On Linked Brakes - Long

Discussion in 'General VFR Discussions' started by ksoholm, Apr 21, 2017.

  1. ksoholm

    ksoholm New Member

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    Over the years it seems we become subject to various shibboleths, with some of us acting on them to our own misfortunes. One such case is regarding Honda's linked brakes, terrific since LBS III was introduced on the 5th Gen. I am particularly interested in this as I've always loved the system on the two 5th Gens and the 6th Gen VFRs I have owned and own. And I say this humbly declaring myself a relatively expert rider with plenty of track schools and ability with non-linked brakes.

    By way of example: I have been an audiophile for 35 years, though very much an objectivist the last 10-15. In the insane world of audiophilia, there is a condition we call Audiophilia Nervosa, and it is contracted by spending too much time on message boards reading entirely subjective reports by people making contradictory statements regarding extreme gains in sound quality from $1,000 cables or tearing into the equipment and replacing electronic parts for "vast" improvements. The later is particularly goofy, as it is usually done by laypeople without engineering training, who purport to know better than the trained and degreed engineers who designed the equipment to begin with. More to the point, no such subjective audiophile has ever proved any sound quality improvement from such changes or magical cables in blind listing tests. Audiophilia Nervosa is typically manifested by unwarranted, hyper-increased, worry about whether you're missing out on something from your equipment, the focus typically being on making tiny changes and expecting huge gains. However, the typical result of people messing around with the design and specification of the equipment is decreased performance and resale value, though like the Emperor and his new clothes, once someone has been inside their $3,000 preamplifier and changed a bunch of parts, they will never admit this; instead, they will play to the crowd and the prevailing (non)wisdom by declaring huge gains in performance, thereby causing other people to spend lots of money ruining their equipment and chasing phantoms. But, the things that really matter for quality audio reproduction, speaker room placement and speaker quality, are usually somewhat neglected. Moving your speakers around to a more optimal position will affect the sound far more than fiddling around with the electronics, cables, or electronic parts.

    There is of course a parallel to the motorcycling world. Many of us spend all sorts of time adding various doodads and messing with our bikes to "improve" them or make them faster; and sometimes that may even happen. But, what we often forget is that the vast majority of any speed increase comes from increasing riding skills. I was guilty of this when young, always futzing with my motorcycles, scanning magazines for the latest and greatest brake pads, exhausts, air filters, suspension fluid, and so on. What actually made me fast was riding with better riders, but mostly worshipping at Reg Pridmore's CLASS. Pridmore, at 77 years of age, on a stock CBR500 will beat anyone here on any VFR to death around any track; you will never see which way he went. I know, I have been subjected to it. Very humbling.

    The shibboleth in question is that linked brakes are terrible, universally disliked, and particularly disliked by professional moto journalists. This is untrue regarding LBS III as introduced on the 5th generation. The following are direct quotes from magazine reviews of the 5th Gen, to wit:

    From the May 1998 Cycle World VFR800 review:

    LBS III: The Missing Link

    Expert writers may scoff at LBS, but even early iterations had merit. During a 1996 Panic Stop Shootout, I watched car guy Sam Mitani stop an LBS – equipped CBR 1000 from 60 mph in 127 feet – 11 feet less than Don Canet or I (Cycle World journalist Matthew Miles) could manage. Neither Canet or I had applied the brake pedal, focusing instead on the front lever. Hence, we were always treading the limits of front tire adhesion, rather than playing to the system's strengths. Best results, as Mitani demonstrated, came while mashing the pedal and squeezing the lever lightly. In daily use, however, early LBS had its problems, namely hypersensitivity at slow speeds on slippery surfaces. Honda addressed this on the CBR 1100 XX by incorporating a delay valve, but not everyone was convinced. Imagine our surprise, then, when we sampled the latest version on the VFR800. Now, even experts agree, LBS is virtually invisible. Until you need it, that is.

    Article Excerpt:
    ...Those brakes incorporate Honda's third-generation Linked Brake System. In the past, LBS has come under fire from expert riders for lack of feeling and imprecise actuation. For less – skilled pilots, though, such systems offer clear advantages over conventional stoppers, especially in pedal – only braking. The decision to equip the VFR with LBS came down to the availability of an updated, more proficient design that would suit the VFR's sporting mission... On a bike with conventional independent brakes, aggressive use of the front binders will cause the front end to dive, elevating the rear and rendering the back brake all but useless. Hammer the brakes on the VFR, though, and the bike just hunkers down and stops right now. No muss, no fuss. The system works so well, in fact, that locking either wheel is difficult.

    In brake testing, stopping distances were 28 feet from 30 mph, and 118 feet from 60 mph. (Stunning figures for motorcycle even today)

    From the Motorcyclist September 1998 VFR800 review :

    Grab the front brake lever for the next bend and the Interceptor simply squats politely and stops; harder than most non-– number plate equipped motorcycles, and easier than all of them. In theory, LBS has always been thus. In practice, some gnashing of editorial teeth surrounded Honda's first two versions of linked braking, yet the Interceptor's third-generation layout elicits only praise... Further fine – tuning of the hydraulic wizardry in the Interceptor's LBS layout lets just about all but incurable ham fists brake harder with less physical or mental effort than anything on two wheels. Les neurons tied up in the braking equation frees up more for finding the perfect line to the diabolical decreasing radius left dead ahead.

