New & Improved Politics Thread

Discussion in 'Anything Goes' started by tinkerinWstuff, Jan 31, 2021.

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  1. reg71

    reg71 Poser Staff Member

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    I'd say that's more or less true. Science doesn't know all the answers. I like to say science gives you the likeliest answer given the available evidence at the time. For me, it's more about reproducible experiments and the odds of a particular outcome. Therefore, a test of 30,000 participants with a 90% efficacy tells me that given the evidence at that time, that particular vaccine is pretty darn effective.

    Just to add more fuel I suppose. I believe in 1902 Jacobson v. Massachusetts the supreme court upheld a law that established that individual liberty is not absolute and is subject to the power of the state when necessary. I believe this was regarding smallpox during a particularly bad outbreak.

    It really wouldn't bother me if people chose not to vaccinate, and either remained isolated or put on a mask if they get into a crowded area. The mask isn't perfect, but at least it would show some regard for others who believe that we need to look out for each other.

    To me, their lack of compassion is on display about as much as a hospital that tried to refuse service if you did something stupid. (I'm not saying a hospital did that, just saying, different sides to the compassion coin mentioned earlier.
     
  2. tinkerinWstuff

    tinkerinWstuff Administrator Staff Member

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    Must be some misunderstanding; I don’t believe I claimed leading by example was less effective, I surely didn’t mean to make that claim.

    Biden and Harris publicly criticized the vaccine during the campaign. I believe there were numerous celebrities and talking heads from the news networks that did as well. Video available with a short search on YouTube.
     
  3. cat0020

    cat0020 Trumper

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    When did this occur specifically? which vaccine? which campaign specifically?

    Somewhat irresponsible to make claims without providing evidence to support your claim.
    It's like saying:
    You should stop riding your motorcycle, you're going to kill yourself on a motorcycle, all these videos on YouTube of fatal crashes on bikes.

    If a "short search" is all it needs, maybe post a link to the specific YouTube videos that you refer?
    with the specific time stamps that each celeb & talking heads made claims to criticism of COVID vaccine.
     
  4. reg71

    reg71 Poser Staff Member

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    a short search reveals not that for me:

    1st result : "Biden Slams Trump for pressuring and disagreeing with his scientists on Covid-19 vaccine timeline"
    2nd result: "Biden Criticizes Trump administration speed of COVID-19 vaccine distribution"
    3rd result: "Biden Criticizes TRump over slow COVID-19 Rollout"
    4th result: "US Presidential debate: Trump's vaccine claim vs' Biden's 'no plan' counter"

    Everything I see is criticizing the lack of a place and the contradiction of the scientists, nothing about Trump's Vaccine or it's illegitimacy.
    I wonder if this is one of those "people are saying" things that was only playing in certain news outlets.

    You'd think I would have heard one of my lib friends mention it if it really was a common statement from the talking heads.
    I do remember the second part of your statement about the confusion with the J&J vaccine, but I don't find anything like: "Remember when so many talking heads said they’d never take a rushed “trump” vaccine? The left politicized this issue and is reaping the rewards of it now."

    I wouldn't say the left politicized this issue so much as our current system politicized this issue. Both sides seem to have to jump in with their opinion on everything where politics seems to have no place. IMO it seems like almost everything in our lives, those DC folks want to twist to their own ends and we all know that re-election is pretty much all they care about. Honestly, how many politicians will honestly speak their mind BEFORE they say they are not going to run for re-election.
     
  5. tinkerinWstuff

    tinkerinWstuff Administrator Staff Member

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    can agree with this. There’s no shortage of blame to go around and it doesn’t matter the issue, each side will place a stake in the ground and fight to the death to defend it.

    prime minister Gavin newsom casting doubt on the vaccine:
    https://calmatters.org/health/coronavirus/2020/10/california-panel-covid-vaccine/

     
  6. reg71

    reg71 Poser Staff Member

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    I read the article and watched the video and they both seem very reasonable and mention following the science.

    VP Harris said something to the effect "if Dr. Fauci and the scientists or doctors recommend it I'll be the first in line BUT if Donald Trump tells us to take it I'm not taking it. The BUT makes me think she is meaning in contrary to the recommendation of science, but I can see how if you are a proponent of Trump you wouldn't like her indicating a lack of trust in him.

    Another of my co-workers told us today that his best friend of 25 or 30 years just passed from covid. He was only in his 50s (which is pretty young now that I'm almost there) but he was anti-vaccine for freedom reasons. I wonder if was also anti-flu vaccine. I felt like it wouldn't be appropriate to ask.
     
  7. tinkerinWstuff

    tinkerinWstuff Administrator Staff Member

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    My point was that the left was the first to make the vaccine a political issue and cast doubt on the process.
     
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  8. squirrelman

    squirrelman Member

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    ^^ the idiot trump supporters are the ones who refuse vaccination.
     
  9. squirrelman

    squirrelman Member

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    what evidence do you have ?
     
  10. cat0020

    cat0020 Trumper

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    YouTube video is from OCT 2019, even before the first infection record of COVID in USA, before COVID was declared a pandemic.


    Your point is making vaccination a political issue, your point is not helping people on making sensible decisions whether COVID vaccination is right or safe for themselves.

