Is the stator wiring really suspect?

Discussion in '6th Generation 2002-2013' started by dennisgb, Nov 4, 2016.

  1. dennisgb

    dennisgb New Member

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    Sorry to start a new thread for this but afraid it will get lost in the shuffle.

    In reading through the many threads on charging system problems there are numerous comments about the stator wiring being too small or weak. I'm wondering if this is really the case. On the CBR's that I have had charging issues with, what usually happens is the R/R shorts internally, then takes out the wiring and the stator. That's the worse case situation, sometimes the R/R just fails and replacing it resolves the problem.

    If the stator checks out okay, why wouldn't a Mosfet Rectifier and beefed up wiring be sufficient? The perceived fragile nature of the stator seems wrong to me, because if the stator is functioning when a short occurs up the line it has no choice but to fail because it continues to put out power.

    Am I wrong about this?
     
  2. Jeff_Barrett

    Jeff_Barrett Member

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    The blade connectors on the stator wires are shitty. Not enough contact and they oxidize easily which increases the resistance and causes most of the issues we see.

    You're not wrong either though, the stator can be the cause too.
     
  3. RVFR

    RVFR Member

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    My take is somewhat like Jeffs. The connectors Honda uses isn't the best. Now add some water dirt/&dust as well as road grime from a good long ride in the wet, now add it's location it gets pretty much ignored. It looked like Hondas fix was to move it from out back to the front on the 6th gens. Thinking the cooler is better as in most cases it is. but they didn't address the connections. The wires IMO are fine, some like bigger is better ok.. but for the most part it's not the wire size. Now in some case folks like to add more electrical load , hence maybe the up grade to a larger wire could help. But back to the RR, once corrosion sets in the connectors, the RR has to work harder, and if it's not addressed asap it just snow balls till it creates to much of a load for the RR to handle. Case in point I've been running these VFRs for a while now since they came out in 84. Me I'm not one that looks to ride in the wet now, if it finds me ok. but I can tell you if water stays away from the connections and all this includes a good dose from washing as well the problem isn't near a problem. I've seem 60K on these still going strong. Now I'll add I've had my fare share of these go bad too. but that was back when it wasn't a known problem and I rode every where in a lot of so called any questionable conditions LOL similar to AMs riding now SMH. So when I look back I laugh. Should the bike be able to handle the elements better? Oh hell yes!, but now I know what's what.
     
  4. dennisgb

    dennisgb New Member

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    Hmmm, I'm really struggling with this. Are the connectors really shitty? If they were clean and some di-electric grease applied why wouldn't that be acceptable. Usually connectors are large enough (bigger than the wires) to carry the amps. The wires themselves may not be tho. When we talk about water and dirt being a problem then the connectors need to be protected in my opinion. Maybe shrink wrapped also. I haven't gotten in there yet to look at what's there, but still seems that there should be preventive measures that can be taken.

    One additional thought about the R/R's. The Honda Rectifiers shunt to ground. That is why they run hot. They fail on their own because of this in my experience. Dirty and corroded wires may contribute in some cases but the Honda Rectifiers are just a bad design. This is usually the heart of the problem and all the burnt wiring, connectors and stators are the result of rectifier failures. Again corrosion in the connections will make it worse and/or create other issues but most of my experience points directly to the rectifiers being the problem.
     
  5. RVFR

    RVFR Member

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    That's a yes and probably. Though you be the judge. I work in the water pump industry which has it I see a lot of electrical connections of all types, these here look like they belong under the dash of a car, not out where the elements can get to em. Now mind you the 5th gens are in a boot, probably the same method used on the 6th gens, Hondas thinking that's all that's needed to protect them, IDK seems short sided to me, when I've seen better connectors that are for the most part water proof. if and when mine looks like its' starting to have the slightest hint of trouble, they are getting changed out, but as they are now they look new so?? time will tell. 35k on this VFR and all is good, but Murphy has been known to pop up unexpected. On a side note, I've been told I'm a clean freak ;) wd 40 is my friend under the seat.
     
