How far can you lean before you lose traction?

Discussion in 'Anything Goes' started by Microwavable, Jun 15, 2018.

  1. FJ12rydertoo

    FJ12rydertoo Member

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    Hmm, I have to disagree with many of your points.
    "Rider learn most from experience that one practices day to day, not few times a month."
    Bad habits are more likely to be learned from things you do every day, but do them badly. A track day can
    make you realize that you are doing them and then you can practice not doing them any more. Personally I
    feel that coasting into turns using engine speed to slow you down is a bad idea, that's what brakes are for.

    I don't think you've watched enough gymkana if you think they don't use the heck out of their brakes. Quickness
    is the key, low times win the race, and you won't get that by coasting into turns. Yes, smooth is great, but knowing
    when to brake and how to brake is also very important. Just watch the front end dive as they come into corners
    after those short straights. They are on the brakes hard.

    If you rarely practice using your brakes hard you're going to have a severe sphincter puckering moment when you
    need to hit the brakes hard for an unexpected hazard, like that deer that just jumped out in front of you, or that
    board that just just appeared from under the car in front of you. Like the BSA says, "Be Prepared". Better to know
    how and not need it than to need it and not know how.
     
  2. Lint

    Lint Member

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    Actually, yes, you pretty much say exactly that. Re-read what you've written.
     
  3. cat0020

    cat0020 Trumper

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    What dos your post has to do with topic of thread?

    Do you consider Pretty much the same as exact?

    What were my words exactly? quote function is not that difficult to use; or maybe only for a noob like you.
    You're the person who's been on this forum 7 year less than me calling me a noob. :Bounce:
     
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  4. Lint

    Lint Member

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    Who's calling names now?

    I'm not going to waste my life looking through your inane babble. Maybe others are more interested in doing it. You are free to go and reread what you've written and see for yourself, but the blinders of your inflexible opinions and need to stand by your dangerous advice based on your opinion instead of being open minded enough to actually listen to others would most likely prevent you from seeing where you're wrong. If you are this way in discussion, then you REALLY have got to be practicing the same wrong things over and over and over again on your bike and I'm flabbergasted you're actually still alive. Or, most likely, don't ride a motorcycle at all.

    Pics of your ride?
     
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  5. fatbastard

    fatbastard New Member

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    There's nothing wrong with practising control skills in a parking lot, particularly if you are practising executing the skills correctly. That's a good thing to do. I have great respect for skilled riders in Motogymkhana. In my experience, getting some coaching to make sure that you are practising techniques correctly is invaluable if you can afford instruction. If not then forums like this often allow riders to find a mentor with a good skill set to assist them in developing their riding skills, that is good too and usually free.

    Disagree with this, they use their brakes extensively, with beautiful technique. You can use brakes smoothly too. :) I don't think you're referring to the competition form of the event though. Just using some of the skills to improve your riding. That's different, but IMHO, car parks are actually great places for practicing braking skills too and in fact one of the most important car park practice skills is braking, that's great for around town, but once you hit the open road you are using braking at higher speeds and the track based skills such as trail braking and learning to brake hard become much more relevant.

    True, physics doesn't change but there are significant differences in momentum between a 10 kg push bike with a 70 kg rider and a 240 kg motorcycle with a similar weight of rider. There are also significant differences in gyroscopic forces on a motorcycle with rotating engine parts, gears, and so on. The weight distribution and centre of gravity are very different on a bike. Overall speeds are usually significantly higher on a motorcycle even around town. So in terms of momentum they are chalk and cheese. The relationships between speed and stopping distance are not linear either, so momentum is an unforgiving quantity.

    Ever try slowing down with engine braking alone on a two stroke ? Engine braking varies massively between different bikes, get a low geared single cylinder trail bike with lots of compression in a light bike, good engine braking. Which is lucky as my old XT had pretty ordinary brakes, drums front and rear, no discs at all. My old two stroke didn't slow much at all if you took your hand off the throttle. Most trail bikes will lock the back wheel if you change down too early.

