Speeding ticket on VFR

Discussion in 'General VFR Discussions' started by Ennsync, Jun 20, 2018.

  1. Ennsync

    Ennsync New Member

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    I was enjoying my ride in a line of three bike , first one 2014 Goldwing , second one brand new white zero electric sport looking , third one me red 2014 VFR 800. dong around 50 in 55 mile zone in staggered formation.my friend half a mile ahead of me notified me on Sena about an incoming CHP from the otherline , and I checked the speed below 55 at that time and I even eased the throttle and by the time Car passed me I was probably doing 50 and followed the CHP on mirror and saw the ford explorer made au turn and turned the blue and red and approached fast ,I even down shifted and slowed down to let them pass me but they stopped us and told I am doing over 79 at 55 mile zone and gave ticket.
    My only fault is riding RED VFR other than that nothing wrong , Full DOT approved gear, shoei helmet , jacket and pans and sidi boots, alpine gloves , I thought he stopped us to give a warning to my friend on Zero that he needs to wear long sleeves . when he told me speeding ticket I was really shocked and still am after 2 weeks.
    I am planning to search to see what my options are.
    does this ticket go to my record ? is it going to increase my rate of insurance.
    what are my chances if I go to court to get dismissal , I should have asked for the print of radar but as said I was shocked .what should I do.
    Thank you , Ride safe/ Ride long
     
  2. Bubba Utah

    Bubba Utah Insider

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    Nothing now but a court hearing. If it goes threw, yes your insurance may go up depending on the company. And yes shocked, but you still should have asked to see or get a print out if they can do that now. Especially since you knew your speed. I am always guilty so I just apologize and ask for a warning. I did lye once and asked him not to call my wife because that would be a worse punishment and it didn't work. (it worked as a kid only difference was calling my parents;-)) One ticket I got years ago, I was guilty but it was on I-15 where I could see the officer after it was to late but argued in court that It was bogus because on the turn you can see miles in front of you and he was very visible and he only ticketed me because I was on a motorcycle, young and was not wearing a helmet (at the time no helmet law). The judge took my side. I would see if anyone you where riding with could go to court with you since you all where in formation riding at the same speed.
     
  3. skimad4x4

    skimad4x4 "Official" VFRWorld Greeter

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    Wow - so how exactly does a CHP officer determine your speed when driving in the opposite direction - is it just officer says "x" so it must be true? Surely your licence plate cannot be seen from the front?

    In most of Europe any sort of guess based approach would not stand up in any court appearance. Basically they need photographic evidence. This would precisely record your speed shown on a radar or laser system together with the photo at the same time showing your licence plate so for motorbikes would have to be taken from behind. For fixed locations they must take two time recorded photos showing the distance you covered in that time. Whatever equipment used, also has to be regularly tested, and recalibrated in line with the equipment manufacturers maintenance regime or tickets issued become invalid.

    Without independent evidence from equipment or at least a second officer present in the vehicle they would not issue a ticket.

    There is a lively British website pepipoo which provides heaps of advice on performance awards and possible ways to successfully challenge them.

    Interesting point - which may rebound on you - did you have a GPS active on the bike or possibly a phone navigation app? Most will actually record your precise location second by second, so you could show what speed you were really doing when said officer stopped you. The downside the file probably records your entire recent trip so it might show enthusiastic riding elsewhere, which might get you in even bigger trouble!

    If the fine is small you may be better off paying it and moving on, and yes some insurers will use this as an excuse to jack up premiums.

    You may just be unlucky, and encountered an officer on a bad day, or one who has not yet achieved their quota.

    Sadly there are bad apples in any profession, just look at this http://www.mauinews.com/news/local-...ets-fine-probation-for-issuing-false-tickets/ So you need to think through the possible consequences of challenging the ticket. If it was in an area where you ride often, you may even find greater scrutiny - as your details might be shared with other officers in the area.
     
  4. Samuel

    Samuel New Member

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    That's a pretty big discrepancy. Do you have any technical proof like Skimad mentioned? Do you remember what the traffic conditions were around you at the time of you seeing the CHP officer? I wonder if it's possible that his radar locked onto another vehicle, possibly a car or larger vehicle that was speeding behind you? Do you remember a vehicle like that? You might try to get written statements from your two friends and submit them with a trial by declaration or possibly have them come to court with you in the hopes of swaying the judge. Worse comes to worst, I THINK you should still be able to go to traffic school - and I think they have online classes now?
     