  6. dennisgb

    dennisgb New Member

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    This is interesting. Like I said I haven't been in there yet, but I did inspect the connector at the relay and main fuse and was a bit shocked that it is just a push connector without any protection...like you say it looks like it should be under the dash of a car. On my CBR's the critical connectors are o-ringed or inside boots. Pretty crappy cost cutting. The one thing is if we know there is a problem we can do something about it. The problem comes when you don't know and expect things to be right...and then you are surprised out in the wilderness on a dark night and your cell phone battery is dead.
     
  7. H3nry

    H3nry New Member

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    Let me chime in with my experience. I bought a 12 year old VFR with 3500 miles on it which had never been ridden in the rain. It had burnt the 3-pin connector from stator to R/R. That connector also burnt out on my VF750 at about 32,000 miles, though it HAD been ridden in wet weather. My opinion - the connector is a poor choice. It has marginal current capacity, though there are connectors which look almost the same made of heavier brass and properly plated which carry double the current reliably. The stator wires are also marginal - they feel warm if you hold them in your hand and rev the engine, but they are well enough cooled not to be a fire danger. I haven't replaced them. The regulator runs too hot to last very long. Replace it with an FET type with a larger heat sink. I have a 50-amp MOSFET unit for Suzukis on my bikes and so far, so good (3 years now). The stator also runs hotter than it should, but there is adequate air flow around the engine case of the Magna, and the 5th gen and earlier VFR has (barely) enough oil spray on the stator for cooling. According to some posts here and the other web site, VTEC VFRs have an oil line which blocks oil spray to part of the stator, and I have noticed that a lot of the burnt stators are 2002 and later bikes, and are usually toasted on 1/3 and the rest looks relatively OK.

    So my take away is either eliminate (Solder) the 3-pin stator connector or replace it with something water proof rated at at least 50 amps. Run heavy wires direct from the new MOSFET R/R to the battery with a 30-amp fuse in a heavy duty holder. Cut off the "diagnostic connector", ground connector, or whatever you call it and solder all the ground wires together and run a big wire from the clump to a solid chassis ground. Waterproof the big soldered lump. That should leave you with just normal problems like dirty switch gear, burnt out bulbs, dead battery, etc. to deal with. Hopefully nothing mysterious and untraceable in the dark 84 miles from Winnemucca, NV.
     
  8. NormK

    NormK New Member

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    The easy simple fix as we all know here is chop the connector out and solder and heatshrink the wires, all too simple. And if you really want to know about the charging system on these Randy has just posted a new topic that has been sorted out here some years ago so that people with charging problems can easily find it. Look under the topic "The Drill" all you need to know is in there
     
  9. dennisgb

    dennisgb New Member

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    Yes, I was trying to take away from "The Drill" to discuss whether the stator itself is a problem if the rest of the charging system is upgraded because many of the threads talk about a weakness in the stator itself. My take on it having experience with other Honda's is that the rectifier is the real problem and the rest is just coming along for the ride. A burned out rectifier will take out the stator and the wiring in short order. Point is, suspecting everything may not necessarily be correct. That was the point of this thread. Is the stator a weak point in the charging system?
     
  10. dennisgb

    dennisgb New Member

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    Very good real world info. Thank you.

    Is the current capacity of the connector really marginal or is it the "open" style connector that is the problem? On ATV's they use o-ring sealed connectors for everything because of the potentially wet environment. What if these connectors were sealed? Would they fail then?

    Most connectors themselves are larger than the wires going into them. They should be able to carry more current than the wires. It seems if they were sealed they would have less chance of failing...unless...the rectifier burns out and takes the whole system to ground and the stator keeps pumping away until it all burns up.
     