    So firstly, relying on engine braking is not a valid universal strategy which makes it a very poor bit of advice on any general riding forum. It's not a "technique" it's a habit you learn on some particular bikes that becomes a bad habit when you change to a bike with less engine braking. The VFR does have reasonable engine braking, but it's good "technique" to use the brakes too. This is particularly true if you have more than one bike. Secondly, as you say, we learn most from what we do every day, if you don't make braking part of your daily routine, then it isn't there when you do need it. Thirdly, when you see an upcoming hazard, getting on the brakes early and setting up is not grabbing a fistful of brakes. That stage is light and progressive. It buys you time to assess other options. It prepares you for hard controlled braking if you do need to. It reduces potential energy making whatever evasive option you choose easier to accomplish. It reduces the likely impact energy if you can't avoid the crash which may save your life. It reduces stopping differences significantly. That's why it is universally taught by professional trainers all over the world. If you see a better alternative than an e-stop, you can always transition back off the brakes and onto the throttle. As you don't have to pedal your ar$e off to regain momentum on a motorcycle, you have lost nothing and gained a massive margin for safety.

    Couldn't agree more. In fact I think I said something very similar.
     
  6. cat0020

    cat0020 Trumper

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    As if you're the only person allowed to name call?
    at least me calling you a noob with evidence to support; unlike your assumptions about me without evidence.
    [​IMG]

    You're too lazy to do your own research and I have to provide you with my pictures?
    You're not willing to waste time in your life, but can't even provide evidence to support your own assumptions about me?
    Ever used Google? 3 pics out of top 5 search results are my pics of my rides.
    If you are going to make claims about someone you don't know, at least have some evidence to support you claims.
    Who's the real troll? who's got blinders? "see the truth" about yourself and your posts before you make claims about someone you don't know.

    Top speed for moto gymkhana events usually don't reach 60 mph. I doubt any moto gymkhana riders use sustained braking longer than track riders.
    Brake required to scrub speed on the track from triple digits to 60 mph require much longer and harder brake forces than that of Moto gymkhana events.
    Sure high speed braking practices are important, but compare the braking skills that are used more often on public roads, which type of braking do you use more? emergency stop to reduce immanent impact damage or get out of the way and avoid impact all together?

    So practicing at lower speed to test you lean and tire limits is not safer than finding out at triple digit speed on the track?

    How often do you ride a 2-stroke on public street trying to test the lean limits before tires lose traction as the title of thread topic?
    Is 2-stroke engine braking relevant of majority of riders on this forum?

    I never said not to use or practice using brakes; I said that using the brakes should never be your first reaction to try and avoid impact.
     
  7. Eagle Six

    Eagle Six New Member

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    I like MCRider videos, but on this one I fail to see/hear the value. Most of his videos, that I have watched, are focused on new and/or less experienced, less skilled riders. This video is based on lean angles and traction related lateral force, as in G forces. I have yet to see a G force meter or lean angle gauge on a motorcycle ridden by a new or less experienced/skilled rider, so how is this information going to be applied to riding? It may be nice to know, but about worthless in life or death. Our seat of the pants meters certainly are not accurate enough to determine 34 degrees from 35 degrees, 45 degrees from 47 degrees, or 62 degree from 65 degrees.

    As for the advice about Harley cruiser riders running out of lean angle before they run out of traction so don't worry about it, may be technically correct, but in application it would appear suicide for the new rider who doesn't understand there is a point when hard parts are throwing sparks, that a tire is going to lose traction when it loses contact with the surface. And that difference of seeing/feeling sparks and losing grip is only 1 degree! That means to me in practical application the same thing.....crash!!

    One important factor effecting traction is the temperature of the pavement and more so the temperature of the tires, which he doesn't discuss. How could he leave this out of the equation of traction?

