso. Your legs become an important part of the steering equation as the pace picks up, and by standing on the pegs more aggressively you can assist your upper body in direction changes. The end objective is to keep from putting too much input into the clip-ons, as this can load the suspension or adversely affect the bike’s chassis over bumps. Steering inputs at the entrance of the corner are made primarily through countersteering techniques—a method for initiating a turn by a momentary turn of the front wheel in the opposite direction—but as you approach your turn-in point, try adding weight to the inside footrest by driving the ball of your foot into the knurled edge of the peg. This increased pressure will help the bike roll over its roll axis, ultimately reducing the time it takes to add lean. Moreover, it reduces the effort required by your arms and upper body.

    Throwing weight around is an AID to counter steering. On Code's bike, the front is allowed to track freely. If you watch someone squirm around you'll notice the bike actually starts to initiate a subtle countersteer before it rights itself without any inputs on the bar that's attached to the forks.

    I take the author's main point to be getting weight shifted to the inside peg aids in speeding up the lean, not that it's the primary method of steering input. More importantly, by loading the legs in the corner you are taking pressure off the hands as a means of support which means you won't be making exaggerated corrections mid corner, aka finer control of the bike.
     
  11. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    Sure,just as soon as he stops posting up shit that is going to hurt somebody. All that about Code is out of a vid or a book. Fuck him. Most of his practical experience is from sittin on the bike on the centerstand, pumping the levers and doing the Vroom-Vroom Boogie.

    The dude is a prick man, get a fucking clue.
     
  12. RVFR

    RVFR Member

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    Yep yep and yep, did I second this too? Yep. Ok, yes I was going to say everyone is different that's it, thing is to know what works for you. (why I want the linked brakes off this bike, I know what works for me)
    The only way to do this more or less right is get your butt on a track. Do 200 miles on a track over the weekend then start talking to me. The well doh! track and street are way different. and if you think you know what your doing is great, just keep an open mind as the time you stop learning and applying, your dead, finished, boxed up.

    The thing with the peg weight transfer for me ain't so much physical weight, but a muscle move by doing this you get your legs into it. steering the bike where you want to go with your legs hugging the tank, yes a pressure on the pegs assists this, not so sure there's a lot of movement here. Just try this going down the street at a moderate pace, hopefully on a non busy road, cops tend to frown on this. ;) and just apply pressure on one peg then the other even at slow speeds it's noticeable, then the other thing is to be smooth too. Smooth is where it is really at. A nice tuck keeping lose helps, as well as counter steering when needed, and of all things, Breath.
     
  13. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    Thanks but I'm more than able to supply my own supporter. Can I send you some itching powder for Knights minithong? I would venture that if Knight showed up at any of the functions save a cat breeding, he'd get sent packing.
     
  14. Gator

    Gator Insider

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    Well put V4. I may not have been communicating what I wanted to. That pretty much summed it up.
     
  15. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    GMan should be more careful of who he is dealing with. Knight could spank him and put him on ignore.. LOL
     
  16. Lint

    Lint Member

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    My reason for posting the article is based solely on what I have found works for me. I agree with this article. I only have about 80 miles trackday experience at Chuckwala last year, but it was under the tutelage of Aussie Dave Anthony. I left that having increased my times around the track by about 10 seconds.

    Last time I rode was with Big_Panda it was just a mellow 60% ride. I did however eventually remember about putting pressure on the pegs. I do countersteer, have since I started riding in 1989 when I was told about it from a guy who has ridden extensively with Keith Code. I thought the guy was Nucking Futs when he told me about it. But, I hesitantly tried it and found it worked.

    Since then, I have attended a seminar put on by Reg Pridmore, as he lives near me. I have his book personally autographed by him. He teaches using your body to steer the bike. I tend to not totally trust in this, as to a degree I feel body motion does affect the bars, ergo, countersteering. That said however, I learned a long time ago that I can sit upright on my bikes, and move my legs up and down and it does indeed affect my trajectory; some of what Reg says has merit. Some of what Keith says has merit too. The argument always seems to devolve into absolutes, when that is impossible in something as dynamic as riding a motorcycle. Roughly 2500 things happening at once when you ride, or so I've recently read. Absolutes are absolutely impossible.

    When I was riding Mulholland and Decker Canyons, I went from strictly using mostly bad body positioning, as I was still nervous from my off when someone poured oil on the road, to relaxing and sliding aft on the seat and putting my weight on the pegs. For me this accomplished to following: It gave me additional weight on the pegs to assist with countersteering. I raised my pressure off of the seat and put it into my largest muscle group and took the pressure off of the handlebars. The end phenomenon that I experienced from this? My turns were executed with much greater ease, with much much better body position and with greater and finer control of the steering. This increased my speed around the turns, whilst allowing me to have much finer control and a much greater safety margin.

    So to sum all that up, by sliding back on the seat, I opened up the "cockpit" and gave myself much more room to move around, as well as lowering the center of gravity. I also found that steering was substantially easier and my transitions from left to right/right to left were effortless and much quicker, with what felt like a lot less stress on the bike from poor rider input. Additionally, it allowed me to have my outside knee into the tank for bracing when trailbraking into turns as well as assisting with leaning the bike down if the turn was decreasing radius. My riding went from struggle and doubt to enjoyment and greater control. Even though my pace was faster, I was able to have greater control in braking mid turn if there was a car around the bend, which there were at times. I attribute this to the fact that my body was in a much better position and since my inside foot was naturally pointed in the direction I was traveling and my outside knee was locked into the tank, braking had little effect in moving my body out of position and I was able to go onto the brakes with confidence.

    This is all what I found, and I actually found this article after the ride and it backed up what I had discovered/remembered from my training with David Anthony. What works for you may be completely different than what works for me and you're still right. I found something that made a profound difference in my riding and I wanted to share it with our community.
     
  17. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    Actually there are 2502 things happening. Knight taking a dump on a shitload of posts and the dude who has to clean up afterward.
     
  18. Lint

    Lint Member

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    Okay, well. Apparently there is a lot of tension in this thread and with BB.

    Remember everyone, as stated above, there are no absolutes and everyone is entitled to their opinion. There's enough hate on the world already, let's not be assholes to each other. A closed mind is as effective as a closed parachute
     
  19. duccmann

    duccmann Member

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    What the hell happened here? Too much testosterone goin on hyar
    As they say in UT.......
    OH MY HECK
     
  20. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    Does this mean 2+2=4 is oot the window? If anyone has an interest in Knight's asshole, that should be on a separate thread IMO.

    The term hate gets tossed around sometimes too much. Hate is one of those absolutes that does exist.

    Great analogy but a little flakey. A closed mind can be opened; a closed chute is a one time thing. Best bet? Have a reserve and pack your own.
     
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