    You know who is fully vaccinated?
    1. Donald Trump and most if not ALL of his immediate family members.
    2. Every other living US president.
    3. ALL 50 state governors: both GOP & DEM.
    4. Nearly 100% of members of Congress.
    5. 96% of American Physicians.
    6. 75-80% of US military personnel.

    Who's not vaccinated?
    mostly those not vaccinated and dying of COVID.

    If the COVID vaccine is unsafe or ineffective, they would have only given them to poor people before the rich and politicians to have access to the vaccine
     
  11. Gator

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    One thing to ponder is that we have had this many deaths, debilitating long lasting sickness and miles of misery for family's that can't even say goodby and this is with nation wide measures to combat the virus. Can you imagine if like some wanted we just let nature and heard mentality take its coarse? I think the death toll would have been much much worse. Fighting what saves lives is just stupid, a lot of tribalism and the good ole "look at me!" syndrome going on.
     
  12. Waylander

    Waylander New Member

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    Statistics show that 9 out of 10 deaths are now the antivax idiots, if they want to consider their own lives worthless, then who am I to argue?


    VF1000F2F, now rideable,
     
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  13. tinkerinWstuff

    tinkerinWstuff Administrator Staff Member

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    that wasn’t the case in Sweden. High deaths initially and rapidly fell below other developed countries. Currently ranked 43rd in deaths per million population

    Oh yea, but they aren’t the same blah blah blah….

    not that we couldn’t have had measures to battle the virus; what if they had been targeted in areas where it was pervasive instead of trying one-size-fits-all approach
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2021
  14. Gator

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    That is Cherry Picking...... You get my point I'm sure. There would be a LOT more deaths without the measures taken.
     
  15. cat0020

    cat0020 Trumper

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    Sweden has universal healthcare since 2003.

    Quality and quantity of medical care system in Sweden was never stressed to the point of collapse during COVID pandemic because when people get free healthcare, they actually take care of their health problems before they need to go to the ER as in majority of Americans.
     
  16. tinkerinWstuff

    tinkerinWstuff Administrator Staff Member

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    it would be hard to deny that some lives were likely saved in the short term from a covid infection.

    but few were willing to consider the costs to our society including our children. Few were willing to consider the trade offs and deaths from other means. I hope when I’m nearing the end of my life, I’m not so selfish. Measures should have been targeted in specific areas instead of the one size fits all approach that was used.
     
  17. Gator

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    Unfortunately viruses don’t know targeting or who should be in the one-size-fits-all. That’s true with all viruses, smallpox, mumps, rubella, polio and Covid. instead of everybody saying their rights are being trampled it would be a lot more beneficial to the entire world to just do what needs to be done to get past this shit. It has been drawn out way longer than it should’ve been. We all need to get on the same page and get this shit behind us. If we can get heard immunity to the point where people have been vaccinated and the worst consequences are usually just symptoms of having a cold or flu then we can lead normal lives again. Could you imagine if people had resisted getting polio or measles shots like people are raising hell about Covid? The human Carnage would be off the chart. Next up with Covid deaths is 1 million in the United States and that doesn’t count the many millions that have debilitating after effects from this disease. It pisses me off when somebody says “I knew so-and-so and he barely had any effects from having Covid“ like that justifies not getting vaccinated. Have that same person go to the home of the grieving family that couldn’t say goodbye to their father and husband and see if it affects you. Out of sight out of mind is not going to fix our problems.
     
  18. tinkerinWstuff

    tinkerinWstuff Administrator Staff Member

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    The opposite would have been to deploy testing properly and only lockdown in areas where the virus was running rampant and stressing health care systems. Instead we locked down everywhere even places that hadn't seen the virus yet.

    I now more people affected by suicide and addiction than I know affected by a covid fatality. I know one person who spent time in the hospital with covid and fortunately survived without long term affects.

    We should have let people say goodbye to their father's and husbands instead of making risk decisions for them. I can't imagine the psychological damage we did to folks.

    We accept risk in every other part of life but zero covid deaths are tolerable. BAN MOTORCYCLES, TOO MUCH RISK!
     
  19. reg71

    reg71 Poser Staff Member

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    I'm not sure I agree on that. I think it's very difficult to assign who was the first to do anything anymore.
    When you stated "Biden and Harris publicly criticized the vaccine during the campaign. I believe there were numerous celebrities and talking heads from the news networks that did as well. Video available with a short search on YouTube." I think it's a bit of a mischaracterization or at least leaving out some very important bits about what they said.

    As far as all the other message above that I missed, I still say I'm baffled that for the first time I recall as a nurse (widely considered the most trusted profession) we have non-educated (in healthcare) people yelling at us about our medical opinion. In my case, it's based on over 25 years of experience.

    I wouldn't argue with Trump over how to cheat on taxes, because I know he has way more experience than I do at that.

    I just wish the anti-vaxxers would wear a mask in public or not go to crowded places. My dad is in his 70s and very pro Trump, but he is vaccinated and this current attitude from non-medical professionals is really making him question things.
     
  20. tinkerinWstuff

    tinkerinWstuff Administrator Staff Member

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    you suppose it’s possible right leaning folks politicized the vaccine 1st by pointing out how fast free markets brought a successful vaccine to market once bureaucracy was removed?

    I suppose that could have happened before the left saw that a successful vaccine could have given trump a 2nd term and had to start throwing doubt on the vaccine and the process.
     
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