    And, as I understand the theory of the learning curve, he states the ole slow, look, press, and roll technique. Great for beginners, according to the MSF, but when you use this technique the bike is coasting through the corner, which adversely effects the turn/lean geometry of the suspension setup. So I pretty much disagree with the accepted new rider teaching/learning technique which subscribes trail braking being an advance technique. Out of the many, I have yet not met a new (less skilled or experienced) rider who cannot understand and put to practice trail braking. It just takes the time devotion at the beginning of the learning cycles.

    Finally, his relation of speed and traction and going around a corner is excessively misleading in my opinion. It's like telling a new rider to go ahead and take that corner at 120 mph and don't worry about losing traction, just don't exceed the maximum lean angle and 1.1 G's lateral force!!! What!! Of course speed has a lot to do with successfully negotiating a corner. We all know that, but how about the new rider listening to this, are they putting 2+2 together and get 3 or 4? For any given corner, rider, style, bike, tires, conditions, etc., there is a maximum speed we can make it through the turn before we lose traction and crash. Holly shit, I would think this is worth 1-2 minutes of the video to discuss the relationship and cautions.

    As for, "using the brakes should never be your first reaction to try and avoid impact." Wow....that is crazy. My grandpappy told me, "never say never", this certainly applies!! like many other endeavors and sports, we build certain reactions based on our level of training, skills, and fears. But never would I restrict myself or suggest to another rider, they stop thinking and evaluating, by telling them to "never", when there are so many situations they will face requiring many different "correct"' solutions, one of which may very well be get on the brakes fast, smooth, and deep. If there isn't room to serve and miss, then take the hit at 20 mph rather than 70 mph! Thinking doesn't mean spending minutes to make a decision, rather training our mind to select the best of a few options to fit the majority of scenarios we may face, and quickly.

    OK, flame retardant suit on......
     
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  8. cat0020

    cat0020 Trumper

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    You can pre-load the suspension, scrub off speed while evaluate your options just by closing the throttle, but if your FIRST response to avoid impact is using the brakes; you would just limit your available options and available traction, have less control of your vehicle while brake is applied, less ability to maneuver directions.

    Sometime, to avoid impact, I even speed up, when situation requires it.. I stand by what I said: using the brakes should never be your FIRST reaction to avoid impact.
     
  9. Eagle Six

    Eagle Six New Member

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    You have gone from being wrong to being overly wrong. But that's OK, after reading some of your responses, I wouldn't expect anything less from you. And I'm fine that you are sticking by what you said. There are a lot of riders in your club that get it wrong. I'm certainly not trying to convince you of changing your mind. We all have the same apparatus in our butts, therefore we all have our opinions.
     
  10. cat0020

    cat0020 Trumper

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    Easy to say someone is wrong without providing what is incorrect and why.

    Do you dispute my claim that while brakes are applied, you have less control and less options to maneuver your vehicle?

    You don't have to change anyone's mind as long as you keep it open to possibility that you don't know everything and there are situations that you can not imagine.

    Do you dispute that there might be situation where accelerating might allow a rider to avoid impact?

    We all may have the same apparatus in our butts, but what you consume still dictate what come out from your butt; without considering what goes into your body, it's only your butt that suffers what sh!t comes out.
     
  11. Eagle Six

    Eagle Six New Member

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    Perhaps if you go back and read you will understand. I quoted what I think is wrong, and then you quoted again what I said I think is wrong.

    If you say "never" go to brakes first, you have pre-selected a hammer as the tool of choice regardless of the tool most needed for any solution, be it a nail or a screw, or something else. There is more than one solution, but when you include "never", you have eliminated one of the solution which may be the best and correct for a situation. Rather than braking, swerving may be a better option, but if you are going 70 mph and want to avoid a car size object blocking your lane, most likely a swerve is not going to accomplish the desire to avoid impact. It may, but most likely not. Braking may or may not be the best option. Every situation is going to be different, although there may be many that are similar.


    I dispute part of that. If brakes are called for to reduce speed to avoid impact, that provides you with more control. If brakes reduce traction to the point you will have a loss of control, yes I agree. It depends and that is where the word "never" is inappropriate.


