BlackWidow or Delkevic Headers?

Wanted to test fit the Ohlin's CBR929 shock before sending it for maintenance. Oh yes, it already has a longer adapter (clevis pin...). No extra work for me!

Anyway, before the test fit, I of course needed to remove the original shock. Well after taking a break, I believe I slipped on a larger gearwrench than needed and almost stripped the lands of last nut.

So as to not worsen things, I decided to remove that last swingarm bolt after the removal of the exhaust. Yaay PB Blaster! Effortless!!!!! That way, I could just slide a 6 point on there with a ratchet and be done. Stupid exhaust was in the way.

Anyway, my exhaust is crummy, and I was gonna get a Delkevic. Now let me explain, on my '99, I just want better looks with the stainless longevity of corrosion resistance. Yeah, I'm not going to wait for the second coming of the Two Brother's.

Having bumped into some BlackWidow ads on the internet and eBay, my curiosity was peaked. Anyway, the BlackWidow is a bit cheaper from seller to the door and is less pieces.

Anyone have luck with the BlackWidow or any experience? There's plenty about the Delkevic headers.

Without coating, will the exhaust change to that mellow bronze color with age like on my '04?

Also, can I steel wool the '04 headers for more luster, as they are a bit dull?

Thanks.

 

The Black Widow looks nicer than the Delkevic. I like that it is all welded, instead of held together with springs. But Delkevid is sold in the US, with no hassle. Delkevic is $307 shipped. And I've never had any problems with springs. Once it's on, no one can tell the difference.

 

The Black Widow collector looks a lot freer flowing than the Delkevic.

 

The 2-1 collector may look okay in pictures, but I am sure, more importantly, that the 4-2 collectors merge angles and over all design is trash.

You are so much better off just having your current 99 header ceramic coated. It would be a lot cheaper too.

About being all welded, instead of held together with springs, thats actually a bad thing. Being held together with springs is going to allow it to fit much better with much less stress in the header.

 

Definitely have some adjustability with the Delkevic. As far as the bold part above, I actually don't know. The Delkevic collector in the pic is a weird design. Does it flow better or worse than stock? No idea at all... I did talk with a lady from Delk and she said that there are metal vanes in the collector to direct flow.

 

Thanks for the opinions.

Candy, my headers are crummy, and being mild steel, I'd shy away. They are awfully pitted, at least the front tubes. Jet Hot has always been a candidate, but from what I've read recently about the warranty, nahhh. I'm sure others have had excellent results. I just don't believe the prep will be good enough not to show the pitting in the final product. Additionally, I'm concerned about chipping the coating on install.

I'd sell the '99 Headers on eBay for whatever to defray cost somewhat.

The Delks are cheaper with the current exchange rate.

I simply liked having a choice and the ability to explore before deciding.


On another note, should I steel wool the '04's headers or what would the group recommend? Thanks.

 

I installed the Delkevic last week on my 2001.
There are deflectors blades inside the collector to direct air flow, but I'm sure it wouldn't be as good as the stock system.
The primaries are 35mm as opposed to 31mm from the stock 01.
It sounds very different than the cat pipes I had on, and they were very easy to install with so many pieces.
I have no problems with the springs, and no leaks after install.
My friends $3500 all titanium Akra on his BMW S1000RR is held together by springs, so I'm sure it can't be that bad.
I waited until it was all together before I tightened it all up.
My feeling is that the Black Widow, which I looked at as well, would need to be made very well to fit as easy.
And the very few reports I've read on them for the VFR, were'nt very inspiring for fit or build quality.
The Delkevic looks great installed, and seat of the pants dyno tells me not much was lost if any.
For me here in Oz it was one of the very few options I had, the few 99 pipes I found were really crap and not worth trying to fix, and anything else available was at least twice the price.

 

We are a picky bunch. We can find fault in all three of the designs mentioned above.

My headers look crummy, but I've seen photos of some that are much worse! Mine is on an 01, so my stocker has the cat. If the Delk that I ordered is more restrictive than the stocker, I'll gain low end, if it flows better, I'll get some top end. If it flows very much like my stocker, I'll be very happy. My VFR is plenty fast as is. I'm getting rid of that nasty looking stocker because I can't stand rust on another wise, very good looking 16 year old motorcycle.

Oz, thank you for your informative post. Like I said, I ordered a Delkevic. It should be in by Friday. Hey Oz, did you take your center stand off? How much trouble were the Oxygen sensors to remove? How long did the whole job take?

