Body position

Went down to NC and found some awesome roads near route 68. My buddy followed me down on his V-Rod (he gets a different bike every year almost, last was a Speed Triple). Good times and I think I'm starting to get better at the slow is fast because I didn't feel like I was pushing hard but he was maxing his lean out and he has 5x my experience. So when we arrived he told me that I might be "leaning my body too much into the corner." His thought is that if you lean your body into the corner that leaves no room to react and pull the bike back up if you need to make a fast adjustment for a road hazard. His approach is to sit as close to vertical as possible and manipulate the lean almost exclusively with his arms up or down.

This doesn't sound right to me, I'm trying to use foot peg weight as much as possible and it seems like the more I use my body the less I have to lean the bike and will probably have more traction available. Being a real new rider (but a heavy reader) I didn't have the nerve to say that I think he might be steering his bike way too much.

Oh and I found this video, something else to work on.
YouTube - body positioning

 

you would be correct. the more you lean your body, the less you have to lean your bike, therefore you'll be further away from your traction limits.

 

Great clip! I see so many ppl hanging their A** way too far out of the seat pan. Like he says, slide the middle of your butt to the edge of the seat!
Good explanation in the video of balance points on the bike.
My 2 cents worth.

 

I think your buddy is 100% wrong!
The more you hang off your bike,the more vertical the bike will remain,meaning you will have more lean angle in the bank should you need to change your line to avoid a road hazard.

Tell your buddy that he should try hangin' off his vrod and maybe he'll be able to stay with you through the twisties!!!!
Just because he's got more experience than you doesn't make him a good rider.

 

Check our Nick Ientach's book on sport riding techniques. Save those traction points!

 

I am with the folks above...lean the body more and the bike less. Just be sure you never get in too deep because the real world throws surprises at you and you need to leave room to react to cars straying into your lane, off-camber turns, decreasing radius curves, gravel, wetness, critters, etc.

 

Here are some pictures of me when I was at the tail of the dragon:




If I didn't have my knee hanging out I'm sure I'd be dragging my footpegs, which in my opinion is worse than dragging a knee because when you're at the footpegs you're reaching at the near limit of the tire grip.

To really bring the point home check out this thread at another forum: LINK:Dragon Picks And Bites - VFRD This guy crashes at the dragon, you guessed it, dragging his footpegs. He's got a cool picture and you can see the sparks flying off:


But what's not cool is this:


Shame to see a beautiful bike like that wrecked. I'm willing to make a large wager that if he at least had his knee hanging out he'd be writing about how the dragon was a lot of fun and got back home safely.

 

+1 to the above. Getting off the seat allows the bike to stay more verticle thru the turn. Also, turning a V-Rod and turning a VFR thru a corner are 2 different techniques. Look at my avatar. 30 mph, I am off the seat (one cheek on, one off, maybe a tad more) and I am inches from touching a knee.

 

i agree with your friend that sitting a little centered and a little more upright makes changing line easier...... if it's necessary.

 

Right to the point Joey, good job brother.

The lean angle looks cool for the picture, but if don't get your body off the bike you can run out of tire fast. Especially if you are railing on the road.

BZ

 

Good video. The guy with the arrow pointing to him is a co-worker of mine. He keeps trying to get me to go to that riding school/track.

 

If you are riding dirt or motard, you stay on top and push the bike down. If you are on a street machine, you put your weight inside the turn and keep the bike as verticle as possible. If you are big like me, you don't have to lean out as far to go fast.
Also, get down on the tank and get your head into the turn. Your outside arm should be relaxed and the elbow loose and below the bars. (almost touching the tank)Your inside elbow should be pointed as if you are trying to drag an elbow. (You aren't going to drag it!) This gets the leverage correct to ride without tiring as quickly. The knee down is just an indicater of where you are at, you don't want any pressure on your knee if you do actually have it touching pavement. (There is NO need for you to touch down on the street.)

 

I'd like to thank everyone for their input on this thread and Fearlsgood for starting it. I enjoyed the video and I'll be looking for Nick's book tomorrow. Happy trails....