    When you state "never", this is exactly what you have done, closed your mind to other options and have lost your imagination.


    No I do not, and I didn't imply that either, accelerating is a option, but not the only option depending on the situation, the speed, the object to be avoided, etc. There may be times when both accelerating and braking are used, others when neither are used, and then some when one or the other is used. When we are out of time to think and behind the eight ball, we need to do something, which may be right or wrong. A better approach is to think ahead and have a few options available to make a quick decision, which in reality, still may be wrong, or it just might be correct. I like to have options, even if they are limited.
     
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  12. cat0020

    cat0020 Trumper

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    First reaction means as soon as you see the hazard, you first reaction is brake; that should NEVER be the case without closing the throttle, without evaluating other options.. simple as that.

    If there is room for you to get around the hazard off-pavement, slow down without using the brakes, would you have done that?

    Using the brakes always reduce your ability to control the bike; always use up available traction to the bike from maneuvering to reducing speed.
    That's why you need to keep your mind open, NEVER use the brakes before you evaluate the situation or close the throttle; maybe you need to speed up to avoid impact


    If you apply the brakes as first reaction, you are limiting your options, further than you need to.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2018
  13. FJ12rydertoo

    FJ12rydertoo Member

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    You're using the words "Never", and "Always" way too frequently. There are rarely absolutes when it comes to motorcycles.
    The only one I can think of is "Always plan to never crash".

    If slowing down by closing the throttle is enough, then it's not an emergency.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2018
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  14. Eagle Six

    Eagle Six New Member

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    Now you are changing your response a bit that better fits my opinion, so we are now talking semantics. All the options you have been stating are physical reactions, and applying the brakes first may in deed be the best in a given situation. But before physical reactions there is mental reaction whether that be fear, recognition, a physical reaction, a physiological change, or a thought process to work through a problem. So now you have added 'evaluating other options' which is exactly what I have said and mean. I didn't say 'always' apply brakes first. I didn't say do any specific physical thing first, last, or somewhere in the middle. I said think it through quickly based on your training, skills, and work the solution to the problem without eliminating an option that may be your best option. I can tell, you are going to argue with that, so go ahead!


    It would be an option, however in the scenario I gave, the option of going off-pavement at that speed and keeping control was not available. If there was enough time to slow down using engine braking, swerve into some kind of surface off-pavement without losing control, then there was more than ample time to slow down and stop using front brake.

    Example from this mornings ride: I'm on a 2 lane country road through a small town at 50 mph with the wife as pillion, 3 seconds behind a motorhome which is 3 seconds behind a full size pickup. The pickup hits a mule deer trying to cross the road. There is no berm, there is on coming traffic. The deer is down, half in my lane, half in the opposing lane and flailing around. I motorhome is trying it's best to stop quickly, but can in no way out stop me. When I see the deer to fully understand the situation I have 3 seconds of distance separation from it and the motorhome. I have about zero distance between me and on coming traffic. Going off-road is not a very good option at all and engine braking will not stop me in time, although in this situation I opted not to make a full stop. The car behind me had no idea what was going on and was behind the eight ball, but had about 5 seconds separation from me when it all started and she managed to keep her car on the road, in her lane, and brake with assured distance from me. I braked to about 15 mph, then swerved to the right line putting the required distance between us and the poor bambi before we passed it. Communications with my wife was ER STOP......SWERVE. After passing the deer, I saw the pickup making a turn around and we proceeded on. Less than 2 minutes later DPS and NCSO cruiser were code 3 to the scene.

    Could I have done this differently and ended with the same results, perhaps. As we know hind sight is 20-20. But from being there and going through a review, everything worked as I had trained, as I am skilled and as I had planned. It wasn't one of those panic stops required situations, but close to it. It was for sure not an engine brake, go for the side off-pavement situations which would have been a disaster in progress for me and the wife.

    But go ahead and offer your wisdom based on peddle bikes, I'm sure you know better than I.