    Well, there it is. Brought to you by Dragon software.
     
    RossR likes this.
  2. Diving Pete

    Diving Pete Member

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    Ok I'll bite - I haven't understood your question but if you gave me a choice of linked brakes or not - I'd take the not every time.
    Does this mean that I'm wrong to not like them?

    No, it just means that I'm different than you.
     
  3. OOTV

    OOTV Insider

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    I actually have no issues with either the 5 or 6 Gen LBS systems, in fact while rebuilding by 01, I decided to keep the LBS, much to the dismay of some folks. A few feel it's the most opportune time to de-link and thought I was crazy for not doing it. To each his own I say and since I don't have any issue with the linked brakes, I'm leaving them as is. If I was building a high performance race bike, I'd probably ditch the system due to the extra weight they add and more finite control independent systems allow but my VFRs are for fun and commuting, nothing to write home about. Although I did drop a few pounds with losing the stock exhaust can, center stand and eventually the stock cat-headers, and that's fine by me.
     
  4. mello dude

    mello dude Administrator

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    Hi - ksoholm -- Well there what is? - the LBS has been debated and beat to death on these forums, but it really doesnt matter. The LBS is not better than separate brakes and separate standard brakes are not better than the linked. (I still hate it, and better is a relative term) Like Pete and OOTV shown, it is a personal taste item and the number one factor still comes down to rider skill.

    MCN does the annual performance work and quite a while ago, Lee Parks was their test rider and an admitted brake skill junkie. While the 5th gen came in around 7th or 8th in the brake testing, guess what bike with real old tech pin slider brakes beat the Viffer? The 700 pound Honda Valkyrie. Showing that the numero uno factor is still braking skill. (I got one, and that sucker will hunker down in a hurry if your want.)

    - btw - I did the delink not because I was looking for better brakes, I did it because I wanted normal behaving brakes, and I can control how much front and how much rear braking that I do at any time.
     
  5. RVFR

    RVFR Member

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    I'm just old school that knows what I want in braking, then add, less is more, and keep it simple. if it works for you good, if it don't luckily there's a fix. I wonder how many before they got a linked brake VFR, how their braking was prior.
     
  6. James Bond

    James Bond Member

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    It's the rider, not the bike, all other things being equal with the bike....as usual.
     
  7. Diving Pete

    Diving Pete Member

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    Oh, nearly forgot.. if linked brakes are so good & this is such a safety issue then why did Honda drop them from the latest generation?

    Basically, Honda gave us mediocre brakes & linked them together so that most of the numpty riders wouldn't notice as their braking skills aren't worth spit. It is a reality that there are a large amount of people who do not use the front brake but this is a training issue & not something that Honda should have tried to force on us.
    IF my bike didn't have ABS, it would have been the very first change I made to the bike - ditch the entire front end, rear suspension & brakes. These are only 'ok' items & show where Honda cut costs.
     
  8. skimad4x4

    skimad4x4 "Official" VFRWorld Greeter

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    It you want a track bike then conventional brakes obviously offer lower weight and more precise feel for those fractions of seconds to be gained by the last of the late braking at the absolute limit of adhesion. Those fractions count if you want to win a race and if your name is indeed Rossi or Lorenzo or you are among that gifted tiny fraction of riders who really can out brake an ABS linked system – then kudos indeed. However track riders know in advance precisely where corners and braking points are, so they really do not need brakes designed to handle the challenges faced by normal riders on public roads, and of course conventional brakes make it easy to do stoppies! Track behaviour should really stay on track. Messing around last second braking on public roads will quickly get you rear ended by some Dillon unwilling or unable to stop for those red lights.

    The VFR is basically a public road use vehicle, so Honda’s decision to equip it with the linked ABS brakes makes sense. If linked brakes are not what you want, then perhaps you bought the wrong bike?

    Every year Honda spend insane amounts on R&D to make bikes safer and more reliable. Linked ABS brakes is very much a consequence of that research as they realised that fitting better brakes could avoid or at least lessen the consequences of many accidents. Their research clearly showed that faced with a totally unexpected hazard, survival instincts cut in for the vast majority of riders who instantly apply a death grip on the front brake. During panic braking, few if any riders think (or indeed remember) to use their back brake and inevitably they collide at higher speed than strictly necessary and they and their bike sustain far worse damage. Personally I know the linked ABS brakes system on my VFR works well. It saved my life allowing me to both panic brake and still steer away from what would have been a certain head on fatal collision if I had been riding my conventionally equipped Suzuki. OK I can live without stoppies but perhaps other riders cannot.

    PS Blame the bean counters and weight shedding for dropping the linked system. However dumping the heavy and mechanically complex C-ABS system was not a decision taken lightly. It seems Honda simply designed a new ABS system which achieves the same linked brake effect electronically using sensors and wiring to do what C-ABS did with hydraulics on the 6th gen. Inherently such is progress and you will find an uprated ABS system is also on the latest Fireblade.
     
