To anyone asking if a motorcycle is too powerful to learn on. Remember this.

Discussion in 'Introductions' started by Lint, May 5, 2017.

  1. Riding a 2000

    Riding a 2000 Member

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    In principle, I agree. However, for practicality, a tiered system can work well, perhaps with age-related caveats. In Michigan, and many other states, teen drivers have required steps during the learning process. But those don't apply to people who learn to drive as adults.
    Limitations placed on kids include hours of operation, plus limitations regarding which and how many passengers are allowed.
    That system didn't just float out of someone's brain, it is based on statistics garnered from crash data.

    18 months or so ago I was perusing pages of statistical data regarding teen drivers.
    Frightening, the fact that a male teen driver with 3 peers in the car: Is more likely to be involved in a wreck which causes significant personal injury or death than if he was driving by himself and under the influence of alcohol to .08 (the level of being legally intoxicated).

    Do we need more laws? Hell no. See John Stossel's "Illegal Everything"
    I really think that three rules for life should be enough, when it comes to rules:
    Don't hurt anyone.
    Don't take anyone's stuff.
    Don't do anything stupid.

    Unfortunately, those have not been sufficient for a long time. People just don't seem to be capable of self-regulating.
     
  2. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    Sure looks like there are a shitload of definitions for tiered licensing. The politicians and bean counters win again.
     
  3. CatHerder

    CatHerder New Member

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    Have we ever considered revamping the approach to "driver's training"? Most of it seems to me to be overly concerned with the rules of the road.
    Teaching actual driving skills is a whole different ballgame.
     
  4. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    I support it in the hopes that there is a return of 18k rpm 250's and 400's.
     
  5. Alaskan

    Alaskan Member

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    A noob kills himself on a liter bike he has no business riding. We say, "The noob would have killed himself on a Grom." The general public says, "These powerful motorcycles are too dangerous to be on the roads and should be confined to the race track."

    That's a problem . . .
     
  6. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    Maybe too much emphasis on the larger displacement classes in Moto GP. GP racing ran bikes in the 50cc class, 125s and 250s. I think maybe a couple or three of the fast guys in GP may have started on smaller bikes..Who could have known?
     
  7. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    Makes ya wonder if great leader didn't slip the cameraman a fiver or an autographed book of titty pix for catching him in full song.
     
  8. Bubba Utah

    Bubba Utah Member

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    I worked at a Honda shop in the parts dept. in the early 80's at 16yrs old. I wanted to buy the Honda V65 Saber that just came out! But, due to my parents refusal thank god, I bought and learned to ride on a CH125 Honda "Grace Jones-Adam Ant" scooter that was automatic back in 1984. (Hell, I was more of a New Wave kinda guy than a Rocker and the girls liked it as well:)). I think that everyone should learn to ride with a smaller cc bike. I went to the DMV and got my motorcycle license with this at the age of 16. The Utah state requirement was learning a 90cc minimum to get a motorcycle license. I think that it still stands and should be changed to (like some have said) to a "Technical riding course" requirement. My buddy had the Suzuki Katana 1000 in high school as well as another had the VFR500. They had accidents (one was pretty bad) as so did I on the little scoot. But, nothing like the shit today with more and more starter bikes being inline 4's with 600 to 1200cc and the deaths that follow. I do support responsible parents with kids under the legal age saying no to a bike that is amazingly powerful without mandatory skill training on something smaller.
     
  9. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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  10. Diving Pete

    Diving Pete Member

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    thats 6'5" wide - he needs a pickup.. lol
     
  11. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    Pickups are also very popular with harleydoods.
     
  12. Mind_Surfer

    Mind_Surfer New Member

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    A few positions ahead of me in traffic, noobert on a Grom got run over by an F-150 .....DRT
     
  13. RhINO

    RhINO New Member

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    We have tiered licensing in Sweden, it sort of makes sense. You can get a level 1 license when you're 16, max 125cc and 10kw iirc. At 18 you can get your level 2 license which allows you to drive a bike with max 35 kw and 0,2 kW per kilo. If you've had the level 2 license for two years or are 24, you can get a full license.
    The statistics I Sweden says that sports bikes and gliders are the most prone to be in accidents, the explanation Is that young riders (mostly men) ride the sports bikes and can't handle them fully and the gliders are driven by elder people that got the motorcycle license automatically and haven't ridden a bike and now buys a harley.
     
  14. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    If applying for a motorcycle license (endorsement) in Sweden at age 18 or age 24 does one get the advanced tier license of must everone go through the entire process?