    Again, I almost agree with you and what you say is necessarily incorrect, with the exception of that "NEVER" thing. So if you want to say it one more time so you have the last word, go for it.


    Again, and Again, and Again.......I guess now when you rephrase your statement, we are talking the same thing, almost!! So I'll say it again, this time I will include your favorite word "NEVER", Never say Never, Always take the best option, of the first physical reaction to the last in the best order until you have successfully found the solution or perhaps have run out of options. Most crashes are not caused by a single detail, rather multiples mistakes or errors we have either made or allowed to happen, same with solutions, the best often time are a combination of reactions we put in a sequence with best effect to a satisfactory end.

    We are not always going to apply the smartest solution, but we can work on it through training and developing our skills and paying attention to our direct experience, keeping an open mind and when available hit the parking lot for practice, the MSF, Track Schools, dirt bike training schools, and even Gymkhana training. All these will help the novice and experienced biker improve if they want to learn and increase their skills.

    A rider coach/instructor can increase the speed of skills development by a large margin, even action video shot by a rider buddy, that the rider can review and compare to other more skilled riders or what they have learned in school, may be a huge help to some to see how they actually look rather than how they think they look and act. Although I not a big fan of MSF courses, along with dirt bike training, track training and other high level advanced course, I have attended probably 11 MSF courses over the years, and I may not have learned as much as I would have hoped from the curriculum, I always learned enough that I felt it was worth my time and money to attend. I'll keep taking courses as long as I keep riding. And, the only time I'm going to include 'NEVER' in my options is when I repeat my grand-pappy........'Never say Never'.

    Go ahead cat0020, you can have the last word, although I have enjoyed replying to this thread and reading most of the wisdom, I'm not here as you appear to be, just to argue.
     
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  15. duccmann

    duccmann Member

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    The guys a tool, don’t waste your time.
    JMO


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  16. VFR4Lee

    VFR4Lee Member

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    When in doubt gas it. :wheelie:

    It's your party, you can cry if you want to.
    It's your funeral, you can die if you want to.
    You would die too, if it happened to you. :D
     
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  17. cat0020

    cat0020 Trumper

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    I never said that I know better than anyone; but I always ask people not to assume they know everything about me.
    If you did not specify the conditions of your scenario in the first post, it's not my fault that you get incorrect answers. Changing the conditions later on simply is not a scientific way to go about getting trustworthy results.

    I never said that I know better than you do, stop assuming as such.
    Likely, Granpy is NEVER going to know more about modern motorcycling than you.. would you disagree or never say never, still?
    But it's all semantics to you, so why bother.

    I don't need to have the last word, but it seems that you keep wanting me to have the last word.
    Consider the topic of thread, what do you consider the easiest way to find out how far you can lean before you lose traction?
    What is the least expensive way, with the least amount of risk?
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
  18. Eagle Six

    Eagle Six New Member

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    I will respond to this part, in this way. You are baiting, not very clever. Go ahead, tell us all what the easiest, least expensive, with the least amount of risk way to find out how far you can lean your bicycle before you lose traction! You know you are dying to argue with anyone who responds, so you can expel your wisdom.

    I'll refrain providing the absolute positive way, until I see what you come up with. Who knows, maybe we will agree......I doubt it.....but it could happen!!!
     
  19. cat0020

    cat0020 Trumper

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    If I was baiting, I would setup a trap and some sandwiches; I am debating, with willing participants and set topic, with discussions and ideas that are supported with evidence and reality, instead of personal attacks, name-calling or assumption of personal background or personality without proof... but that's all just semantics, right?

    You can refrain from anything you want, but that does not disprove anything claims that I've made in this thread.
    You want to wait for what I can come up with, you can wait a long time or just go out and try it for yourself, do some of your own research.
    Take my words as much as you paid for it, which it nothing.
     
  20. Eagle Six

    Eagle Six New Member

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    Come on, tell us all what the easiest, least expensive, with the least amount of risk way to find out how far you can lean your bicycle before you lose traction!
     
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