  5. fink

    fink Insider

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    More fool you for accepting it. Especially after you observing his actions. I would have protested it from the start and would have been asking how he came to his conclusions whilst remaining respectful. I am surprised its taken you 2 weeks to start searching for options to oppose this ticket.
    Half a mile in front is no convoy, over here it would be 3 bikes in about 100 yards.
     
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  6. Nelix

    Nelix New Member

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    If you are absolutely sure you were not speeding, I would challenge it, how did he determine your speed?
    Agree with Fink though, should have challenged when stopped.
    Your bike being red has nothing to do with getting a ticket.
     
  7. 34468 Randy

    34468 Randy Member

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    The side of a road is not the place to argue to a great deal the charge. Question him, sure but don't get into a debate at roadside. You won't win.

    If he was in a moving vehicle then we can eliminate laser. It would have to be radar. For the sake of argument, I will accept your word as gods word and you were doing the speed you say. But like Samuel said, that is one hige difference between 70MPH and 55MPH. It is even quite large if it were KMH. Something is amiss here. A properly trained and experienced officer should....I will say would, be able to realize that the 79MPH reading was either a ghost reading or some other vehicle, likely a vehicle much larger than you and not that far behind you.

    It would appear that every jurisdiction is different but here, an officer can build up his credibility in court for estimating speed . He would do that by first estimating a speed of a vehicle then get a reading to confirm his estimation. Repeating this build his ability to estimate with certain degree of accuracy. Not anywhere near as difficult as one would think. I was able to estimate speed + or - 10 kmh about 95% of the time. I used estimation rarely becasue it was almost guaranteed to end up in court and I did not like wasting my time in court. But my estimated speeds stood the test and was accepted.

    The GPS idea is a great one. It was mentioned that there is the chance that previous speeds may cause you grief. They won't. All it will show is that this particular GPS was itself going a certain speed at a certain time at a certain location. Obviously in or on a vehicle at some point. To cause you grief, the officer would have to prove you were operating that vehicle at that time before that speed can be used as evidence against you.

    Dispute the ticket. I have always agreed with a violators right to dispute my charges and let the Judge, or in our case here, Justice of the Peace, make a decision. I would think you are still well within the time limit for lodging a dispute. I believe you have the ability to do that by mail in California. Don't do that. Go to court.

    Good luck.
     
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  8. reg71

    reg71 Poser Staff Member

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    Agree with Randy. I think you have a good chance if you go to court. If they see you are willing to make an appearance I believe they are more likely to listen to you.
     
  9. Samuel

    Samuel New Member

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    I second what Randy said about roadside arguments/protests - neither the time nor the place. As most of you know, signing the ticket is Not an admission of guilt, it's simply a promise to appear. In CA (mandatory signature state), something you'd probably want to avoid is possibly getting arrested per 148(a)(1) PC https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=148.&lawCode=PEN or 40302(b) VC https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=40302.&lawCode=VEH ...
     
  10. Samuel

    Samuel New Member

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    I saw Fink's comment and just re-read - Half A Mile ahead?! Whoa! At that point, I think you guys were just headed in the same direction (as opposed to riding together)… haha jk ;)
     
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  11. 34468 Randy

    34468 Randy Member

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    Gawd! Do I ever appreciate that I no longer have to dig down and decipher laws and regulations and determine what every word means within and outside the parameters of a law. When are our legislators going to write a law that forces the same legislators to make all wording of laws to have simple everyday meanings.
     
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  12. VFR4Lee

    VFR4Lee Member

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    Where you at? If you can make it go away with traffic school, I would likely do that.
    Having got the shaft from the court on a 90 in a 55 ticket that was complete BS, I would hire a lawyer.
    Whatever BS the cop says is gold to the court, and you are just some random jackass offender.
    FTR, he said he visually estimated my speed from 200? or more yards back. I was at front of a group of 4 riders, all got tix.
    I tried telling that to the judge, talking to deaf ears, I was.
    If you have the choice to go before a real judge instead of some interim or fill in judge, take the continuance and get the real one.
    In fact, always take the continuance, delay does not hurt you, and maybe the cop will forget or no show.
    I would hire a damn shyster. This was > 10 years ago, and still chaps my hide. The bass turds.