 

I took the K. Schwantz school earlier this year. The lean technique taught there was 1 butt cheek off the seat, sternum centered behind the fork on the side you are turning, and the stretched arm on the other side should be hugging the tank, but not completely extended so that you arms can act as shock absorbers. After practice on the track, I found this technique increased traction and the speed I can go around turns, and my control and therefore confidence.

 

The technique Olivino described is what I use, with head outside the windshield, eyes looking where you want to go. Please tell us more about your experinces with the Schwantz school. I've been seriously thinking that about going to one of the riding schools, I know they're expensive, but the idea really appeals to me.

 

The Schwantz school was excellent, its all about confidence which applies to both riding on the track and street. At my course, they divided the class into A and B groups depending on experience. There is 20 minute class followed by about 5 laps track session, 5 times a day, and after each track session they review your technique (including body position) filmed by an instructor who circles the track while the group rides. Within each group you are further split up into three groups depending on the pace you want, each of the three is lead by an instructor who will give students turns to lead the group if he has confidence in you. The great thing is constant feedback, so you will learn! Since, as explained above, there are different levels which you can ride at, I see myself going back again. And everyone including Kevin are great guys! By the way my avatar is me at the Schwantz school.

 

Hi, riding through bends fast is a big issue for me. I have been riding for about 3 years here in Thailand on various bikes (Honda Hornet, Yamaha TDM, Honda VFR) And I took riding lessons on a race track where I realised that even at crazy speeds the bike is never the problem. It's usually the driver and his confidence. What I learned on the track is in line with what some of you guys said about body position (hanging off, leaning forward into the bend, keep your arms flexible etc). However I can not really transfer it into the 'wild'. I approach corners and my mind is playing tricks - what might be on the road, cars that might be in my lane, curves getting sharper etc. So I slow down and spoil the fun. Even worse in some bends my stomach is churning and I have to force myself to pull through. I am riding with various groups and generally I am the slowest (by comparison). So to sum it up: technique is one thing - confidence is everything. On the track I am confident and scrape my knee on the tarmac. On the road I am a slouch. I can not imagine to use hang off style to get my knee down and get the last bit off traction from my tires on single lane twisties where anything can happen. Not long ago a friend of mine who is a very confident and experienced rider got clipped in a sharp bend by a SUV driving in his lane. He just ended up in the woods. Can you tell me how you deal with the mental side of the cornering?
PS: generally I am not scared at all and enjoy riding in really tough conditions here in Bangkok and outside. It's a constant battle with cars, busses, trucks, small mopeds that have no regard for 'right of way'. Riding here is constant swerving between traffic and judging gaps and accelerating into them in dynamic conditions - even at high speed on highways. However on country roads with little traffic I get beaten by the corners. It's depressing!
Thanks
Dalexander

 

That's probably not as uncommon as you might think. All of the riders I know that have decent access to a track usually say something about keep the limits riding to the track. That might be me this summer after I get my first taste. Ohio roads usually have plenty of space but pushing into the unknown is a good way to get in over your head real quickly.

So my .02 is: You already know you're fast and by keeping it to the track you will likely outlast the people you ride with. A lot of those guys get fast really quick, get hurt or have a really bad experience and then give it up.

Keep your head on a swivel and keep the rubber side down! Take some antacids too.

 

Hi FearlsGood, what you say is true, some of my buddies take risks that can only be excused by lack of bad experiences. In my first year here in Thailand I learned my lessons by having a small number of incidents and one accident where a truck dumped stuff right in front of me at about 80miles/hour and I went airborne. I ride every day and have not had a problem in more than two years. But still I know there is room for improvement when cornering. In the end it comes down to individual abilities. Some of it can be learned but for the average rider the learning is tough. For example, in moto gp you see riders leaning in hard and still manage to go round somebody slipping in front of them. In my experience it ends in a pile up (happened to me when somebody lost control in a bend in front of me - luckily I managed to avoid a crash but still dropped my Honda Hornet). Now I keep my distance and slow down. Hm, I would still like to know what goes on in the minds of bikers who get to the limits in corners. It can't be just fatalistic. I wish I had a race track with real life road conditions but without the oncoming traffic. And a bike that I can drop without remorse.. Enjoy your track day(s) this coming summer!
Dalexander