    "Gliders" = Cruisers??
     
  15. JIMLARCH

    JIMLARCH New Member

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    Let's see. My last 6 bikes have been 3 gsxr1000's, a gsxr1100, an sv1000 and a vfr750. If I had never owned anything but a vfr750 I would have said, sure, if you have self control, power is all about controlling the right wrist. Sure, you just have to be mature! But! Anyone who has actually owned a "powerful" bike knows that there is a big difference between a 100 HP and 170 HP (which for some reason is not considered a lot of HP in a world with 200 HP bikes). You can get into trouble on a moped, but you sure can really get into trouble damn quickly on a powerful bike. A powerful bike is not something to learn on. No more than trying to learn on a 900 lb Harley. Your learning curve will be considerably slower. Today with electronics on sportbikes I guess you can mute the power enough to make a bike somewhat docile. But. Just being able to ride fast in a straight line doesn't mean you know how to ride. I abhor excessive electronics. It makes so so riders lose what little skills they have, and give them a false sense of their abilities. Bikes are easier to ride than they were years ago, but that doesn't mean even with electronics that powerful ones are safe in the hands of the inexperienced.
     
  16. Diving Pete

    Diving Pete Member

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    It's not the acceleration that kills people - it's the deceleration.....

    And sadly, bikes go much quicker than they stop.
     
  17. RhINO

    RhINO New Member

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    If you're 24 or older you get the full license. If you've had a lower tier license you don't need to redo the theoretical test but need to do the practical test to show you can handle the bike. If you're 18, you get the second level license so you don't need to drive 125cc.

    Oh and yes, cruiser is the correct English term :), that was a lousy direct translation from Swedish.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2017
  18. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    I'm not sure cruiser is correct politically, or linguistically or even what harleydoods call them selves. Many are called things like "Big Dog" or "Mad Dog" or "Bubba" Uff Da..
     
  19. fatbastard

    fatbastard New Member

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    Learner Approved Motorcycle Scheme.

    Essentially you have an upper limit of 660cc with a power to weight ratio limit of less than 150 kW/t.

    So a VFR800 is well over the limit both in terms of cubic capacity and in power to weight ratio, but my old Suzuki GS500F was no problem. You can have a lot of fun on a 500cc twin. There are LAMS compliant variants of most of the popular bikes in the 650 cc class that would normally be over the power to weight limit, just a question of adding a restrictor usually. Some of them can be derestricted after you get a full license some can't.

    Our system varies a little from state to state but that's the guts of it. Basic rider skills training is mandatory to get a learners permit. i.e. Before you get on the road. It's only two half days, but it's better than nothing and it's subsidised. Further training is required to get a provisional license, again it's subsidised. It's not a bad system, it's not overly onerous and it beats the hell out of being stuck on a sub 250cc bike for two years which is what we had before.

    Personally I think that the main limiting factor is attitude and that is closely followed by finesse. Even with a mature outlook and a good attitude, the throttle response is so sharp on a high capacity sport bike that a ham fisted learner can get themselves high sided pretty easily just getting out of the carpark. Some people could deal with a VFR as a first bike with no problem, others will do themselves or some one else a lot of damage learning that they don't have much finesse in their right hand. Trouble is that you don't really know until you try it. If you happen to be the type that freezes under stress the acceleration rate will see you at warp factor five in a few seconds without any of the relevant skills to get the speed off fast or take corners competently.

    In this country, the cost to the tax payer of a fatal road accident, by the time you factor in emergency service response, hospitalisation, accident investigation, coroners court, hospital treatment and so on, not to mention road closures and the economic cost of traffic delays to business is in the order of a million dollars. I respect peoples right to live with as little government interference in their lives as practicable, but there has to be a happy medium. The cost of subsidising rider training and administering the training and licensing scheme is a very good investment for government as you don't have to see a big reduction in fatal crashes to be in the black financially.

    Unfortunately we have a bit of an issue here with riders getting killed who are unlicensed, drunk, drugged or riding stolen bikes. These guys kill themselves at a disproportionate rate and the numbers tend to make the rest of the riding community look bad. Legislation doesn't have much impact on these guys or they wouldn't be out breaking all the rules in the first place.
     
  20. RhINO

    RhINO New Member

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    A funny thing is that when I got my license I hadn't driven anything two wheeled with motor other than friends' mopeds (50cc) occasionally some 20 years earlier and the driving school put me on a hornet and just asked "have you never driven a motorcycle? You haven't owned a moped? Do you know how to ride a bike?" and then they had to help me to start the bike :-D
     
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