Charging problem - not R/R and not battery

Discussion in '5th Generation 1998-2001' started by OnlyVfr, Apr 11, 2018.

?

What is failing?

  1. R/R

    3 vote(s)
    100.0%
  2. Stator

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Battery

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Bad earth somewhere

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. OnlyVfr

    OnlyVfr New Member

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    Hi

    After 20miles trip I stopped for a while, bike tuned off. Then tried to start the bike. Battery died. Charged up for 5 mins at 5Amps and got it running again. This hasn't repeated since, however I am not riding now for a while.

    I have a voltmeter display in my inner fairings, just above the clocks. At 5000rpm while riding it was just 12V! I double checked with meter attached to battery terminals. The same. Idle was 12.6 (lights on), when I revved it , then it drops to 11.9V.

    Manual says it should be at least 13.6-14.4 at 5k rpm.

    First thing I thought was R/R however I did not know how old was the battery so I went out and bought a new one(Yuasa), fully charged over night. Installed new battery, measured when bike off was 12.6V. Started the bike, lights on, idling max at battery terminals was 13.6V(the same as my volt meter display). Revved it to 5000rpm and it goes to 12.8Volts. I can see light dimmed slightly when revved and then go back to normal when idling.

    Ok, I took rear apart and took R/R out, it looked like it was replaced as it did not look old at all. Anyway, I followed the ElectroSport Industries series of tests and all is good. R/R is ok according to meter readings and spec. I tested it off the bike, and when the bike was running, to see any leaking earths (above 0.2V etc).

    Last thing I tested was the stator. Disconnected the stator connector, and found 3 yellow wires. I checked resistance between each yellow wires of the stator. All = 0.4. Honda says there should not be any more than 0.2 - 0.5 ohms. However ElectroSport says: One of the readings is lower than 0.5 or higher than 2Ohms = stator faulty.

    Then I tested VAC with stator disconnected, at 5000rpm all 3 legs 65V. Idle was good too, and when connected the stator back to R/R the readings were according to book too.

    Last test: started the bike with unplugged stator. Red meter lead to one of yellow wires/connectors, and black meter lead to negative battery. All 3 yellow pins were 0.2-0.3V and when I revved it to 5k rpm it went us 2-3V up(looks like those 2 V I am missing). Manual I am reading says that it means: there is an insulation breakdown and part of your charging capacity is leaking off into the bike and never getting to the battery. There should be no voltage at all.

    Question is: did anybody have any experience in "leaking stator". Or can anyone take measurements and compare to mine? I think it is the stator, but I need to make sure before I start taking it apart...
     
  2. skimad4x4

    skimad4x4 "Official" VFRWorld Greeter

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    Here we go again - the return of VFR electrical gremlins season.

    Post #9 on the following thread is the famous "drill" which has been devised to work out what is and is not working OK.

    http://vfrworld.com/forums/showthread.php/39277-How-to-fix-common-regulator-Stator-failures

    PS it would help to know what VFR version you own?

    NOTE The tests must be done with a healthy fully charged battery or you can get false results, and they must be done TWICE once with the bike cold and then repeated after the bike has returned from at 20 minutes+ ride so that all elements of the charging system get warm and any heat related faults become apparent. The point here is that tests only done with the bike cold, may suggest components are fine, however especially the RR and Stator can still misbehave when hot. Inherently insulation on the stator windings can fail when it gets hot so instead of charging the battery can drain it. Likewise diodes in the RR can work fine when cold but once hot can fail and depending on what diode(s) fails can rapidly discharge a battery, overcharge it or even send AC into the loom which will not be good!

    Those "voltmeter" readings which you quote in paragraph 2 above are a very strong sign that at least the RR is now playing up and you need to replace it. With the engine running at any speed above idle the volts should be between 13 and 14.5 volts. The worry is once the RR starts to fail both battery and stator have to work harder - so check this out and if you conclude you need a new RR then look for a decent Shindengen RR - you may also want to skim through some of the posts around #34 in the above thread as there are quite a few pieces of carp being sold on ebay.

    If you are still unsure of the state of the stator them track down a stator cover gasket from Honda and just unbolt the cover. If this reveals deep brown crispy fried windings with that penetrating smell of electrical windings then you will need a replacement - look at post #214 for an indication of what a dead stator looks like.

    Good luck - let us know how you get on.

    SkiMad
     
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  3. OnlyVfr

    OnlyVfr New Member

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    Vfr 800 fi, year 2000. I tested with cold and hot engine, ran tests 3 times to make sure. Thank you for your reply. I will start from buying R/R and will post you when have it installed. We take it from there then. I am still worried that I have voltage between unplugged stator connectors and ground on idle and voltage goes up when revved. Now another honda manual says that 0.1-1Ohms is ok between stators legs at 20C. I am going to read the entire topic you sent me link too. Thank you again!
     
  4. skimad4x4

    skimad4x4 "Official" VFRWorld Greeter

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    OK if its a 5th Gen - also check the stator wiring connector for signs of overheating! They have been known to catch fire big time!
     