    :chaingun:
     
  13. Samuel

    Samuel New Member

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    They have to justify and protect their jobs somehow, right? HAH! :D
     
  14. Samuel

    Samuel New Member

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    Judges are human and have good/bad days too. I've seen almost (I was near the end) an entire traffic courtroom full of people get slammed (no dismissals, no reductions, just about everything was overruled - fwiw, he was really snippy with all the LEOs as well, lol) - dunno if he was having a bad day or he was always like that...

    That being said, I've also seen quite a few cases get dismissed because the LEO didn't show or have any recollection. IMO, of all the agencies that I'm familiar with, CHP has the best show record (they are most likely to be there).
     
  15. Vulcanator

    Vulcanator New Member

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    CHP use radar that can get you if you're moving head to head. The discrepancy is such that there must be some kind of error on his part. The state of California robs you blind when it comes to traffic fines. My alleged 82 in a 65 near Paso Robles cost me just under $450, and that's with traffic school! Traffic school may be the best option if available to you. If you choose to fight it, you're in for an uphill battle. The system of due process and the burden of proof is illusory-it's designed to find you guilty as efficiently as possible.

    Remember, it his word against yours-you will not get the benefit of the doubt-the system has his back-not yours!

    Nolo Press do a book called "Fight your traffic Ticket" that may be of help if lawyering up is not an option. Best of luck to you, and please let the forum know how it turns out for you.
     
  16. 34468 Randy

    34468 Randy Member

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    There is in fact an error in radar and laser. It is called cosine error. (I think I spelled that right. But the error is absolutely alwasy to the benifit of the suspected violator. Radar and laser readings are most accurate when the target is travelling directly at the radar or laser. This gives the shortest distance over ground. But you don't want to stay that way for very long if you get my drift. So the target, approaching the radar/laser gun at an angle covered more distance at the same time and therefore is actually going faster than the reading of the gun. So I seriously doubt this is the cause. I seriously doubt that the radar machine was defective. When they malfunction and still give readings, the readings are really out of whack.

    Again, assuming what our member has posted is god's truth, then I suggest the officer was not really aware of what is in the area causing that reading. A vehicle travelling behind him can be the cause of the reading all depending on how far back and the mass of that vehicle. There are so many things that may have cause this officer to misinterpret the reading. OP's best evidence may be his travelling history in his GPS.

    I was trained to test the radar before and after dealing with a violator. This is a very simple process. It is done with a tuning fork that is designed to creat a specific reading onthe unit. If it doesn't, the machine needs to be sent to the repair depot for recalibrating and recertification. I did not do this after every violator. I did my test at the beginning of shift, and end of shift. If there was an issue at the end of the shift, then every violation I wrote that day would be suspect and I was prepared to pull each and every one of them. Surprisingly, that never happened to me personally. My unit has sent the machines back but it never happened to me.
     
  17. reg71

    reg71 Poser Staff Member

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    I read once that if you call to get a new court date once or twice that the officer likely won't show up and that if he/she doesn't show then the ticket is thrown out. I cannot say that I have ever tested this theory.
     
  18. Vulcanator

    Vulcanator New Member

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    Getting continuances might work, but it's not foolproof. I delayed a case about 6 months due to my deployment to Afghanistan. Sure enough the cop showed up.
     
  19. Bubba Utah

    Bubba Utah Insider

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    I only have one experience with radar guns. I was 17 and stupid Drunk at a concert in Park City. But with my electric personality;-) I was not jailed. I was just left in the police headquarters to give them shit, make some friends and asked if the drug dog I was petting bite me could I get off clean and I would not sue. The answer was NO. So the put me in the captains office to wait to contact an adult to release me to. I had one, my friends brother that came with us and bought us the alcohol. I started to get the spins and threw up all over the captains office. That is where the radar gun comes in. They just decided to take me to the condo we had regardless due to the prior events. The officer that took me must have been on the bad side of the captain because he was laughing about what happened as we drove to the condo. As we drove up to the unit I asked him if I could shoot the radar gun. He said no, but said "do you want to see something funny? I said sure. He aimed it at the condo and it read 17mph. End of a long 28yr old true story!
     
  20. 34468 Randy

    34468 Randy Member

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    I hope you at least got the captains chair with the majority of your protein spill. Maybe a few chunkie projectiles on his paperwork too LOL.

    That can't be the end of this story. What did the old man do when he found out?
     
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