  9. James Bond

    James Bond Member

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    Honda can do what they want. Customers will do the same. Honda can force nothing on a customer no matter how logical or cost aware they think they are. There are a lot of great bikes to choose from.
     
  10. John451

    John451 Member

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    The only time I found it a CBS slight hindrance was during advanced rider training in 2005 when performing extended walking pace manoeuvres through grouped together witch hats, while still no problem admit a little more concentration was required Vs a bike without CBS.

    Otherwise for what it's worth I like the VFRs CBS along with the VFRs good engine braking allows me to be a little lazy through tight flip flopping Mountain twisties when on the balls of my feet using the VFR800s linear power keeping gear changes to a minimum and my fun to maximum. :cool:

    Link to simple explanation on Hondas DCBS:
    http://nerdrider.com/?p=35
     
  11. Diving Pete

    Diving Pete Member

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    I think you will find that it's the ABS System that saved you - not the linked brakes. It is the ABS that allows you to steer - not the linked brakes.

    I am all for ABS which is why I haven't pulled the front end however in over 33 years & circa 300,000 miles I've equally never had a use for it... but accept that as a tool it has its uses.
     
  12. ksoholm

    ksoholm New Member

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    There are two things at work here:
    1) You're all men, some middle-aged or older. Ergo you'll never, ever, change your minds, even in the face of actual evidence.
    2) You can lead a horse to water...

    The reviews by professionals were universally excellent; the systems produced incredible stopping distances. But you (plural) likely didn't read the text (see 1 above).

    Linked brakes are expensive; ABS is cheaper and does the same thing better.
     
  13. ksoholm

    ksoholm New Member

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    Proper thinking, and well said.

    But, never underestimate an insurance agent/contractor/school teacher/low-level manager/fill in random job's ability to know better--much better- than Honda's engineers.
     
  14. RVFR

    RVFR Member

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    Here's the thing, I like simple, it also costs less. I also know how to ride pretty good, no bragging, just is. Yes there's been times, but linked brakes or abs or what ever the new tech is wouldn't have saved my ass. Now that said, I think it's cool some of the new tech, but question if it's really necessary. I mean really? we the people as a whole get caught up in the latest greatest gadget that does X faster and better at what cost. Then takes away the learning curve, just a punch of a button, flip of a switch, a re map away, bingo we're all nice a safe, and maybe faster and smoother with no accountability if some thing goes wrong, it's the computers fault. yea right. There's some big $$ in that, and yes the trickle down marketing from Super bike, Moto Gp has more doable, sorta NASA like. But again, is it really necessary or just nice to have cause you can, IDK whatever floats your boat. I like simplicity myself. That and learn how to ride your machine. be a part of it, not just along for the ride. I know I don't care to fiddle&work on that new finagled stuff. The new BMW1000rr in the garage OML. need a nasa engineer degree, that and deep pockets once its fubarred. Ride on.
     
  15. ksoholm

    ksoholm New Member

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    True, I've never been saved by any ABS or LBS in cars or on bikes, but, I ride/drive such that I minimize exposure to situations where panic stops would be needed. The one time I did it--going 85 or so when two deer jumped out in front of me--I quickly had the tail-end of my bike slewing off the ground under max braking. Proud of that, I was. But, it only took 10 or so mph off my speed before launch.

    Another thing: LBS systems like fresh fluid and zero contaminants/air. Knowing how many people don't maintain their machinery properly, such neglect quickly turns LBS systems unresponsive and dead-feeling. How many of you bought 5th Gens new?
     
  16. FJ12rydertoo

    FJ12rydertoo Member

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    ^^^^I agree with part of that, but let's face it, not everyone wants to spend the necessary amount of time to "learn how to ride your machine. be a part of it, not just along for the ride." A lot of people just want to hop on and go for a ride, why do you think Harley's are so popular. And some of us fool around trying to learn a little braking skills, and handling skills, but realize we're the Solieri's of the motorcycle world. So, yeah, I really like the LBS. I have many years of riding, but only middle of the road skills. I play around but never get really, really serious about it.
     
  17. James Bond

    James Bond Member

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    Another truth is that everytime we ride off on a motorcycle, car, or other motor vehicle of any kind (or non-motorized), we put our lives in danger of everything from idiots that can't think and process information, drug addicts and drunks on the roadways, deer, and just "shit happens". No amount of hardware, training, or expertise protects us as the "nanny staters" would like the world to function.
    Just the facts ma'am.
     
  18. PawnBoy

    PawnBoy New Member

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    Are VFR's capable of lifting the rear wheel when stopping? I thought I'd read somewhere that they will stoppie before they run out of traction under braking. In that case, wouldn't that (wheelbase and CG height) be the largest factor in determining stopping distance? Not the linked braking system or ABS? I was also under the impression that the cars and cruisers could out brake sport bikes because they could use all of their traction to brake, without going end over.
     
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