 

No, I value the center stand too much to get rid of it, I thought about it, but common sense prevailed.
The oxygen sensors were easy to replace, there was an extension lead that came with the pipes to reach the new position right sensor.
All seals, crush gaskets, clamps and a tube of silicone seal came with the pipes.
The fit of the delkevic surprised me, I was expecting a cheap build with poor fitment, but that was not the case.
All up it took me half a day, taking my time and not forcing anything.
The worst part was getting the crush seals to stay in the exhaust ports.
I ended up using the tube of silicone supplied to stick them to the pipes before installing.
I also did a dry run without seals to make sure everything fit, without damaging the crush seals.
I also suggest you have a 1/4" drive socket with a couple of extensions and a CV joint or bendy extension to make it easier.

 

Great info, thanks! I'm going to get that "bendy extension".

You said the new header sounds different. Can you describe it? Did the exhaust get louder, and how much?

I'm planning on half a day Saturday. I'll do a lot of cleaning since it'll be apart.

 

Why are you not installing o2 eliminators?

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There is much more to it than more or less flow. Mainly velocity. A bad header can lose power everywhere, just like a good header can gain everywhere. You can lose flow and velocity at the same time. They can be independent of one another, though they are usually related.

Piping diameter is more related to velocity and merge quality is more related to flow. If you have great merges, the right tuned lengths and conservative piping diameter, you will gain a little bit everywhere. If you have bad merges with too large of piping and or the wrong tuned length, you will lose everywhere.

Also you have 4-2-1 vs 4-1 headers, where 4-2-1 usually spread the torque curve out, while 4-1 are more peaky. Get the lengths before the merges wrong and you can really screw up the powerband. Get tuned lengths for top end paired with piping diameter for low end torque and you are just going to lose torque everywhere.

In the case of the Two Brothers Racing header, great merges, great tuned length and piping diameters on the bigger side, you get great mid and huge top end, with out losing too much on the bottom.

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When I get the Power Commander to try and fix off idle fuelling I will get rid of them.
Not much of an issue for me at the moment since my bike spends most of it's time between 6000 and 10000rpm..
They only really come into play at constant throttle openings while cruising to minimise fuel usage, I don't spend much time there unless I'm, well, ....cruising..., so can't see a problem.
My bike is louder now without the cat, specially at iddle, seems a bit deeper, I run a Staintune with no baffle.

 

Well, if you can cut, grind and weld, the Blackwidow is okay, otherwise don't buy it. Because the merges are horrible, tiny small holes randomly cut out with a plasma cutter it seems
I was avare of this when i bought my left exit so no surprise there, many others with the same problem. i just cut the slip joints off so i could get to the merge and grind it open then welded the back on.
Also made a custom link pipe to get the muffler higher up. This was for the 4th gen.

 

One more time, YOU ARE MUCH BETTER OFF HAVING YOUR FACTORY 98/99 HEADER CERAMIC COATED.

 

Geeze, Candy, take a breath. Lol

I'm not totally sure that I'm going to have my stock '01 header coated. But I'm certainly not going to throw it away any time soon, either. I don't like selling original parts.

My stock header is not harmed structurally. It's just ugly. The bike runs very well with the stock header, cat and all.

I've seen those pics of the insides of the BW before. They look so nice on the outside, why don't they spend just a little more time on the inside?

If I was an exhaust builder, I'd just make an exact copy of the 98,99 header out of Stainless .

 

At some point somebody just needs to start testing these things, side by side, on the same dyno, on the same day, with the exact same bike. A true comparison based on true data. I have yet to see anybody do it...well, anybody that's willing to put their efforts up for all the world to see. Who is gonna go Mission Impossible? If you really want an exhaust fabricated....

 

I agree, very hard to say what product is better/best without side by side comparison. Considering that this would require a lot of time and money, both of which are a luxury for most of us, don't think that's going to happen anytime soon. Unfortunately we are at the mercy of marketers who sell the story along with the product. Anyone have a rich uncle willing to throw some cash around?

 

That would be great, but unfortunately most people barely have the time and or money for one header+install and dyno, let alone two or three (especially considering that you should retune for the different headers). Maybe we will get lucky after the release of the Tyga headers and someone will do a before and after. For now its mostly butt dyno's and 1/4 miles. From my own experience, there was negligible difference between my stock 2007 header and motad header (no trap speed increase), the 100.93 whp I put down with a slip on+motad+bmc filter and tune reflects this. I wouldn't be surprised if my bike would have put down at least that, maybe more with a 98/99 header. I can tell you that there was a dramatic gain with the two brothers header (about 10mph increase in trap speed), but I street tuned afterwards so there is no dyno numbers.

No one is telling you to coat your header. You have a smaller primary, catted header, not a 98/99 larger primary, catless header. I was talking to the OP that has a 98/99 header that is actually worth saving...

 

No taking peak hp dyno numbers into the equation, a good header can smooth out hp and torque throughout the rpm range. You may not pick up a lot of peak numbers but you can pick up a little here and there that makes the bike better all around, and more linear power delivery. Peak numbers are just part of the big picture.