Power commander/tuning

Anyone use a power commander or anything to get a custom tune going on this bike ('14 vfr800)? If so, what were the results? In my car I saw a solid +20hp from tuning for premium...

 

i added a powercommander v and two bros. s1r can, and had it dynotuned by nels in woodinville, wa. went from 96ish hp at the rear wheel to 103. mostly i did it to smooth out the low-speed fueling and the v-tec transition, which it did -- it's like glass now and sounds aprilia v4-level amazing...

 

really? nice! so ~8% power increase at the top end (pretty solid for tuning). When you say low-speed fueling, you mean the jerkyness <10mph?

 

Von, your map would be a good starting point for other owners. Is there a place on this web site to post fuel maps? If not one could paste the numbers into notepad and attach a text file to their post.

 

yeah. still need to feather the clutch between 0-10, but it's smooth above that. dropping to a -1 sprocket in front could help it a bit more. i commute on it too, so having nice smooth low speed throttle response is more important to me than top end.

 

the tune was done by nels dynoworks in woodinville, wa -- i don't have the map. i can ping him and see if he still has it and will share.

 

Most tuners consider this intellectual property and will not release it and may even get upset with you for asking. You can "extract" the file, if memory serves me well, by connecting to the PCV with a laptop running the Dynojet software. When you connect up it reads the data off the unit and then you can perform a "save-as" function.

 

yea, my experience from the car world is sharing maps from a tuner is basically a no go/difficult. i'm more wondering if a worthwhile change was found. seems like there was, so if/when i get a tuner, i'll look for a good tuner in my area.

 

Sharing a PC map is easy. It is merely a table of numeric values that say add or subtract fuel at specific RPM/gear. You do not need any information from the tuner. Also you bought the map and you own the data. Not everyone has a laptop, but if you do:

* Install Power Commander V software on your laptop (or PC III if you have the PC III hardware)
* Connect the computer to the Power Commander via USB
* Open the software and select GET MAP
* The map is a table. Highlight the data then copy the data to the clipboard
* Paste the data into a word processor or Excel.

Yes you can also export the map to a map file to make it easy to share with friends. I mentioned attaching a .txt file only because that is allowed on this site and map files are not.

Someone who has the same bike with the same type of hardware such as slip-on vs full exhaust should see many of the same improvements using your map over the stock tune. No two bikes are alike so a custom tune is best, but it may not make a huge difference if both bikes are similar in setup.

One last thing, you should have a backup of your PC map anyways. The tuner could have provided a backup on USB or via e-mail and that would be the expected thing to do. Otherwise you can back it up yourself. If you buy another bike, upgrade to some future PC VI, or the PC goes bad, you may want a copy of that map to load.

 

It takes only a few seconds to copy or install maps. I'm running Power Commanders Leo Vince map, very smooth through out the rpm range and vetec is much better now. I'll get a custom tune one of these days.

 

This is not always true. Most times the data is the intellectual property of the tuner and that you are "licensed" to use it for your specific application. Having a backup is intended only for the specific case for which it was written. Unless the service contract says "work for hire", chances are the tuner owns the intellectual property. Just something to be aware of.

 

Remember the wall built between Lorenzo and Rossi? They were not sharing mpas. lol

 

Great thread.. just got my PC3, now we'll see how it goes. It's a dance of sorts. though IMO those maps are mine (bikes owners) not the tuners, so if I want to share that's my thing, not his. it's not like it's a photograph where the photographer has the rights in that case they do. all though I can see where some would feel it's the tuners map it's not. be like me taking a disk to a photographer and have them take photos, the disc is mine. The agreement is up front first. if they don't want to take photos, so be it, I'll find someone else. In this case I know Mike won't have any trouble with what ever map I end up with where it goes or shared, it's not like its a trade secret. Yes a back up is a smart to have on hand, ya never know .

 

I tried a shit load of maps on my CBR track bike before getting a custom tune. I have a huge fat curve with power from low through high. Not high peak numbers. Can't beat a custom tune.

 

Imagine a mechanic copyrighting his carburetor adjustment. No one else can use those same adjustments. Does that illustrate the folly of considering the tune intellectual property?

Their process may be protected. Of course defending even that would be an uphill battle without them patenting the process; which they will not do anyway because it only makes the process available in the government archives for stealing (normally by the Chinese.)