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  5. squirrelman

    squirrelman Member

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    ANy time there are charging problems, it's wise to pull the top (usually red) plug off the starter solenoid to check for melting or burning or corrosion on the connections, as charging current flows through there and the often meets resistance from damaged connections.

    new 032.JPG
     
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  6. BCAl

    BCAl New Member

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    I just changed my R/R and my readings were similar to yours before I made the change. I ordered a super kit from Jack at Roadstercycle. When I went to remove the old R/R I had to fight to get the connector out of the old R/R IMG_5305.JPG

    This is why I had to fight to get the connector apart. After changing the R/R and the wiring all measurements are as they should be. After I removed the R/R I checked the diodes and it all checks out fine. There is no sign of heat on any of the other connections in the entire charging system.
     
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  7. skimad4x4

    skimad4x4 "Official" VFRWorld Greeter

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    Wow that was a close call. Glad to hear you swapped out the RR with a decent one from Jack and all is now good.

    Given the state of that connector it would not have been much longer before the plastic would have melted through somewhere, and once you short out stator leads it gets a lot more costly.

    Electrical Gremliin season has well and truly begun...
     
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  8. Diving Pete

    Diving Pete Insider

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    Nope - it never stopped - lol
     
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  9. OnlyVfr

    OnlyVfr New Member

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    Yes, I took everything apart except Stator itself. Connectors are good.
     
  10. OnlyVfr

    OnlyVfr New Member

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    Just ordered R/R mosfet technology. 142euro including delivery and vat. I will change it next week when it comes and I will let you know how I got on.
     
  11. squirrelman

    squirrelman Member

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    expensive, guess you just bit the big mortadella, eh ? :eek:
     
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  12. BCAl

    BCAl New Member

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    If you haven't already when you replace the RR do yourself a favour and hardwire the connection for the stator and upgrade the gauge of your wires in the charging system.
     
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  13. OnlyVfr

    OnlyVfr New Member

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    Yeah, expensive, but had no choice. Needed it quick before I leave for hols next week.
     
  14. OnlyVfr

    OnlyVfr New Member

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    First I will see if that was r/r problem. Then if I have time I will do the rest. Wires look healthy , like brand new, connectors clean etc, but it might be worth doing when next oil change.
     
  15. OnlyVfr

    OnlyVfr New Member

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    Update:
    Changed R/R for new one. Before starting the bike up, i measured stator while it was cold. 0.4 Ohms between 3 wires. Then I checked between each yellow wire and negative battery, nothing. Started bike up, started at 12.7V at battery terminals, slowly went up to 13.8V, revved it, stayed the same 13.8V no matter what. Lights off, went up to 14V, sometimes 14.1V. Revved, nothing happens, not up or down. Forgot to check with heated grips on.

    I decided to cut off old plug going from stator to R/R since new R/R came with new plugs and connectors. Installed new connectors and a plug. Started the bike again and checked volts. 13.7-8V. Revving up, no change at all.

    I am not going to take stator out, too much work and very little time. If stator is dying, let it die by natural death :)
     
  16. skimad4x4

    skimad4x4 "Official" VFRWorld Greeter

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    Hmm I hope you are right about the stator, but it is not a huge chore to visually check your stator is OK

    You don't have to disconnect or remove the stator - just buy a genuine Honda stator cover gasket and carefully undo the stator cover bolts and take a quick look inside.
    If you are greeted by an acrid smell of burnt electrical windings and a stator looking like it has been in a deep fat fryer you know you have more to fix.

    If all looks good inside, brilliant - just inspect and if in doubt replace the stator cover gasket, then bolt the stator cover back on and check oil levels. (Note take careful note of what bolts came from what hole as they are not all the same).

    If you do need a new stator then buy an OEM stator or get the old one rewound. All 4 elements of your charging system (battery, RR, stator and loom) need to be in good order and a fault in any one can damage some or all of the others. If your old RR was toast, it may be worth spending a few more euro to buy a Honda gasket if only to have peace of mind that your stator is in good health.

    Summer is coming and the last thing you want is your VFR stranded roadside thanks to another attack of the electrical gremlins.



    SkiMad
     
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  17. OnlyVfr

    OnlyVfr New Member

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    I spent nearly a year renovating this bike, and I am just tired, wanna ride it one day XD and enjoy! Have new fiber glass fairings, sprayed and all, will wait till it dies or do it next winter;-) In regards to old R/R it started acting the bollox last week, so straight away I changed it, and did not ride the bike, cos I did not want to damage battery or stator. We will see how it goes from now. I will keep you updated(when stator goes LOL).
     
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  18. OnlyVfr

    OnlyVfr New Member

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    Little update...I drove today about 100 km in total, engine temp 106C, quite hot. While normal riding, 13.8-14VV, mostly 14V which kept me happy for a while. Then, stuck in traffic, it was going down till it stopped at 12.4V , however, when I am revving it, charging goes up. At least revs=charging works :D
     
  19. squirrelman

    squirrelman Member

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    in traffic and while at idle speed, battery normally gets no charging+ the fan is running, drawing more power.
     
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