Charging/Electrical Issue Advice 6th Gen

Discussion in 'Mechanics Garage' started by vfrsoulplanet, Apr 27, 2019.

  1. vfrsoulplanet

    vfrsoulplanet New Member

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    Hello, longtime lurker here, but finally signed up because i need your help. My '04 6th gen seems to be succumbing to the dreaded electrical issues. Late last season, I was left stranded on the road when i accidentally stalled. Here is a list of important events/facts.

    1. Battery is 1 year old - was replaced in '18 - ytz12s 11ah 210 cca
    2. Battery tested good at autozone
    3. Wiring harness recall performed a month ago by honda
    4. Consistently get good battery voltages 13.15 off 14.15 started
    5. Bike is ridden 30 miles daily m-f (highway) bump start when battery insufficient
    6. Bike will crank a couple times in temps <60F but NOT start. Then all trip and clock settings reset.
    7. Bike starts normally in temps >60
    8. Bike is completely stock - no electrical mods
    9. Jump started the bike a few times using car battery (not running)
    I've read through many of the threads concerning the R/R and wiring, but before purchasing and performing those fixes, wanted to get feedback on how to proceed. Maybe try a new battery? (the system seems to be charging)
     
  2. skimad4x4

    skimad4x4 "Official" VFRWorld Greeter

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    Hi and welcome to the MadHouse

    When you get time please swing by the "introductions" section and say high to the rest of the folks on here - maybe post up a photo or two of your VFR and tell us a bit about you and where you are based - city/state is ample - but you just might be lucky and find another forum member living close by and willing to help offer advice with the problem rather better than is possible from the other side of the pond.

    Anyway I assume you have spotted the infamous "drill" thread.
    https://vfrworld.com/threads/how-to-fix-common-regulator-stator-failures.39277/

    The tests described in post #9 should allow people to assess the state of their charging system and identify what if any components may need replacement. Just throwing new parts at the bike can get quite expensive.

    OK so the basics - The key components are Battery RR Stator and Loom - a fault in any one of those can cause damage to some or all of the others.

    The tests described above need to be done TWICE (and depend on starting on with a healthy fully charged battery or you will get misleading results) so do the tests once with the bike cold and then repeat the tests straight after the bike has done a 20 minute ride - by which time the bike should have warmed up fully and heat related failures may become apparent. Insulation on the Stator windings may degrade when hot causing the stator to drain power rather than add it - likewise diodes in the RR (especially if its still an original OEM) can just give up - and depending on what diode fails can do all manner of bad things.

    If you find everything comes up clear in both cases then check for some sort of short circuit or bad earth - which could flatten the battery and preventing it from restarting the bike. Basically if the battery is tested good my money is on the stator - where the quick alternative to testing is to simply remove the stator cover and have a look - if you are greeted by the acrid smell of fried electrics and charred windings then you have found ONE faulty item. But please repeat the tests after its replaced as the Stator often fails after the RR starts to play up - and you do not want a dodgy RR to wreck a second stator.

    Good luck - let us know how you get on.



    SkiMad
     
  3. Darth Vader

    Darth Vader New Member

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    Battery voltage with engine off 13.15 ? ?
    Should be 12.7 ish.
    Im going to say battery is the problem
     
  4. OZ VFR

    OZ VFR Member

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    I don't think 12.7 is right.
    Every good battery I have ever tested is 13.1v at rest.
    You need to load test the battery to know if it's good, but not starting when cold is pointing to a bad one.
    .....and do the drill.
     
  5. mello dude

    mello dude Administrator

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    Sometime the problem can be as simple as the battery connector is loose...... but from the Drill - confirm that the battery is good and go from there.
    - do the drill, get the data, and report results. Also if you can find the problem cold, then hot doesnt matter.

    At times, sometimes it comes down to a "got to be there" thing and debug by forum wont get it. I am def a hands on, see it, feel it guy....
    The clocks resetting is kind of a hint....
     
  6. vfrsoulplanet

    vfrsoulplanet New Member

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    Thank you all for your input and sorry for the delay. I have completed the drill and the results are as follows: Resistance and continuity between all points tested normal. Initial battery voltage was 12.89V. I also did a drain test and it seemed to pull 0.15 MA with everything off. The battery was taken to a local auto parts store for another "check". They said it was "good". On test day, i had to bump start the bike to ride to a garage facility, so it did NOT start on it's own prior to testing. Post test, seems like the stator is outputting normally. I did notice the 3 yellow wires and R/R were EXTREMELY hot during the test. But, visually, there is no melting, connectors look clean. Note, the wiring harness recall was recently completed by Honda. Wondering if it's possibly a starter issue which is the reason for intermittent non-starts? In between idle and 5k rpm tests, i jockeyed the bike outside the garage and it started normally without hesitation. Albeit, the bike is not immune from existing factory wiring deficiencies. Your thought and suggestions?

    Bike temp around 150F | 65.5 C
    idle
    AB. 23.5 V
    AC 23.9V
    BC 23.5V

    5000rpm
    AB. 67V
    AC 67V
    BC 67V


    Bike temp around 200F |93.3 C
    idle
    AB. 23.5V
    AC 23.9V
    BC 23.5V

    5000rpm
    AB. 65V
    AC 67V
    BC 69V
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2019
  7. BC800

    BC800 New Member

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    Sadly, my 07 6th Gen VFR appears to be moving down the path towards Stator/RR/wiring failures. A complete check out of the voltages and component failures is coming (I'll post on the forum); however, from the looks of the posts about these issues it was only a matter of time for me.

    To the point: Is there a recommended upgrade list for all things Stator and RR and associated wiring on the 6th gen??


    Also: Is there a RR change necessary if one wants to eventually move to LED lighting -- if so, now would be the time for me to find out about that!