  11. RVFR

    RVFR Member

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    there's not a cut and dry answer for me because I can only go by whats happen to me, that's not saying it's not a problem, just hasn't got me "knock on wood" More a case from my experience the Trickle down effect, as you noted once one bit goes south the snow ball starts rolling. yea the wires get warm but it's all about whats going on in the first place. I will agree the stock RR is weak in heat transfer capability, I change it just for that the heaver mosfet is better. IMO. In all that I don't believe the stator is a weak point.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2016
  12. NormK

    NormK New Member

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    From all the info we have gathered here I would say the stator is not the weak point, they get screwed up and burnt out when the connector gets hot, melts and the wires in the connector touch each other and the stator is fried. The majority of the cause is Honda using a non sealed PLASTIC connector that can melt . If the connector was sealed didn't melt then 80% of the failures would not occur, you would only get the odd failure because things do wear out with time
     
  13. dennisgb

    dennisgb New Member

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    I'm starting to think the same thing. My original thinking that the rectifier is the main culprit could be somewhat wrong. More reading and research and understanding that bad connections could cause the rectifier to overheat. A failing battery could also cause the charging system to work too hard trying to charge the battery and thus cause system overheating. How many times does this happen to us...I've had batteries go bad on a number of bikes. The Honda rectifier isn't the best design, so it still makes sense to replace it.

    When I was testing my charging system the other day, I inspected the wires going into the relay by the battery. They were hot. Not burning hot but hot enough to notice. The bike had only been running for a few minutes. This seemed odd to me. I haven't done a full wiring inspection because I just got the bike but it will be an interesting adventure with the knowledge you all have shared.
     
  14. H3nry

    H3nry New Member

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    "Is the current capacity of the connector really marginal or is it the "open" style connector that is the problem? On ATV's they use o-ring sealed connectors for everything because of the potentially wet environment. What if these connectors were sealed? Would they fail then?"

    My guess is the weak point is the crimped joint between wire and connector blade, at least as far as oxidation is concerned. It's copper to tin plate, and copper does oxidize. If you replace the connector, solder as well as crimp the new connector to the wire to keep air and water out of that joint. The replacement R/R I used came with a very similar 3-pin plug and socket set, but made of thicker brass nickel plated and gold flashed. It should be less oxidation prone. However, I used a sealed 50-amp connector like those recommended in "The Drill" thread.
     
  15. Jabba

    Jabba New Member

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    I had huge issues with my electrics ...
    The bike died just out sight of home (after a three day 1200km ride)
    The wiring loom shorted just behind the left front indicator (bike shop said it had been routed incorrectly although all other 6th gens I have checked were the same)
    Since then the bike has burnt out two stators .. in quick succession so obviously the connectors were not the problem replaced the RR as well
    Finally got it sorted with A shingen RR kit http://www.roadstercycle.com/ after replacing some dubious (read heat damaged) wires under the battery.
    BTW I have now helped other VFR riders and can change a stator in about 1 hour LOL
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2016
  16. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    This is the first article so far as I know published on the WWW about an actual fix for this never ending problem on a site predating VFRworld and that other one the pizza guy runs.


    http://www.one-ring.net/vfrfaq/reg-rect.html
     
  17. dennisgb

    dennisgb New Member

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    I found that same post yesterday. If you keep searching "Rectifier Cooling Fan" you find that this doesn't work. The fans burn out because there isn't enough cool air in the space where they are mounted. One guy cut a hole in the shroud after burning out 2 fans that seemed to work but where the gen 6 rectifier is there is no way to get air in.

    Have you done this successfully?
     
  18. MasterHo

    MasterHo New Member

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    I've been following the threads and checked out the http://www.roadstercycle.com/ site, but need to know which R/R to order for my G6 - The FH020AA, SH775 or SH847?
     
  19. 2Wheel Drift

    2Wheel Drift New Member

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    You might consider this type of connector. Metri-Pac 150's They should be standard on all motorcycles instead of the poor connectors they use now. I think I have seen them on PWC's. I want to eventually change my connectors to these.
     

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  20. Laker

    Laker New Member

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    Hi MasterHo. Your choice is between SH847 and FH020AA. The SH847 is the latest and physically larger so you need to re-mount it someplace. I have the FH020AA, its smaller then the 847 and fits perfectly in the original spot. Get the Super Kit, its simple install. Make sure to cut out the connector and solder and fit a volt meter. Mine runs 14.2 always. The choice is yours though. As always you can ask Jack at roadstercycle, he's very helpful. Good luck
     
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