Everyone thinks they are special. These people are laborers, like an attorney, an accountant, etc. You pay them, they give you numbers. They have no claim on the numbers.

I would be very interested if someone would ask their tuner, "Can I legally share this tune with friends?" Anyone here with such feedback?

To me, a smart tuner would say, "It won't be ideal for their vehicle, but go ahead, whatever."

A dummy, who thinks he is going to lose business or lose his job will lie and tell you it is legally protected.

The power commander software, which allows the interruption of the fueling, is protected, and may have required licensing from the vehicle manufacturers as well. You may only use the PC for its intended use. However, now that someone made the computer, anything you write on the computer, aka fuel values, is generic.

I can guess that some car tuners lock the ECU, one, because their tune is a generic map and they do not want the customer to know, or two, they do not know what they are doing and do not want the customer to know. But locking it is not a copyright protection.

 

I talked to a friend in California who is a tuner. Said you bought it you own it.

 

I write control system software for a living and all of our projects are licensed for the use in the system it was specifically written for. Imagine if I was to write one program and then the dealer takes that program and uses it for every system he installs that he builds the same way, I wouldn't be in business very long! Unless the client ask for a work for hire, all of the programs we write we own the intellectual property of them. If/when the dealer wants a copy, we change them a small license fee to reuse the program. Usually it's a minuscule amount and gives them a warranty on the system they use the software on. Using this example, the final result of the tuner's work, is akin to what I do, write the "code" to make the specific vehicle (system) function and not additional vehicles (systems).

Imagine this now, someone gets a hold of the program I wrote and then goes off and starts selling this off as his own, and for a cheaper cost. Since he didn't spend any time on writing it, it's 100% pure profit for him! This scenario played out a few times for me. The first time was when a dealer, who did not read our contract started replicating system in a school, where all of the classrooms were basically identical. I found out indirectly and so I reached out to the dealer and told them to cease and desist, which they did. However, they actually offered to pay for the licenses they used. Another time, the person who "stole" our code wasn't able to complete a project and by sheer coincidence, the dealer called us in to finish the system. To my surprise, when I received the code they were given, low and behold it was code that I wrote! Physical work, like adjusting a carburetor is a bit different than an electronic copy of settings as the "analog" way of adjusting a carb is different than an exact duplication of a software setting like for an ECU.

It is not always a cut and dry with software. Sometimes the people who performed the task will lay claim to the end result as their intellectual property, other times they just call it work for hire. YMMV

 

I see your point but thats kind of apples and oranges.

What if I wrote down on a piece of paper how many screw turns on the carb and what jet and needle I used?

 

I completely agree with your code. However, you are comparing software to output. The fuel curve is not the software. The software is DynoJet Power Commander, and whatever version is loaded to the commercial dyno. Then there is the setup of the equipment, which the tuner may have some secret process for. However, all of that gets the tuner more business, but not a patent on the result.

The direct parallel to your case is me cracking Dynojet PC software, making a version that works with all bikes, then handing it out to friends. Now they do not have to buy the software or hardware. This is illegal. Alternatively, Power Commander Software is licensed to work with the Power Commander Hardware. I agreed to this when I bought it.

To extend this to your life, for example, in one job run of your code, your program says, "Towlift, lift the pallet. Move left 3 feet. Drop pallet"

Would you be upset if your client gave what is in quotes above to someone else? It might work for them. It might not. They really need your algorithm to determine what should be done on each of their job runs. Some set of previous steps are generic, and worthless.

I see no difference in analog vs. digital tuning. Four turns of a screw vs. 0.67+ fueling is the same thing, both a generic setting for fueling the vehicle. (Hey Gator yes we agree!)

I will throw in this caveat to make sure you know that I do not support the immorality that has now poisoned generations of people: Just because something is digital and easily shareable, this does not make the act of sharing it right. The sharing of software, music, and videos is wrong. The sharing of the fuel curve is acceptable.

See Gator's example: He asked the tuner about this and their answer was quite clear. Now different tuners may say different things, but I think this guy gave the correct legal answer.

What do you think?

 

i'm certain nels will share. i never bothered to get the map from him.

that said, i'm a programmer by trade and i don't share my code unless asked -- and i charged for it when i freelanced. ;-) a tuner is a coder -- s/he's creating a customized, tailored configuration for a client that they charge for.