    Thanks in advance!
     
  8. mello dude

    mello dude Administrator

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    Hi - I dunno what it is, but Honda seemed to get a bad batch of stators for '06s and '07s.........

    To your question.... 6th gen formula
    OEM stator or Custom rewind... No OEM connector... hardwire with Solder to the R/R or double overlap butt connector and then use marine heat schrink tubing for weather resistance. With Custom Rewind, you can get longer leads so you can crimp the connector length perfect to the R/R.
    R/R ..... Either FH020AA or SH847AA - A source is www.roadstercycle.com
    mello dudes garage R/R mount plate system.
    The VFRness will not be required if you wire the R/R direct to battery as per current art.

    Deviate from above at your own peril.

    That is all.. :)
     
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  9. mello dude

    mello dude Administrator

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    Looking at your stator voltages, they look fine.
    Check startor selonoid wiring, maybe replace
    The Green common ground block could be eating it too.
    I am def at a gotta be there thing...
     
  10. dbuzz77

    dbuzz77 New Member

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    a battery will read 12.7 ish as stated after minutes of inactivity, 13 ish just after shutoff. you need to crank but not start and measure the battery voltage. it's suspicious to me that warmer temps it will start (less battery load). someone here should know what to take off so it won't start to do a crank test.
     
  11. BC800

    BC800 New Member

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    Just thought I'd post my stator checks (6th gen '07 VFR) since they didn't turn out quite right.
    (1) Pulled the connector, and it was surprisingly clean (see img_1995 and img_1996)
    (2) Measured ohms AB, BC, and CA. All are 0.50 ohms.
    (3) Measured A to ground, B to ground, and C to ground. I got 0.50, 0.40, and 0.50 ohms.

    Since I expected to measure open circuit for all three measurements in (3) above, I just want to make sure that (3) can be measured with the stator on the bike and at the connector as shown in pictures img_1997, img_1999, and img_2001.
     

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  12. fink

    fink Member

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    Yes it can be tested on the bike..
     
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  13. mello dude

    mello dude Administrator

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    Seems to indicate your stator has gone south.. That goes with the trend of a funky bad batch of stators for Honda...
     
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  14. skimad4x4

    skimad4x4 "Official" VFRWorld Greeter

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    Yes probably time to buy at least a stator cover gasket then get the spanners out, open it up and see what the stator looks like. If you find crispy fried windings and the smell of burnt electrical windings then you have found your problem and it is time to replace the stator - OEM is my recommendation.
     
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  15. vfrsoulplanet

    vfrsoulplanet New Member

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    Thanks, I've decided to go with Roadstercycle's upgraded r/r and new lithium battery. Install to be completed in a few days. I've also run down the starter solenoid connections, inspected, but no burnt connectors or fuses.

    I have a sneaking suspicion the battery is the main culprit, despite what the auto stores say. My stator wires consistently get hot to touch after the bike is at operating temp. That could be a symptom of the battery not accepting a charge or depleted battery, not just the stator to r/r connections. Hard to diagnose since it seems like each component in the system is dependent on one another.

    I've viewed threads about the green common ground block. Are you referring to the return ground wire connector block with ~12 green wires? (front of the bike harness wrapped in tape) Little hesitant to attempt to solder all that together, but if the new battery and r/r don't work, this will be my last effort. Anyone have experience doing that? Torch solder or can a soldering gun get it done? Maybe some type of crimp that would be a little cleaner?

    Anyways, i'll let you all know the results.
     
  16. OZ VFR

    OZ VFR Member

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    If your stator wires are getting hot it's a bad connection full stop.
    Inspect the connector from the stator and get rid of it if you haven't already, it is this bikes main failure point.
    Earth block is also worth getting rid off as this is also a known weak point.
     
  17. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    There is one thing that is often overlooked when dealing with wiring harnesses. Those that have been around awhile, and especially those that have spent their entire lives in damp and corrosive environments, is that it isn't always the connector.

    The issue is the wire that is an inch or two nearest the terminal, breaks down over time. The wire becomes oxidized and begins to harden, thus creating resistance at the terminal/wire junction. The resistance continues to increase over time, and with it, so does the amount of heat generated through this area of the wire. This is not good for the stator or the rectifier, because the problem continues to cascade with more and more heat being introduced over time. Shrink wrapping connections is a must.

    If the machine is operated in the rain, or washed with soap and water, the speed with which this occurs increases exponentially. I cringe when I see pics of moto's with giant puddles around them and people being so proud of their bike washing skills. You're not helping. The plastic connector is just a terminal holder, the problem is the wire. This is exasperated, when the current trend of using narrower gauge wire is entered into the equation, this process happens much quicker. To fully correct the source of the problem, the wire has to be stripped back until this area of the wire is removed, and a new piece of wire is added. If you don't do this and just solder the ends together, you won't really be solving the problem and it won't be long until the cycle repeats itself.
     
  18. BC800

    BC800 New Member

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    When looking at my results for resistance: how likely is it to see all three legs shorted to ground? Is this a typical failure mode?
     
  19. mello dude

    mello dude Administrator

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    Yeah - I did catch that. It is a bit strange for 3 at once. Dunno what to comment on that. Did you run the AC voltage test, 3 legs?
    - I'm kinda at crack it open for a look.
     
  20. mello dude

    mello dude Administrator

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    I have seen several threads on getting rid of the grounding block. Some have been all the wires twisted together and soldered. Looks terrible but functional. Guess its ok..... This is a job I have yet to do on my own ride and I havent decided an approach yet. Mbe a some kind of buss bar, mbe a crimp it connector setup, mbe (fill in the blank), but it will be damn neat, clean and bullet proof and well insulated.

    Btw, most guys report that all the ghostly weird electric problems disappear after the fix...

    Cheers
     
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